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Old 2006-05-02, 08:17   Link #1
Aoie_Emesai
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Immrigrant's Rights

Please note that i'm quoting CNN ^_^. And CNN quote others too, so we're quoting a quote.

After reading the article on CNN yesterday that was previous before this one, I was sorta suprised that the immrigrants were acutally going to go protest against the restricitve immrigration that the US is putting upon soon if it was ratifyed.

But as of today, many immrigrants and supporters have pratically boycotted their job and works to participate in the protest.

Facts -

ECONOMIC EFFECTS
Companies affected by Monday's demonstrations include:

Tyson Foods Inc. - closed a dozen of 100 plants, reduced staff at others


Perdue Farms - closed 8 of 14 chicken plants


Goya Foods - suspended delivery everywhere except Florida


Gold Kist - closed two poultry facilities, reduced staff at two others


Cargill Meat Solutions - closed plants in six states


McDonald's Corp. - some restaurants operated with limited crews

These are the largest companies smacked by this, and there's more too. And here are some of the cities affected by this.
  • New York
  • Washington
  • Las Vegas, Nevada
  • Miami, Florida
  • Chicago, Illinois
  • Los Angeles, California
  • San Francisco, California
  • Atlanta, Georgia
  • Denver, Colorado
  • Phoenix, Arizona
  • New Orleans, Louisiana
  • Milwaukee, Wisconsin

And again this list isn't completed too. Though i'm not against or with it, I do believe some restriction should be enforced. The protesters demand a reform, but we're already in a national crisis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
The Senate is considering a proposal that would allow illegal immigrants to obtain legal status, and eventually citizenship, by working for six years, paying a fine, undergoing a background check and learning English.
Humm.... strange. Paying a fine? Shouldn't it be change to fee? The word "fine" sounds like it they are criminals. The supporters calls the eventual attainment of citizenship "earned citizenship" and the demoters call it "amnesty". Again since i'm neither pro or con, i'll let ya discuss and debate about this, even if you don't live in the US.
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Old 2006-05-02, 09:09   Link #2
Sakaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai

Humm.... strange. Paying a fine? Shouldn't it be change to fee? The word "fine" sounds like it they are criminals. The supporters calls the eventual attainment of citizenship "earned citizenship" and the demoters call it "amnesty". Again since i'm neither pro or con, i'll let ya discuss and debate about this, even if you don't live in the US.
Well, technically they are, they broke the immigration laws by entering the country illegally. But rather than criminal in this case it is like driving without a licenses or not renewing your license. So it is a fine instead of a fee, which it would have been if they had immigrated legally.
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Old 2006-05-02, 10:05   Link #3
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aoie_Emesai
But as of today, many immrigrants and supporters have pratically boycotted their job and works to participate in the protest.
As long as the army is still operational, it should be ok...
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Old 2006-05-02, 10:06   Link #4
Secca
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Sometimes I do feel jealous of birds, they are free to immigrate to better environments, but we human doesn't have that kind of freedom.

I think people should at least have the right to choose where they want to live.
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Old 2006-05-02, 10:51   Link #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secca
I think people should at least have the right to choose where they want to live.
I think that is a nice sentiment but perhaps a little impractical. When people emigrate to another country and become part of that country's immigrant population they become a drain on the welfare benefits unless they can get a job and support themselves. I think having immigrants that are self sufficient is great and as I have said in other posts cultural diversity brings many benefits. When the existing population becomes upset by immigration it is usually when they see so many immigrants on social welfare. This does nobody any good least of all the income generating existing immigrants. In fact, they are often the first to complain.

In addition, would you want rapists and other violent criminals to have easy access to your country? I think not. So sometimes these laws are there to protect.

However, I do also feel that wealthy countries have an obligation to take into their fold a certain percentage of refugees. These can be both political or economic unless they have a criminal record.
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Old 2006-05-02, 11:40   Link #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roopoo
I think that is a nice sentiment but perhaps a little impractical. When people emigrate to another country and become part of that country's immigrant population they become a drain on the welfare benefits unless they can get a job and support themselves. I think having immigrants that are self sufficient is great and as I have said in other posts cultural diversity brings many benefits. When the existing population becomes upset by immigration it is usually when they see so many immigrants on social welfare. This does nobody any good least of all the income generating existing immigrants. In fact, they are often the first to complain.

In addition, would you want rapists and other violent criminals to have easy access to your country? I think not. So sometimes these laws are there to protect.

However, I do also feel that wealthy countries have an obligation to take into their fold a certain percentage of refugees. These can be both political or economic unless they have a criminal record.
Indeed, as you said in your last paragraph, people should be allowed in richer countries, but I'd like personally to say not only refugees but also other people. You say they drain your welfare service, well two things: first your welfare service is not one of the biggest and constant (set number of years you can be on welfare, etc), and secondly, I think that to leave the poor people in already poor countries, is really not the best thing for the world.

But that's just me ^^
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Old 2006-05-02, 11:50   Link #7
Komataguri
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Illegal immigrants have none of the American rights they are crying foul over


The only rights they have are basic human rights [ the right to eat, not be tortured, ect ]
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:00   Link #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaines
Indeed, as you said in your last paragraph, people should be allowed in richer countries, but I'd like personally to say not only refugees but also other people. You say they drain your welfare service, well two things: first your welfare service is not one of the biggest and constant (set number of years you can be on welfare, etc), and secondly, I think that to leave the poor people in already poor countries, is really not the best thing for the world.

But that's just me ^^
I agree with some of what you have said but I think the world would be better if it made the poor countries better off. Better in that they can feed their people and offer them a reasonable standard of living. The way to do that is not just plonking a load of money on what are generally corrupt governments but by providing infrastructure and using the local people as workers and paying them a decent wage. I also believe that some of our large organisations should build factories in these countries and provide employment but at the same time not use them as slave labour as Reebok and Adidas (and many others) currently do.
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:03   Link #9
Gryff
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America is a country born of immigration, I can't believe how hypocritical some people are.
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:04   Link #10
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Komataguri
Illegal immigrants have none of the American rights they are crying foul over


The only rights they have are basic human rights [ the right to eat, not be tortured, ect ]
Doesn't US officially use the illegal immigrants in wars to protect its citizens' security?

And as a note, if I remember correctly, what you have pointed out in your second sentence may not be guaranteed at all.
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:07   Link #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
Doesn't US officially use the illegal immigrants in wars to protect its citizens' security?

And as a note, if I remember correctly, what you have pointed out in your second sentence may not be guaranteed at all.
If you mean as in the Army. The answer is no. A immgraint can cut through a lot red tape for processing as a citizen by joinging the Army but a illegal immgraint cannot join the army.

The french have thier foreign legion but the US does not have anything like that.

Secca, that will happen right after all of Earth fall under one goverment which should happen 1 year after world peace is achieve. Which imo will never happen. It is a nice dream but human nature being what it is, it will never happen.

Gryff, you are missing point. No one said they are agaisnt LEGAL immgration but they are against ILLEGAL immgration.


Imagin yourself on a friday at the bank with a long waiting line. You are waiting in place in the line patiently, grumbling but still waiting in line moving up slowly. All of a sudden some guy cut in front. How do you feel about that? Thats what illegal immgraints are doing they are cutting in line in front of people who are patiently waiting in line to have thier papers process. So is it fair to the people who are waiting patiently and following the rules by allowing illegal immgrants to cut in line and push back the processing date for those who are trying to get in the US legally?
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:25   Link #12
Sazelyt
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
If you mean as in the Army. The answer is no. A immgraint can cut through a lot red tape for processing as a citizen by joinging the Army but a illegal immgraint cannot join the army.
I need to check on that. But, it is hard to believe that all those immigrants in the Army are legal on the origin. Considering that the Army should have the power to easily prepare the necessary documents to give temporary immigrant rights, if necessary. Again I don't how the immigration process works. But if those people entered US as illegal immigrants and after some short duration of time they become legal immigrants through some means, are they really deserved to be counted as legal or illegal? It looks more like the case of OJ Simpson, non-guilty according to the laws but guilty in people's minds.
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:30   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryff
America is a country born of immigration, I can't believe how hypocritical some people are.
You might find that people only leave their countries because of the poor conditions they are living in. They don't necessarily want to go the problem is that sometimes they have no choice. It would be better to make their conditions more tolerable than to leave them in the position where the only alternative is to leave their families (mothers, fathers, grandparents etc) and go and live in a foreign country where they will feel alienated.
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Old 2006-05-02, 12:38   Link #14
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sazelyt
I need to check on that. But, it is hard to believe that all those immigrants in the Army are legal on the origin.
It is not that hard to immagine. The army have some very good benefits form Healthcare to scholorships and prefernce for governement. If you are a elder child in a familiy of immgrants and your familiy while making ends can't afford to sent to college and you weren't able to get that scholoship by joining the army:

1. you can a citizen easier
2. helping your familiy with a good pay check.
3. get that college scholorship you want to go to college
4. show that you do love this country.
5. get healthcare for you and your familiy

There are probably other benefits form the point of veiw of a poor to middle class immgrant familiy who can't afford to go to college the army option that doesn't look that bad.[/quote]

Quote:
Considering that the Army should have the power to easily prepare the necessary documents to give temporary immigrant rights,
most probably yes and with the short fall in recuriting the last few years The military is prbably had been thinking about recuriting illegal immagrants and give them a legal status in exchanging for them enlisting.


I don't know if anyone can answer this for me. but i always wonder about it. If people are willing to die to come to the US. Why aren't they willing to die to change their country for the better?
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Old 2006-05-02, 13:11   Link #15
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I'm all for allowing refugees refuge
but not "economic" refugees
nor would I allow to let them stay once their country of origin is deemed 'safe'
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Old 2006-05-02, 13:15   Link #16
Roopoo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
I don't know if anyone can answer this for me. but i always wonder about it. If people are willing to die to come to the US. Why aren't they willing to die to change their country for the better?
Maybe they believe it is easier to die for a country that is already a good place to live than to die for a country that is sitting in crap and is probably very difficult to change.

I haven't been really following the story in depth but great news for all those people demonstrating in Kathmandu in Nepal. Looks like your voice has been heard and democracy may stand a chance as long as you can get rid of this outdated system of royalty. However, I cannot see them (royal family) giving up their pampered lifestyles without more of a fight. Their wealth should be distributed amongst the poor and needy. Why should people who have all these benefits simply from being born to the right family sit on their fat arses all their lives and do nothing except leech on the backs of others.
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Old 2006-05-02, 13:24   Link #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xellos-_^
I don't know if anyone can answer this for me. but i always wonder about it. If people are willing to die to come to the US. Why aren't they willing to die to change their country for the better?
I don't think they are the same. You do not come willing to die in US, considering the treatment here better than your original country. You might take the risk of dying here, but most probably you consider it to be having a low probability. On the other hand, considering some countries, trying to change it means a near definite ticket to the other world. As long as there is big difference between those probabilities, as long the conditions to change your location are met (e.g., having a rather strong desire to leave your country), most people will prefer to go to other countries.
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Old 2006-05-02, 14:13   Link #18
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The problem is the political, economic, and social mess running from Mexico into Central America. If things were better there, the people living there would have little reason to illegally immigrate into the US. Looking at the northern border with Canada, it's not like you see a lot of news headlines about truckloads of Canadians illegally crossing the border into the US looking for an opportunity to work in low wage US jobs.

I don't see the guest worker program as a real solution since it attempts to unilaterally address the effects of a problem in the US...but the source of the problem which resides in foreign countries will continue. If unilateral action is all the US can rely upon, the government would be better off to start with getting the border fully secured and then later consider implementing a guest worker program to address the situation of illegal immigrants who are already in the country or who wish to enter for this reason. So long as people can cross along the border wherever and for whatever reason, that's a matter which should be fixed first.
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Old 2006-05-02, 14:44   Link #19
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Too many people ignore or simply don't know the importance of immigrants in our society. When immigration laws were being debated in California, the stongest opposers were not the immigrants, but the farmers in southern california. the simple truth was that they could not maintain their farms with out the immigrants. it's all well and good to say they are violating our laws but how are we supposed to replace the massive work force that is made up of immigrants. i always thought it was strange that people protest the enforcment of laws. the senate is not proposing a change to the deffinition of "illegal immigration" they are simply proposing that we begin enforcing the law. if you are going to protest you should protest the law itself not the enforcment of the law.
i am also not so sure about the idea of anmesty of earned citizenship. isn't this essentialy saying that if you can avoid immigration officers for some set period of time you earn citizenship. by breaking the law for a long time you become a citizen. am i missing something, because that sounds kinda strange.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Secca
I think people should at least have the right to choose where they want to live.
I went to see a talk by Nobel Peace Prize Laureat Rigoberta Menchu Tum, she said the exact same thing. But she also made it clear that this was in an ideal world and was by no means practical at this point in time. Would be nice though.
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Old 2006-05-02, 15:33   Link #20
Xellos-_^
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tanuki
The problem is the political, economic, and social mess running from Mexico into Central America. If things were better there, the people living there would have little reason to illegally immigrate into the US. Looking at the northern border with Canada, it's not like you see a lot of news headlines about truckloads of Canadians illegally crossing the border into the US looking for an opportunity to work in low wage US jobs.
That raise a intresting points.

What the political and economic mess down there?

I don't know much about the history of that part of the world so i would be very intrested if someone could explain it to me.

What cause that mess down there? The people are hardworking. They are smart and the land is rich in natural resources. So what is the cause? Countries like Chile, Agrentina and Costa Rica seems to be doing pretty well. Others like Brazil has some problems but is generally on the upswing. So whats wrong with the other countries?
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