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View Poll Results: Lolicon, lolicon. Ok or not?
Yes. it's ok. There's no harm, it's just a drawing. 36 42.35%
Don't care, or I'm on the fence about this. 31 36.47%
No, it's hurtful to anime and/or real life children. 18 21.18%
Voters: 85. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 2004-06-02, 13:42   Link #41
Thany
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Now that you mention it, I've edited my posts, must be tired o.O
And I never said I didn't agree about the fact about Rei : she seems to be quite a popular character in 4chan (must be the reason I hate her sooo much, she is overly overused!).
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Old 2004-06-02, 14:13   Link #42
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Loli is under 16. It's a lable given to the taboo of infatuation/love of a girl that is supposed te be too young. America, for example, considers anyone under 16 to be too immature for such a relationship. So that's where the line is. There is no minimum age when it's looked at this way.

There may be different types of lolicons who set their own minimum age so they can feel like they are better than the guys who like girls that are "too young" or something, I don't know.

Rei counts as a loli. She was 15, right? I know the characters were all a specific age to pilot the Evas. I understand that it is debatable as Rei is about as physically mature as a character can get in anime. Appearance is the main trait of a loli character but depending on why the lolicon is a lolicon, a character said to be under age but looks completely mature counts too. If the reasons are less about young cuteness, and more of virginity or something.

I suppose this can be argued forever as even people grouped together under the lable "lolicon" are all individuals and have their own ideas and reasons.
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Old 2004-06-02, 14:40   Link #43
mantidor
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As I said in my first post, this is simple...pedophilia

for what all you've said you can say lolis are characters who look underage(sometimes too little, like seven year old >.<;;; ), and may or may not be actually underage; or characters who look sexually atractive, (like big breasts and accentuated curves) but are underage anyway I consider that both of this definitions belong to the "loli" genre.
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Old 2004-06-02, 14:53   Link #44
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantidor
As I said in my first post, this is simple...pedophilia

for what all you've said you can say lolis are characters who look underage(sometimes too little, like seven year old >.<;;; ), and may or may not be actually underage; or characters who look sexually atractive, (like big breasts and accentuated curves) but are underage anyway I consider that both of this definitions belong to the "loli" genre.
Hmmm I don't think it has something to do with age, it's most likely the way the character look that counts.
And big breasts won't do it, it's exactly the opposite of the definition of loli
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Old 2004-06-02, 15:22   Link #45
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
Loli is under 16. It's a lable given to the taboo of infatuation/love of a girl that is supposed te be too young. America, for example, considers anyone under 16 to be too immature for such a relationship. So that's where the line is. There is no minimum age when it's looked at this way.

There may be different types of lolicons who set their own minimum age so they can feel like they are better than the guys who like girls that are "too young" or something, I don't know.

Rei counts as a loli. She was 15, right? I know the characters were all a specific age to pilot the Evas. I understand that it is debatable as Rei is about as physically mature as a character can get in anime. Appearance is the main trait of a loli character but depending on why the lolicon is a lolicon, a character said to be under age but looks completely mature counts too. If the reasons are less about young cuteness, and more of virginity or something.

I suppose this can be argued forever as even people grouped together under the lable "lolicon" are all individuals and have their own ideas and reasons.
Rei's character design is not really loli, however her personality practically defines the "no talk, no heart" loli... I think there was an online poll somewhere where people vote what they think as the most important factors of loli, and get the conclusion that personality > appearance >>>>> age (I think the general idea is that the real age is pretty irrelevant).

And I think some people set an age minimum not because "to feel better than others", but they need the girl to be mature enough to have some sexual appeal I guess... I know quite some people who adore Sakura of Card Captor Sakura (another character who helps define the term "loli" I guess), but don't have any interest in Mii of Popotan...

BTW: Rei is 14.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-06-02 at 15:34.
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Old 2004-06-02, 15:28   Link #46
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How is Rei's personality loli? That's a definition of loli, I've never heard. How does "no talk, no heart" equal loli? If Rei was 25 would she still be considered loli because of her personality? I would think cute, innocent, and/or slightly immature would be a loli personality.

I would think it should be appeanence > personallity > age. A character that appears 30 with a youngish personallity wouldn't constitute loli, to me. If she looked just as young, too, then yes.
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Old 2004-06-02, 15:34   Link #47
dreamless
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well, I guess Rei's personality is loli in that she's pure, and totally clueless when it comes to human emotions and relationships. she is innocent and immature in that sense I guess...
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Old 2004-06-02, 15:54   Link #48
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I suppose. I just don't really see her as a loli character except for being 14. But as I said, the definition of loli can be pretty subjective.
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Old 2004-06-02, 19:33   Link #49
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Originally Posted by TronDD
I suppose. I just don't really see her as a loli character except for being 14. But as I said, the definition of loli can be pretty subjective.
Out of the standard Loli qualities of being:
Cute, Young Looking, Innocent & Submissive.

She does qualify some of those points but IMO Rei's personality is basically souless, reserved and subservient for the greater part of the Eva series, she's not especially "cute" in terms of catchphrases or other outgoing actions and shes not especially young looking (but does qualify) - So I would say that her personna tends rather to feed into another "complex" that quite a few people (read men for the most part) find attractive that of the "controllable" female who will submit to your every wish (and for some Rei fans out there I'm sure they have many......... )

I would say there has been a rise in this since the postfeminist movement and the blurring of gender roles epitomised by the rise of the "Ladette" culture only emphasises this, I for one personally can't really blame any guy for finding this appealing in the light of experiencing some pissed up binge drinking Ladette throwing up all over the place or screaming filth whilsting fighting any other ladettes who might be trying to get in her face, I mean guys do a bad enough job of this kind of activity themselves No wonder the demure restrained female "icon" gathers such a following....

Also an earlier poster in this thread by the name of "AnAlPedoFileMan" ? He must feel right at home in this thread!
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Old 2004-06-02, 19:48   Link #50
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so...anime ish a lot of child molesting and stuff huh?? kyahahahah luff it!!

by the way--what's a pedophilia [<--big word,ok?]...i think someone mentioned it, but i didn't really get it. @_@
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Old 2004-06-02, 19:57   Link #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omaren
so...anime ish a lot of child molesting and stuff huh?? kyahahahah luff it!!

by the way--what's a pedophilia [<--big word,ok?]...i think someone mentioned it, but i didn't really get it. @_@
"Pedophilia" is the more scientific term. Pedo means "child", philia means "love of".

Typically the term carries a criminal connotation. If you actual molest little kids, you're a pedophile.

That's probably why other names like "lolita complex" are around. To dissasociate themselves from criminals very much hated by society.

And I have no idea what your first sentence is supposed to say but not every lolicon would necessarily support child molestation, real or animated.
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Old 2004-06-03, 08:01   Link #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsurumaru
She does qualify some of those points but IMO Rei's personality is basically souless, reserved and subservient for the greater part of the Eva series, she's not especially "cute" in terms of catchphrases or other outgoing actions and shes not especially young looking (but does qualify) - So I would say that her personna tends rather to feed into another "complex" that quite a few people (read men for the most part) find attractive that of the "controllable" female who will submit to your every wish (and for some Rei fans out there I'm sure they have many......... )
The keyword, I think, would be "dolls." How many anime/manga have sprung up with the idea of android female characters, (hello, Chobits...) where they are made to learn about human life, emotions and love--while being under the gaze of the male protagonist? (or the male viewer's gaze maybe?) Maybe not that many, but I'm sure such titles are quite well-known. Sometimes, this fascination with "dolls" is reflected in other areas--personality for instance. And that's not limited to a single genre. (For instance, GITS seems to possess a similar theme, though on a different and more critical level--more textual even.) Just something to think about, albeit kinda off-topic.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TronDD
I would think it should be appeanence > personallity > age. A character that appears 30 with a youngish personallity wouldn't constitute loli, to me. If she looked just as young, too, then yes.
I agree. Although I think there's a lot of variety when it comes to loli for better or for worse. Some english-translated ero games and hentai titles even go as far to assure the consumer that every character depicted in sexual situations are indeed 18 years old. But that doesn't change the fact that some female characters are designed to look underaged.

Appearance matters a lot. Appearance, or the very loli-inspired image of such a character, is something that can be immediately discerned.
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Old 2004-06-04, 02:18   Link #53
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Originally Posted by TronDD
He had sex with her in the movie I saw. It was a recent (mid to late 90's) remake, though. Don't know about the original story, specifically. I wouldn't be surprised if the sex was added to better shock modern audiences.
In the book, it was never really clear whether they had had conventional sex or not. Nabokov alluded to alot of things, but never stated anything outright. But it was clear that Dolores spent a lot of time on her knees.

According to Humbert Humbert, the age range for a nymphet was 9-14. Dolores was almost 13 when he met her, and 14 when he, um, bedded her (I'm guessing; like i said, he never stated it in clear terms)

and that's my ten cents that nobody asked for
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Old 2004-06-04, 10:42   Link #54
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Just to add to Junko's comment, I've read the book and H. Humbert does have intercourse with Dolores. Actually, it was Dolores that made the move, not Humbert. Humbert wasn't Dolores' first, but Dolores was Humbert's first. The reason why Vladimir Nabokov wrote in a passive implied way is because he didn't want this book to be rated as a pornographic book. It wasn't meant to arouse. Maybe it was also done to avoid legal action, since direct evidence of intercourse with an underage girl wasn't found. Anyways it's a great book, #4 of 100 top books of this century (Modern Library's list). I have memorized the intro to this book, it's just that powerful. Keep a dictionary handy though .

Anyways back on topic. What is loli? Well Loli to me would be similar to tsurumaru's definition. Young in every sense of the word, inexperienced in life and in sex. Apparently there's games and videos involving underage "looking" girls. But I've heard that they slap on a sticker that says "all characters are over 18". But does that work? Man, some girls I see in those games (from CG images) are blatantly underage, even under 10 years old. What's next? Toddler-complex? How young is too young?
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Old 2004-06-04, 14:03   Link #55
mantidor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
[...]
Apparently there's games and videos involving underage "looking" girls. But I've heard that they slap on a sticker that says "all characters are over 18". But does that work? Man, some girls I see in those games (from CG images) are blatantly underage, even under 10 years old. What's next? Toddler-complex? How young is too young?
Not "apparently", they really exist, thats the reason why I said this is simple pedophilia, some may say thats an unfair comparison, and they might be right to a certain extent, but at the end is about sexually sugestive children, is just that, dont say that this is a "platonic" love because It isn't, is highly sexual.
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Old 2004-06-04, 14:14   Link #56
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantidor
Not "apparently", they really exist, thats the reason why I said this is simple pedophilia, some may say thats an unfair comparison, and they might be right to a certain extent, but at the end is about sexually sugestive children, is just that, dont say that this is a "platonic" love because It isn't, is highly sexual.
You seem to forget the fact that animes and reality aren't the same.
Or else if you liked rape game, would this make you someone who would rape every girl who you'll encounter?
There are lot of arts that can be taken wrong, but it isn't because one like it, that this person will do it ; and this apply to any sort of hentai including the most disgusting ones (up to taste of course).
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Old 2004-06-04, 15:25   Link #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_Paper
Why not just come out and say it directly?

All M.O.E. and, to a certain extent, moe~ characters tend to fall under the 'loli (aka. pedobait)' category.
You're quite right. In fact, most of the Cosprayers characters are 18 years old. According to some dialogue in the 2nd cosprayers DVD episode, the two youngest-looking characters, which can be found on the bottom-left of this page are actually both 18. To which Natsumi replies, "Late bloomers, huh?".

My view of lolicon is basically this: if you're attracted to Sakura from Cardcaptor Sakura, you're a lolicon. I don't even know if it's a noun, you just are.
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Old 2004-06-04, 17:55   Link #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
You seem to forget the fact that animes and reality aren't the same.
Or else if you liked rape game, would this make you someone who would rape every girl who you'll encounter?
There are lot of arts that can be taken wrong, but it isn't because one like it, that this person will do it ; and this apply to any sort of hentai including the most disgusting ones (up to taste of course).
Exactly, I don't mix reality with fiction. Look for the exact definition of a pedophile. Is someone who is sexually atraccted to children (according to dictionary.com), is irrelevant wether this person actually has sex with children or not, therefore I find both loli fans and pedophiles to be the same. I don't understand why you see them as being different. Probably is the fact that pedophile has a more negative connotation from the way we have being tought this term.

I suppose if you see it from another perspective less controversial it could be understood more easily. You kill a lot of people in games, sometimes extremly realistic, and you most surely will never kill someone in real life, but nevertheless you enjoy it doing it in a game. So the same with lolicons, they'll never have sex in real life with a kid, but nevertheless they enjoy it in the game, manga, anime etc. and that fits the definition of pedophile perfectly, they are sexually atracted to children, period.

If its not clear enough i'll just state this: I never said that lolicons rape kids in real life, never, not in any post in this thread, and if any of you thought I said that is because your definition of a pedophile is not the same as mine (and dictionary.com )
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Old 2004-06-04, 18:09   Link #59
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Would it be considered pedophilia if the person only looked underage but actually was not?

I think most agree that would still be lolicon. They are slightly different terms. Just because you like young looking cute girls in anime doesn't mean you want to have sex with them or see them in sexual situations, either.

If you kill people in games, that doesn't make you a murderer, an attempted murderer, or someone conspiring to murder. Being attracted to young "virtual girls" doesn't automatically make you a pedophile, either.
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Old 2004-06-04, 18:48   Link #60
dreamless
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Quote:
You're quite right. In fact, most of the Cosprayers characters are 18 years old. According to some dialogue in the 2nd cosprayers DVD episode, the two youngest-looking characters, which can be found on the bottom-left of this page are actually both 18. To which Natsumi replies, "Late bloomers, huh?".
Err... I think on that page you linked to, it's clearly stated that the only character who is over 18 is Sister-rayer. Miko-rayer is 17, that Indian is 15, the Arabian is 10, the Native American is 13. Also in Smasth Hit 2nd epsiode if you see that paper with the actesses' data, one of them is any elementary student. So MOE is not really that shy from doing underaged stuff...

Quote:
Exactly, I don't mix reality with fiction. Look for the exact definition of a pedophile. Is someone who is sexually atraccted to children (according to dictionary.com), is irrelevant wether this person actually has sex with children or not, therefore I find both loli fans and pedophiles to be the same. I don't understand why you see them as being different. Probably is the fact that pedophile has a more negative connotation from the way we have being tought this term.
But the key word here is "sexually attracted". Do you think all those Rei Ayanami fans and Asuka Langley fans are sexually attracted to them? Making them all pedophiles? @_@

Quote:
I suppose if you see it from another perspective less controversial it could be understood more easily. You kill a lot of people in games, sometimes extremly realistic, and you most surely will never kill someone in real life, but nevertheless you enjoy it doing it in a game. So the same with lolicons, they'll never have sex in real life with a kid, but nevertheless they enjoy it in the game, manga, anime etc. and that fits the definition of pedophile perfectly, they are sexually atracted to children, period.
Hmm... this analogy seems quite weird. so by your reasoning, you think lolicons are no different from pedophiles, and FPS fans are no different from blood-thirsty serial killers...

Also we should distinguish the people who just likes some underage girls in animes from those who enjoy hentai games with underage girls. For example, Yuzuyu in Aishiteruze Baby is definitely a loli, and many people like this character without any sexual intention (I shudder at the idea of someone who can get sexually attracted to Yuzuyu ) I think people who enjoy hentai games with underage girls are as different from pedophiles as people enjoy FPS games different from serial killers. while people who like some underage girls in animes without any sexual intentions is a completely different matter altogether. I mean, do you have to be sexually attracted to a female character if you like her in an anime? I don't think so. I can like a female character as much as I can like a male character without anything sexual involved.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-06-04 at 19:00.
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