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Old 2004-06-09, 09:14   Link #61
Kyuven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaic
True, however my point was that, even if they are becoming cliché, there's a hell of a lot more of them out there then ever before. I wouldn't call them new though. If anything, it's the "non-related family member" twist on things that's new. Before, we just tended to get brother/sister and cousins. Angel Sanctuary anyone?
i don't think Angel Sanctuary should be used as an example in any sort of romance.
that show was so messed up it had me wide eyed (wanting more, of course, worst ending for an anime series EVER) and shocked after watching it
it was my first real taste of incest, homosexuality, cross dressing, AND religious themes all in one anime (i watched Angel Sanctuary before Evangelion...weird huh?) and it tasted weird...weird i say...WEIRD
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Old 2004-06-09, 10:53   Link #62
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Well, the OVA really didn't do the manga justice. Seriously, Tenshi Sanryouku's a 20 volume work, and there were how many OVA's? 2 or 3? Did they even go through the whole story, after
Spoiler:


But then, I'd probably have a lot less shocked reaction than you did to anything like that. Besides being a fan of Boogiepop (And I don't just mean the Boogiepop Phantom anime series. Seriously, go and watch the live action, there's a torrent here for it.) and Lain, I also have very no problem whatsoever with romantic incest, along the lines of Koi Kaze or Tenshi Sanryouku (Though all those recent shoujo-incest ones are pushing it a bit. Whoever knew Shoujo could get so smutty?).

In any case, I'm rambling....why can't it be used as an example of romance? Their romance was the entire driving plot!
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Old 2004-06-09, 11:44   Link #63
Kempis Curious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuun
Err...guys can i post my poem around here regarding Love and relationships?

...

Thus, i have no problem with all this forbidden relationships...^^ wahh...i'm such a happy dude... says "V"!!!!

Thanks for posting that, it was a good poem.

I'm opposite to that, though. Platonic feelings work fine for most of the benefits of love, and romantic love should only be entered into with eyes open to the risks to yourself and society. If you find yourself attracted to your teacher/sister/robot you shouldn't act on those feelings.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

-k
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Old 2004-06-09, 13:04   Link #64
Arwyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempis Curious
I'm opposite to that, though. Platonic feelings work fine for most of the benefits of love, and romantic love should only be entered into with eyes open to the risks to yourself and society. If you find yourself attracted to your teacher/sister/robot you shouldn't act on those feelings.

Maybe I'm just getting old.

-k
Well im probably closer to geezer status than you, so I can understand where your coming from, but I sort of disagree on a couple of points.

Student/Teacher (a la Onegai Teacher) is semi-naughty, but really not all that scandalous anymore. I'm not saying its healthy, its just less shocking these days. At the ages the characters were in the series, its really not that big of an issue. Kei being 18 meant there really wasnt that much of and issue there, after all, 18 means your an adult in a lot of places, so the whole student/teacher thing isnt that shocking in that situation. Now purely from a cultural standpoint, if the roles had been reversed, and Kei had been the older one, folks would have gotten a lot more upset about the series, or if the ages were more like 14 and 40, then it would REALLY be an issue.

On the other hand, if they were in a college setting, this wouldnt even be an issue. So as far as material for a series, I think is fair game. It might be slightly naughty, but as long as it steers away from being lecherous its not that much of an issue.

Family attraction- Ok, now this one is much more problematic. While Onegai Twins managed to dance around the issue, and turn it into a situational comedy, there were still some disturbing issues that the anime skirted around. The current fad in anime/manga with semi-incestous relationships is certainly driven by a desire to shock folks, and generate sales, but its still disturbing. These kind of relationships ARE scandalous because just about every culture on the planet sees them as forbidden/taboo/disgusting. While Twins managed to keep it the creepier parts of the subject at arms length, some other recent series have definately pushed the comfort zone on the issue, with the current plot excuse being "but they are not blood related" if things get really serious. Then you have Angel Sanctuary which IS just flat out incest.

So Im with you on that one, this is one that should be left alone.

Robots/Androids- Face it, the minute they come up with functional AI that can intereact with humans normally, someone is going to do something perverted with it. Of the three subjects you mentioned, this is the safest of the three. After all, if your obsessed with your robot, who really is impacted? Now, if these are thinking and feeling beings, that presents a whole different moral/ethical dilemma, outside of the whole issue of having the hots for a household appliance.

Honestly, I think the whole robot angle is simply a way for the authors to dodge a lot of issues around being semi-exploitative without causing folks to get upset. At the same time, the typical plot is often "owner using robot badly and falling in love over time", which in and of itself is probably a valid plot device.

When you break it down to its simplest elements;

1) Hot for Teacher- ok, admittedly, how many folks had some adolescent crush on a teacher growing up? This one is a fairly safe fantasy plot device. Kept within reasonable bounds like Onegai Teacher, this really isnt that naughty.

2) Hot for sister- no way. This is definately NOT safe territory. While Twins kept this within reasonable bounds, Angel Sanctuary didnt. Now, I'm not saying that those shows/manga should be banned, its just really really creepy. And thats just the "blood related" angle, Im not event touching the whole "hot for step-sister" angle, that just gets way to damn complex to cover in short post.

3) Hot for robot- I really dont see this as being a big deal. No one would even blink if it was a fantasy scenario and someone fell in love with an elf, so how is that any different from an android? Hell this is the whole premise to Chobits, and I cant really recall anyone getting freaked out about the underlying romance in that series. Pretty safe subject.
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Old 2004-06-09, 16:16   Link #65
Kyuven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn
3) Hot for robot- I really dont see this as being a big deal. No one would even blink if it was a fantasy scenario and someone fell in love with an elf, so how is that any different from an android? Hell this is the whole premise to Chobits, and I cant really recall anyone getting freaked out about the underlying romance in that series. Pretty safe subject.
maybe it's just the fact that in most cases when you think of robot and love in real life standards, you think of vibrating objects...
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Old 2004-06-09, 16:32   Link #66
Arwyn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuven
maybe it's just the fact that in most cases when you think of robot and love in real life standards, you think of vibrating objects...
Its worse than that, go take a look at this thread;

http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=14551

If the otaku types are willing to shell out thousands for a life size anime doll, what do you think will happen when they could BUY a real lize anime character?

If the robots/androids ever got advanced enough, humanity is extinct soon after their invention. After all, why put up with another person when you can have your own personal Chii/persocom/robot/android/whatever?

Yeah, there are can be some disturbing undertones to the whole robot thing, but there would be some marked advantages as well, if all the scary/psycho/sex fiend/social misfit types are hooked up with robots, that makes dating safer for the rest of humanity.

The flip side to that, pity the poor robot sitting on the shelf when some of these folks come in to purchase........

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Old 2004-06-10, 14:46   Link #67
Kempis Curious
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn

1) Hot for Teacher- ok, admittedly, how many folks had some adolescent crush on a teacher growing up? This one is a fairly safe fantasy plot device. Kept within reasonable bounds like Onegai Teacher, this really isnt that naughty.
I agree that on the scale of naughty this is "not too", but too many people have been hurt by superior-subordinate romances. It can go wrong if the superior uses his/her authority to intimidate the subordinate. It can also go wrong if the subordinate blackmails the superior or otherwise uses the relationship to get things he/she hasn't earned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn

3) Hot for robot- I really dont see this as being a big deal. No one would even blink if it was a fantasy scenario and someone fell in love with an elf, so how is that any different from an android? Hell this is the whole premise to Chobits, and I cant really recall anyone getting freaked out about the underlying romance in that series. Pretty safe subject.
I disagree. When you enter a relationship with someone, you two become a "couple" which affects the other people around you, especially your family. They will feel alienated when they can't interact with the "object of your affections". If you really love someone you should have to insist that your friends and family accept them.

I think Chobits illustrated this well in with the woman whose husband left her for the persocon. She was properly devastated.

-k

curious
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Old 2004-06-10, 15:02   Link #68
kruono
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Talking

hi all

2 girls in love this time ...... It can be cool

But will this third as good as the first 2 season ?


Bye .....



http://www.10anskaze.com/kaze/sites/...YJqIO8Vu31MsTt
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Old 2004-06-11, 12:23   Link #69
Yuun
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Hmm...actually there's an old saying thats go like this... "As long as you Love each and another, Who cares what other may think?"

But nowadays this saying is really getting too old...either way i still believe in this old saying... and at my view of point...being a audience that witness this...err...how to say arr...Forbidden relationships, is better not to get urself involve...by saying bad and negative words about them...cause you might cause misunderstanding and bad result or consiquenses might occur...just watch with mouth shut is the best...hehe~ :P

Hate to say this but Family with Family members relationship is kinda comman here at my place...and that they don't care much...There's 1 guy that married 3 wives and you know wat?? All the 3 wives is Sisters!!!!

But do u think a relationship between a Oniichan with his Imoto would be THAT BAD ar?? I've always wish that i might have this kind of relationship...hehe~ am i too open minded around here?
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Old 2004-06-11, 18:52   Link #70
Sanjuronord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arwyn
If the robots/androids ever got advanced enough, humanity is extinct soon after their invention. After all, why put up with another person when you can have your own personal Chii/persocom/robot/android/whatever?
You make it sound like a bad thing.
Would see a decline in new births but by no means extinction (after all if we've got robots we'll probably have test tube babies too). Not until the robot sex slaves develop AI anyways, then things will be very bad. An army of half clothed chii's kill the remnants of mankind. That day shall be called Abstinence Day...
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Old 2004-06-12, 02:54   Link #71
Kyuven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kempis Curious

I disagree. When you enter a relationship with someone, you two become a "couple" which affects the other people around you, especially your family. They will feel alienated when they can't interact with the "object of your affections". If you really love someone you should have to insist that your friends and family accept them.

I think Chobits illustrated this well in with the woman whose husband left her for the persocon. She was properly devastated.

-k

curious
one of the underlying themes of Chobits was "can a machine be human?"
i.e., if it displays human emotions, does that make it a living thing?
i mean, robots (persocoms) can "die," they require "food" (electricity), and are definately capable of rational thought, and in Chii's case, can even display emotions
what separate's man from machine in worlds like chobits is only that persocoms are made of metal and synthetic skin, and humans are made from flesh and bone (and less sophisticated models have no emotions)
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Old 2004-06-12, 16:30   Link #72
DarkCntry
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I see this went several different ways before I could reply...but I will throw in my couple of small copper coins...

Anime is built upon specific themes lately, because they (the producers/creators) know they will sell. Notice that harem-comedies took a lot of stride in the last few years thanks to the success of Love Hina. Chobits' Human/Computer also took a standard genre cliche and ran with it, to a great success.

The whole cliche thing for animes is that if it will sell they will keep doing it...the Onegai series is a perfect example of fitting into these genres and doing the best that the specific genre can pump out. Teacher did the whole Teacher/Student taboo but played it down by putting Mizuho fairly young and having Kei have an illness that only makes him look younger than he is. Twins, that was the whole incest thing that was thrown around...even had a bit of lolita-style to it. They played it in a way that wasn't graphic or offensive and then towards the end they changed the character's attitudes when they found out who was really the related ones, so in a way it worked out without going overboard. Lord knows how they will do Friends, it could be a yuri experience played down or they might have a much broader genre they want to stick to. But I have noticed the Onegai series does poke fun at these taboo's, take Teacher and towards the end of the series when the whole student/teacher thing really kicked in with another set of characters. In Twins the same thing happened, with you possibly getting the feeling that maybe they were all somehow related due to the common history. It's all a play on these and a marketing ploy that undoubtedly works.

Personally, my only qualm with the Onegai series are these tiny little ones...one, Bandai needs to stop translating the titles because now they are just not making sense (really, Please Teacher does have some form of making sense, but Please Twins or Please Friends?), and two, they need to actually find an ending for each of them that actually ends. :P
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Old 2004-06-13, 00:03   Link #73
Kyuven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DarkCntry
.

Personally, my only qualm with the Onegai series are these tiny little ones...one, Bandai needs to stop translating the titles because now they are just not making sense (really, Please Teacher does have some form of making sense, but Please Twins or Please Friends?), and two, they need to actually find an ending for each of them that actually ends. :P
...and Onegai makes any more sense? "Onegai" translates almost 100% into "Please"
plus the company is called "Please!", so in reality it makes a good deal of sense to change "Onegai" to "Please", since, to people who know about as much japanese as a rock, the word "Please" creates more brand-awareness
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Old 2004-06-13, 01:37   Link #74
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I heard from one my friends who has friends who have friends who know a bit about the OFriends storyline. Believe me or not.

OTwins is apparently not going to take place in the same time frame as OTwins or Oteacher. Infact it will be based upon the storyline of Mizuho+Kei's, and Karen+Maiku's kid having a relationship which evolves from a friendship.

Well thats all i was ablt to squeeze out of him. I'm not sure if he's telling the truth. sorta makes sense... i guess. And i doubt it would go in the direction of something "homosexual" since both series appeal to males who have dreams about meeting perfect or meeting women in general. (Oteacher WAY more then Twins).

I Loved OTeacher, I absolutely loved OTwins. I have everything Oteacher, including the bed sheets and other things (manga, novel, posters, music, DVD's) and i'l buy all the otwins stuff when it comes out.
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Old 2004-06-13, 01:41   Link #75
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuven
i don't think Angel Sanctuary should be used as an example in any sort of romance.
that show was so messed up it had me wide eyed (wanting more, of course, worst ending for an anime series EVER) and shocked after watching it
it was my first real taste of incest, homosexuality, cross dressing, AND religious themes all in one anime (i watched Angel Sanctuary before Evangelion...weird huh?) and it tasted weird...weird i say...WEIRD
If you are interested by Angel Sanctuary OVA, you GOTTA read the manga! It's definitely one of the best, most beautiful manga out there, with all kinds of great romance stories, including incest, homosexuality, BDSM and more!
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Old 2004-06-13, 02:13   Link #76
Kyuven
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
If you are interested by Angel Sanctuary OVA, you GOTTA read the manga! It's definitely one of the best, most beautiful manga out there, with all kinds of great romance stories, including incest, homosexuality, BDSM and more!
i actually am reading the manga
maybe i've become jaded, but it didn't have half as much shock value as the OVA had...even though the manga makes more sense on about 1000 levels -_-
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Old 2004-06-13, 04:00   Link #77
DarkCntry
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Well my point is that while Onegai does literally translate to Please, it at least audiably sounds more reasonable than Please would in a title like that. I dunno, it just doesn't have the same feeling saying them aloud I guess.
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Old 2004-06-13, 06:05   Link #78
bluemist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyByNite
Maybe that girl talking with Maiku at the end of Twins is one of the Yuri couple...
look at these art/fanart of Onegai Friends:
http://www.bigbutton.com.au/~annon/p...ds/top110c.jpg
http://www.moonphase.cc/commonCG/20040529.jpg

then look at these scenes from the Onegai Twins OVA:
Spoiler:


Are they the same girl? It would be cooler if it were. Imagine the riot: Girl X loves Girl Y but Girl Y is falling in love with Maiku, hehe then Miina and Karen with their Love Alliance crappiness would steal the scene everytime!
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Old 2004-06-13, 09:36   Link #79
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It'll probably be about some friends that fall in love with eachother or something Hope it'll be as good as the other Onegai, I'm looking forward to it
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Old 2004-06-13, 11:40   Link #80
Kensuke
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bluemist: It could be, it may just could be possible that those are same girl. I like the idea that the last moment of Onegai Twins was a kind of prelude to third series.
But then again, not much was shown that girl, and that scetch is black-and-white.
Anyway, I'm waiting for official information about this series, like when it will air.

I wonder if amount of fanservice is going to follow the trend, Twins has more fanservice than Teacher, if so, Friends will be .
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