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Old 2006-07-02, 10:42   Link #781
kaki
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Old 2006-07-02, 11:07   Link #782
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
There main excuse is that without these controversial decisions, discussions about football would be more dull,
They were right, weren't they? Maybe the most discussed subjects of the current world cup are the penalty decision in the Italy-Australia game and the 20 cards in the Holland-Portugal game. If you look at the Italy-Australia game, if the Australian player hadn't thrown himself to the ground (I guess his play was more artistically planned than the Italian side's) and caused an undeserved red card for the Italian player, the penalty may not have happened. As far as I believe, I don't think neither decisions were intentional, and as long as that is the case, tricks like that will cause some excitement, and ok up to some level. On the other hand, again imo, Russian referree in the Portugal-Holland game was more damaging to the football than the Spaniard referree. He totally killed the football with his decisions.
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Old 2006-07-02, 11:23   Link #783
tugatosmk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
Dirty tricks shouldn't be the measurement of who wins the world cup, it should be skill.
I see, you're englobing both diving and leg-ripping tackles in the same bag. You shouldn't, because one is violence and the other is just faking.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
And I still don't like Italy for that diving against Australia, that's just cheating. The guy didn't even hit him but he dived like he was a scuba diver just so he could get a penalty.
(Now I understand what you meant earlier by "diving")
Well, that is true. Italy likes to diving, and, unfortunalety, so does Portugal. You're right there, I also don't like it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
And Figo should have been suspended for head butting that guy in the Netherlands game.
So should that guy who hit Cristiano Ronaldo TWICE in the same spot of his leg!, but was he? I'm mean, come on! That was made deliberate and premeditated to injury him!, as we was! Where did Portugal players ever done such a severe and mean thing like that?! Although he was red carded, if Holland went to the finals, he would still play, and he shouldn't.

As for Figo, you're right, he shouldn't have done that, but God knows what that Dutch said to him, and in the heat of that game... And the way you said "head-butt"... come on, that was more of a nudge, he didn't even injury him, but the dutch player made a terrific acting there, I give him 10 out of 10!

And it was the Holland players who started the arguing. But I don't see you saying "Holland players play dirty", as they did on that 2nd half, do I?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
When you're team is playing in a game with the most cards handed out EVER, that means your team could use a bit of self discipline. Not saying Netherlands didn't do anything wrong but when you have 7 cards on your side, you've been fouling like crazy.
You sure picked an abnormal game to use as an example of Portugal's dirty playing... >_<

Sure, this game went to FIFA's record book as the game with the most cards ever. But do you really agree that all those yellow and red cards were correct? Both Portugal AND Holland were harmed by that referees's lack of good judgement.

And did you notice how the "card fest" only started in the second half? Everyone was playing a normal game so far (with the exception of ronaldo's fouling by the dutch player). Suddenly, the referee starts throwing yellow cards for minimal fouls, on both sides! So, both teams started to lose their temper - and what other team wouldn't? And on this matter, Holland went way more berserk than Portugal.

But even in that berserk state, some cards weren't appropriate, for both side! On the other hand, when he should have booked, he didn't. Look at the guy who grabs Deco and throws him to the ground?! He wasn't even booked!!! And Portugal players' are the dirty ones?!

And speaking of records: do you know who used to hold the record of most yellow cards before this game? Brazil...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
And no, other teams don't do that (as much anyways). Look at Brazil Vs. Ghana, almost no cards/fights or anything like that.
There were no cards there because Brazil was cruising on that game. They weren't trying hard, there was no pressure. But if they were in the Portugal/Holland situation, I'd bet they would get a lot more aggresive. I've seen some Brazilian championship games, and they are NOT like that Brazil/Gana game. They're more like the Argentina championship games...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kiva128
Every time there seems to be a fight of sorts it's either Argentina or Portugal in the game from what I've seen. I got nothing against the countries, just their teams need to play with more respect.
Could you provide me some examples? Let me guess: Portugal/France Euro 2000; Portugal/EUA World Cup 2002? sure, those are the examples everyone points out because they're recent. I'm not defending those events, specially the last one.

But even those "brawling" incidents only happened once in those games. Portugal's decades history on international football proves that Portugal isn't the violent selection you believe so strongly.




Basically, foul/brawiling/tackling-wise, I don't think you've seen enough World Cups or European Cups to make such a statement not noly about Portugal but also about the other countries you mentioned.

Sorry, everyone, I just had to say this.
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Last edited by tugatosmk; 2006-07-02 at 14:10.
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Old 2006-07-02, 13:11   Link #784
Bracken33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kinny Riddle
The football/soccer referees, in all their arrogance, has so far refused to fully embrace video evidence as part of the officiating.

There main excuse is that without these controversial decisions, discussions about football would be more dull, citing that Geoff Hurst goal in the 1966 World Cup final between England and West Germany. I simply don't buy that bullshit. Neutral football fans would be happier people if there were less dodgy decisions.
I have read this so often now in many blogs and forums.
The FIFA probably should really add some referees for the sake of causual or hardcore, heartattack endangered fans in the form of two additional referees for each penalty area. Or they could add some sort of video proof.

Personally I am a bit undecided here, because I like the drama .

Quote:
Originally Posted by tug
I see, you're englobing both diving and leg-ripping tackles in the same bag. You shouldn't, because one is violence and the other is just faking.
I dispise the dives more. The violence was probably a failed attemp to play the ball. The faking imho is always cheating and it really ruins the game.
On the other hand there are really brutal tackles, I do not mean those ones.
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Old 2006-07-02, 15:26   Link #785
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So... four teams to go... when was the last time there were four European sides in the semis? It's further back than I can remember if ever at all. I personally would like to see France or Portugal win it because they have played the most entertaining football of the remaining teams. Germany has only played one team that wasn't pure crap and they blew the game because of craptacular substitutions and defensive play. Playing at home is Germany's only strength. Italy is always in there with a chance to win even though they've not looked like WC champions so far. I think actually that both semis are quite open to either team, and probably also the final. But I will be rooting for the winner of Wednesday's game.
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Old 2006-07-02, 17:24   Link #786
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShikaShika
So... four teams to go... when was the last time there were four European sides in the semis? It's further back than I can remember if ever at all. I personally would like to see France or Portugal win it because they have played the most entertaining football of the remaining teams. Germany has only played one team that wasn't pure crap and they blew the game because of craptacular substitutions and defensive play. Playing at home is Germany's only strength. Italy is always in there with a chance to win even though they've not looked like WC champions so far. I think actually that both semis are quite open to either team, and probably also the final. But I will be rooting for the winner of Wednesday's game.
So the swedish team was pure crap, or was it the argentine in your oppinion? Or any other? It is not faire to use such harsh words. That is close to being disrespectfull.

edit: I want to point out, that it is disrespectfull to say that those teams that lost to the german team are pure crap. It does not matter if the german team is weak or not in that context. But there might be people in these forums who are supporters of these teams...

I think the mood in this thread became heated and unfriendly. Whatever happens and happened in the worldcup let us be friendly to each other.

Last edited by Jinto; 2006-07-02 at 19:01.
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Old 2006-07-02, 17:39   Link #787
Anh_Minh
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I'm all for being friendly. Unless we lose. In that case, you can all go to hell.
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Old 2006-07-02, 18:44   Link #788
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin
So the swedish team was pure crap, or was it the argentine in your oppinion? Or any other? It is not faire to use such harsh words. That is close to being disrespectfull.
After watching the Brazil France game,
the victory through penalties against argentina does
make germany seems kind of weak.
Nevertheless since i had money put on sweden, croatia and germany...
germany has to win ^^
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Old 2006-07-03, 10:27   Link #789
Kinny Riddle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sides
After watching the Brazil France game,
the victory through penalties against argentina does
make germany seems kind of weak.
Nevertheless since i had money put on sweden, croatia and germany...
germany has to win ^^
Though Pekerman has pushed the self-destruct button for deciding to go defensive and try to hold out the lead, especially taking out Riquelme and not putting in Messi, this shouldn't take anything away from the usual grit which the Germans seem to rediscover just in time.

So far they are the masters in penalty taking, so Italy would be wise not to hold out a draw and hope for penalties, because it might just backfire on the Azurri instead.
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Old 2006-07-03, 10:34   Link #790
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin
So the swedish team was pure crap
Yes, they were, and as a Swede and supporter of the Swedish team it brings me no great pleassure to admit it, but it's the truth, we were crap for most of the tournament. As for the other teams, pure crap might be disrespectful, but I don't feel bad using the word poor to describe them. Ecuador might have put up a fight if they hadn't fielded a reserve team.

Argentina is so far the only good side that Germany has had to face, and I think it's fair to say they beat themselves out of the World Cup, or Pekerman did at least. Had they played the most offensive lineup available to them I doubt we would be seeing four European sides in the semifinals. Swedish tv even reported that German sports papers printed headlines like "thanks for the invitation" in regards to Pekerman's tactical substitutions, so no confusion there either. Though Abbondanzieri's injury was bad luck, and didn't help.
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Old 2006-07-03, 11:45   Link #791
Jinto
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Since Torsten Frings was actively involved in the scrapping with the players of Argentina, he has been suspended for the next game against Italy.
One important midfield player down will compensate for playing at home this time.

The german team was terribly beaten (1:4) by the italian team in a friendly match not long ago. So I'ld say this match will be really interesting. The italian team has never been beaten by a german team in the WC history. But on the other hand, the german team never lost in Dortmund.
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Old 2006-07-03, 12:43   Link #792
Bracken33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShikaShika
So... four teams to go... when was the last time there were four European sides in the semis? It's further back than I can remember if ever at all. I personally would like to see France or Portugal win it because they have played the most entertaining football of the remaining teams. Germany has only played one team that wasn't pure crap and they blew the game because of craptacular substitutions and defensive play. Playing at home is Germany's only strength. Italy is always in there with a chance to win even though they've not looked like WC champions so far. I think actually that both semis are quite open to either team, and probably also the final. But I will be rooting for the winner of Wednesday's game.
Four european teams in the semifinals for the last time was 1982 (moderator said so).

I agree that the argentinian coach helped us a lot. I really thought it was game over after 0:1. But coaches are part of the game, and Juergen´s sibstitutes were fine again ...

What I cannot agree with is that germany is bad, and only faced crappy opponents. We scored more goals than any other remaining team for example.
And our defence allowed even Argentina to have only very few good chances. After the opening match against Costa Rica Lehmann almost had to make no safes during the whole tournament. Either the ball was in the goal, or he was jobless.

I also believe that Italy so far had to play against the easiest opponents, not germany (ko round). But that does not mean, that I believe the italian team is weak in any way. Germany has got a poor record against them.

My predictions:
All remaining teams pretty much share the same strengths: Good teamspirit, good tactics and coaching.

The french imho will win the cup, because they have got a real genius among their ranks, and have finally found into the tournament.

They will abvioulsly meet Germany or Italy in the final. I hope it is Germany, but I am not bold enough to predict it will be germany...

I have got the least trust into Portugal, imho they do not have enough penetrating power. They will face teams with rock solid defence.
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Old 2006-07-03, 18:02   Link #793
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Under normal conditions I don't expect Germany win against Italy - not because of playing better (neither play at the expected level) but more like playing a bit dirty and making the game a bit dirty along the way - Italy is definitely better than Germany in that aspect.

But, who knows, with Beckenbauer backing them and continuing to push a little from behind the scenes (just like Platini) in addition to the support from the majority of the crowd, Germany might obtain the upper hand by twisting the referree to their sides during the game. In a deadlocked game, referree's decisions usually affect the game at some level.

Regarding France-Portugal game, even if Portugal cannot penetrate France's defence, Portugal will not allow France do that either. Hard fouls wait for us in that game, and I believe France will be affected the most from that. Also, we will see whether Zidane will continue to keep his form or not. But it is really interesting that a country that is highly affected by the anti-immigrant waves is represented with that many immigrants under the command of another. I hope, if France wins the cup, they either feel a little bit embarrassed or not celebrate at all.

Edit: I just saw in the news. I can understand a player playing dirty in the heat of the moment, but I really wonder, how can someone explain the "collective effort" or the initial struggle to suppress the news on Frings hitting another player and try to eliminate all the information that will help find guilt in the Germany side?

Last edited by Sazelyt; 2006-07-03 at 20:34.
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Old 2006-07-03, 22:21   Link #794
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
But it is really interesting that a country that is highly affected by the anti-immigrant waves is represented with that many immigrants under the command of another. I hope, if France wins the cup, they either feel a little bit embarrassed or not celebrate at all.
1) What anti-immigrant waves? We're not nazi Germany. Racism exists, but it doesn't dominate our society.
2) All the more reason to celebrate and remind everyone that those immigrants are French in every way that matters. As in 98, the French team is full of poster children for integration.
3) Why should I and all the other non-racists out there feel embarassed?
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Old 2006-07-03, 22:51   Link #795
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh
1) What anti-immigrant waves? We're not nazi Germany. Racism exists, but it doesn't dominate our society.
2) All the more reason to celebrate and remind everyone that those immigrants are French in every way that matters. As in 98, the French team is full of poster children for integration.
3) Why should I and all the other non-racists out there feel embarassed?
I believe, my comments were directed towards people that were thinking anti-immigrant kind of way (like assuming they are living in the 50s-60s of America). And, even if that way of thinking may not dominate your society, it doesn't look that way from the outside (especially with the support your next Prime Minister gets). I hope people like you were trying their best to make your kind of thinking enter the skulls of some hardly penetrable ones that think in a highly damaging and discriminating kind of way.
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Old 2006-07-04, 01:30   Link #796
Jinto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Edit: I just saw in the news. I can understand a player playing dirty in the heat of the moment, but I really wonder, how can someone explain the "collective effort" or the initial struggle to suppress the news on Frings hitting another player and try to eliminate all the information that will help find guilt in the Germany side?

Well its a topic in our media for some days now (don't know how such information is handled where you live). Italian TV had shown the incident. According to FIFA, they found the evidence material themselves (and were not told to investigate by the italian team for example).
Afaik there was no try to eliminate information and/or evidence either. Reading the news on www.fifa.com will provide you the latest news for that matter.

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/060702/1/8ipe.html

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/060703/1/8izd.html
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Old 2006-07-04, 02:34   Link #797
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin
Well its a topic in our media for some days now (don't know how such information is handled where you live). Italian TV had shown the incident. According to FIFA, they found the evidence material themselves (and were not told to investigate by the italian team for example).
Afaik there was no try to eliminate information and/or evidence either. Reading the news on www.fifa.com will provide you the latest news for that matter.

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/060702/1/8ipe.html

http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com/06/en/060703/1/8izd.html
Thanks for your information, but neither talks about the source of the videotape (If I didn't miss a line).

I heard the news in the Turkish media (although not where I live currently), from different sources, that the videotape was brought by the Italians and the German TVs and newspapers didn't give place to that information - considering the Turkish population in Germany, I assumed it to be a rather reliable information. And this information normally translates to hiding the fight-related information (and let me remind you that what FIFA used against Turkey for the Switzerland game was mostly Turkish origined - our guys,TVs,newspapers did a perfectly honest job of giving every details from all the angles from the first minute the events took place, Italians might consider this at the level of stupidness, but I really don't care). Anyway, we were told that in your media the blame was mainly put on the Argentina side.

For the source I don't know, Senes Erzik might be the source for that - and if he is, he is highly reliable. Anyway, if FIFA avoids mentioning about the source, the hometown of the games and lobbying of Beckenbauer came to my mind to avoid putting the blame on the German side.

If you find any new information on that, I would be glad if you can post it here.
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Old 2006-07-04, 03:28   Link #798
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It's not the easiest matter on the world to explain, anyway I'll try.

Italian pay per view television, "Sky" , on sunday morning brought out proofs that the german player Torsten Frings had hit with a "punch" the argentinian Julio Cruz, in the agitated post-match Germany-Argentine.
In a first stage, FIFA said they wouldn't consider that, because, as per FIFA rules:

- Clips and images from private televisions do not make a source for making decisions about disqualifying players and such.

(Note that this is different from UEFA's rules, which allows that (see Totti disqualified 2 years ago after match vs. Denmark after tv shoots of a private danish network))

And the case was closed.

Later, members of Fifa's commission realized that those images were being shown by a local german television, which I believe to be the official tv source, the only one to which Fifa can relate to .
When inquired for, "Sky" television confirmed : <<Yes, those are not our images, we just took them from german broadcast>>
Once Fifa had learned that, since now the images were no more to be considered from a private source, started the inquiry towards german midfielder, Torsten Frings.

Italian Federation (FIGC), never put a toe in this matter, never they talk to Fifa on this matter nor they dreamed of asking penalization for opponents, not willing to bring a poisoinous and obnoxius atmosphere for such an important and delicate match.

But Fifa had already started the inquiry and Frings was considered guilty of "a possibly aggressive behaviour" and he was disqualified for 1+1 match. Where the one is the semifinal and the +1 will apply in the next sixth montht if the player will repeat a similar behaviour once again.

Fifa seems to be regretting this decision a lot, since the hatred it has put towards Italy, especially by german newspapers. And also considering that us italians, didn't ask for anything.

And so it is as things went. As for germans hiding facts, well, germans will be more precise than I could. I told facts from Italian side.

I personally, as italian, couldn't care less if Frings was of the match or not. Frings, or any other german player. To speak frankly, I would have preferred to see all the 23 players available on both sides. Because I like to see matches decided inside the court and not outside it.

Football should be a serene and exciting competition, but it can't manage to be. It should unite people. But with just some little exceptions, it divides. It divides in a bad way. Only in this thread I've read a real tense atmosphere.
I agree with Jinto Lin, whom I admire since he seems to have the same way of viewing football I have: it's not a life or death thing. It's less, and less, and less. (period.)

I've read a lot of mean and not always justified things towards Italy, which I didn't even bother to reply. Because, when a sport is not taken easy in the first place for what it should be, then there's no even room for discussion, for me at least.

When will peoples realize that this is just a SPORT ? Wishing for such a day, I hope that tonight match will be correct, though I think the atmosphere has already been polluted, and it won't be 100% serene to start with. And I really was hoping such a thing wouldn't happen. But it's happened, and it's very sad.

May the best team win , withouth further polemics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinto Lin
I think the mood in this thread became heated and unfriendly. Whatever happens and happened in the worldcup let us be friendly to each other.
Quoted for truth.
And please notice this is coming on the immediate pre-semifinal , from a german and from an italian
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Old 2006-07-04, 03:42   Link #799
Jinto
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Thanks to Pellissier for the detailed information.

I want to explain how I observed the incident in our german media (maybe it is of interest for you Sazelyt).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Thanks for your information, but neither talks about the source of the videotape (If I didn't miss a line).

I heard the news in the Turkish media (although not where I live currently), from different sources, that the videotape was brought by the Italians and the German TVs and newspapers didn't give place to that information - considering the Turkish population in Germany, I assumed it to be a rather reliable information.

WMV stream containing the information about the FIFA, that has opened proceedings against Torsten Frings. On july 2nd (the same day it was decided by the FIFA)

I want to point out, that this newscast has the highest audience rating (regarding newscasts only). I also remember I have seen the concrete video material the same day on a TV news channel.

I have a quote here in german (FIFA Director of Communications Markus Siegler) regarding a question, whether italian media is responsible for the proceedings against Frings.

FIFA-Mediendirektor Markus Siegler: ęDie Bilder sind von einem deutschen Ųffentlich-rechtlichen Sender ausgestrahlt worden, und die richtigen Leute haben sie gesehen.Ľ

It basically says, that a german TV channel broadcasted the material, and that the right people (FIFA employees meant) have seen it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
And this information normally translates to hiding the fight-related information (and let me remind you that what FIFA used against Turkey for the Switzerland game was mostly Turkish origined - our guys,TVs,newspapers did a perfectly honest job of giving every details from all the angles from the first minute the events took place, Italians might consider this at the level of stupidness, but I really don't care). Anyway, we were told that in your media the blame was mainly put on the Argentina side.
All that was known so far is, that an italian TV station had the video footage of the incident. If there have ever been other sources was not known (at least to me). So all I could do at this point is speculate whether someone tried to hide something or not.
If you have concrete proof of such actions I'ld like to hear it, because I don't like such a double standard behaviour either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
For the source I don't know, Senes Erzik might be the source for that - and if he is, he is highly reliable. Anyway, if FIFA avoids mentioning about the source, the hometown of the games and lobbying of Beckenbauer came to my mind to avoid putting the blame on the German side.

If you find any new information on that, I would be glad if you can post it here.
It is hard to find some news in english language...

Though the original material first seemed to be italian, but according to Markus Siegler there was no intend of the italian media to enforce proceedings against Torsten Frings.

I assume the german/italian material became known to a bigger german TV-station one or two days after the match, and they have published it.

So the chain of media seems to be like this:

small public german TV-station => italian Sky => bigger public german TV-station

Directly after the match, the blame was mainly put on the Argentina side. That makes sense, because they started that skirmish. The material was not available to the german media at this time, at least not to the bigger TV-stations (it became available later on).

That is basically all I know about this matter (and it might be biased because of my sources of media I read and have seen in TV, but I hope that is not the case.)

edit:

Congratulation Italy

Last edited by Jinto; 2006-07-04 at 16:29.
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Old 2006-07-04, 16:35   Link #800
raphaŽl
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*sighs...

Maa, whatever, France will get the cup eventually.
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