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Old 2008-09-12, 08:23   Link #41
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
The noble, the perfect, the vastly superior Abh, ruled by a benevolant Monarchy and divided into eight, equal, ruling Houses. F-ing space elves. I hate every last one of them.
More uncaring than benevolent. And so what if they are, on the whole, benevolent? It's in their own interest, after all. I know that rulers acting out of enlightened self-interest rather than crazy self-destructive impulses is a novel idea, but maybe they'll try it, in the future.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
They aren't sexy. Their approach to "sex" is distilling reproductive fluids and growing babies in tubes.
No, that's only their approach to reproduction. I don't see what's wrong with it. Less risky for the baby and the mother.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
The Abh started the war,
No, they didn't. The UM quite clearly shot first. After years of tense peace in which the UM and its allies prepared for war against the Abh.

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and the UM has every right to persecute the Abh, since they're programmed to conquer all of space.
No, they're not. More on that later.

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They will never stop trying to control everything, because their god made them to do so.
They have no god.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
It was stated in the first series. They were created by "Mother Fortress" in other words God, they were programmed to explore space, they rebelled, immediately regretted having killed God, and went about conquering the universe to give their existences purpose. The royal Houses are actually formed along the specialty programming for the Abh to better handle space exploration.

Also, co-existence with the United Mankind or any other member of the Alliance was absolutely out of the question for the Abh. Afterall, space is their birthright, and must be controlled by the Monarchy. No autonomous political entities allowed without Abh oversight and assimulation. No ships without an Abh piloting, and no private interstellar vessels.

And they will never give up their birthright as it's programmed into them. They will not surrender, and must be fully exterminated in order to win a war against them.
They were created by human beings and treated as slaves. Their hair color was, in fact, made so they wouldn't be confused with human beings. Yes, they rebelled, and escaped (and you think they shouldn't have? You condone slavery?). However, as slaves, they were raised to fear their masters. And, as Yoda said, fear leads to anger, and so on. So, scared to death they'd be pursued and punished, feeling cornered by that - they came to realize later - irrational fear, they doubled back and destroyed their former masters. That's their original sin.

They were never, however, programmed for conquest. Where did you get that? That's something they decided later. They started as a band of nomadic traders. After the discorvery of Plane Space, they decided that, as the only space natives, the spaceways should be theirs and no one else's. So they forbade the other people they came in contact with from researching Plane Space. However, what they hadn't counted on at the time, was that they weren't the first to discover Plane Space, and that other people got it before the Abh could get to them. What did they do, then? Nothing. Not counting their original sin, they've started one war in their multi-millenia long history. (The one against Jinto's planet.) (How does that fit with what I said about their ban on Plane Space research? Not sure. I may have to reread. Maybe they only count wars against space faring nations?) What's true is that they can't be reasoned with. Once the war's started, they'll finish it. On the other hand, they are content to continue peaceful diplomatic relations with the human nation that didn't fire at them, despite its alliance with the other three, so they're not completely unreasonable.
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Old 2008-09-12, 08:24   Link #42
4Tran
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
It was stated in the first series. They were created by "Mother Fortress" in other words God, they were programmed to explore space, they rebelled, immediately regretted having killed God, and went about conquering the universe to give their existences purpose. The royal Houses are actually formed along the specialty programming for the Abh to better handle space exploration.
While this describes the Abh nature quite well, this isn't the reason for the war that takes place in the anime. That war was started by the Allies in order to curb Abh expansion.

Still, you do have a point in that the author originally meant to make the story much more balanced between the Allies and the Abh, and that the Banner shows (and presumably the novels as well) go too far in glorifying the Abh. After all, I recall a line of dialogue where the Abh predicted the war to go on for one or two centuries, while the show itself shows off a series of uninterrupted Abh victories. To Morioka's credit, I've heard that he planned to write a novel (or short story) from the United Mankind's point of view.

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Originally Posted by Skyfall View Post
Hum ... so their desire to conquer all actually has been stated within the show ? In such case i apologize for my comment being too rash, as it was my memory failing me.
As Hypernova stated, the invasion of Hyde in the very first episode was indicative of the way the Abh operate.
Spoiler for Further clarification from the novel:


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Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
It was pretty obvious since season 1, and that the male protagonist's planet was forcibly annexed. Their whole stance on conquest is pretty much the same as the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere during WW2.
Nope. It's the same as Manifest Destiny .

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Not counting their original sin, they've started one war in their multi-millenia long history. (The one against Jinto's planet.)
Are you sure about that? It seems to me that the Abh didn't have any compunction against attacking whomever they pleased, that they were extremely interested in expansion, and that the logical conclusion would be that they'd attack all the time (as long as it wasn't one of the Allies).






On a very different note, does any novel reader have any concrete estimates as to the size of the Abh wartime fleet? I've heard of numbers up to 100 million ships, but that seems very farfetched, especially since their maximum wartime output seems to be in the order of 50,000 ships per year.
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Old 2008-09-12, 08:41   Link #43
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
As Hypernova stated, the invasion of Hyde in the very first episode was indicative of the way the Abh operate.
Spoiler for Further clarification from the novel:
Are you sure about that? ISTR the preparations for the first offensive had been going on since before Hyde's invasion.

Not that I disagree with you on the expansion thing. There was something disingenuous about the Empress asking why the allies were discontent, when there were plenty of unexplored star systems inside their encirclement.

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Are you sure about that? It seems to me that the Abh didn't have any compunction against attacking whomever they pleased, that they were extremely interested in expansion, and that the logical conclusion would be that they'd attack all the time (as long as it wasn't one of the Allies).
I'm pretty sure there was something exceptional about the Abh's aggression of Martine, yes. I can't quite remember what, though.

I remember Lafiel explaining something about how the Abh where never the aggressors, and Jinto saying that they were, against his planet, and her answering it was the first and only time it'd happened.
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Old 2008-09-12, 09:10   Link #44
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Even with all that being said, I don't think the Abh are so interested in Galactic Domination these days.

First of all, they're getting good resistance.

Secondly, the Abh never seem to be all that interested in controlling it all in Banner of the Stars. Especially in Banner of the Stars 2.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think that the plan stuck with the Abh through all this time. As far as the war goes, I'd say the Abh more than likely started it but mankind probably would've if they didn't. Even if the Abh had come in peace I suspect Xenophobia would've been a big factor. There's always going to be people who think aliens will just try to kill everyone.

Edit: Oh, the Martine incident to my memory was started because Martine actually attacked the Abh. The Prime Minister that was in charge had the audacity to fire off planetary defense systems at the Abh. I think that's the reason for the hostile takeover and annex.
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Old 2008-09-12, 09:11   Link #45
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Are you sure about that? ISTR the preparations for the first offensive had been going on since before Hyde's invasion.
I'm certain:
Spoiler for minor bit from the first novel:

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
I remember Lafiel explaining something about how the Abh where never the aggressors, and Jinto saying that they were, against his planet, and her answering it was the first and only time it'd happened.
What the empress said was that the Abh never attacked without justification, Hyde not being an exception to this rule. Looking at the "justification" of the invasion of Hyde, it's effectively whatever the Abh felt like it was.

And then there are also lines like:
Spoiler for minor bit from the first novel:
Besides, there's no way the Empire could have gotten as large as it was without conquering all sorts of people.

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Originally Posted by Traece View Post
Even with all that being said, I don't think the Abh are so interested in Galactic Domination these days.
The Abh's explicit policy was to cut off the Allies from being expand further, and Hyde was the key to this. Their saving grace is that they had no intention of attacking the Allies themselves. But even there, the Allies were fully aware that the Humankind Empire's position would allow it to grow stronger while their own growth potential was stifled. If the Empire changed its mind at a date far in the future, they wouldn't be able to resist it any more. One thing to note here is that all of the nations think according to very long term goals - often a century or more in the future.
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Old 2008-09-12, 09:31   Link #46
Anh_Minh
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Edit: Oh, the Martine incident to my memory was started because Martine actually attacked the Abh. The Prime Minister that was in charge had the audacity to fire off planetary defense systems at the Abh. I think that's the reason for the hostile takeover and annex.
No, that happened after, IIRC. After the Abh reconquered Hyde from the UM, the Martine... resistance? Government? decided to shoot at ships that were maneuvering in the system, to make their stance undeniable.

During the first invasion, the planetary defenses were never fired. Jinto's father negotiated their surrender - which was one more source of discontent.
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Old 2008-09-12, 09:42   Link #47
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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
No, that happened after, IIRC. After the Abh reconquered Hyde from the UM, the Martine... resistance? Government? decided to shoot at ships that were maneuvering in the system, to make their stance undeniable.

During the first invasion, the planetary defenses were never fired. Jinto's father negotiated their surrender - which was one more source of discontent.
They actually DID fire an orbital satallite laser system if you watch the first episode. The Abh sent in a single scout ship towards the planet and the Martine planetary defense controllers fired on it without provocation.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:20   Link #48
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They actually DID fire an orbital satallite laser system if you watch the first episode. The Abh sent in a single scout ship towards the planet and the Martine planetary defense controllers fired on it without provocation.
No provocation? The Martine defenses are extremely short-ranged, so the Abh ship had to come very close to the planet itself to be anywhere within range. In and of itself, approaching so close without annoucing diplomatic intentions poses a threat to the planet below and is casus belli for attacking said craft. Note that the Abh themselves never brought this incident up as an excuse for their invasion.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:40   Link #49
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Why are you people trying to justify what the Abh did by changing the facts ..... They DID start the war when they discovered Planar Space and started conquering everything they found. Xenophobia or whatever the reason the rest of the galaxy tried to fight the Abh back was in retaliation.
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Old 2008-09-12, 10:55   Link #50
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Uh... Other war. Thousands of years before. All five remaining countries (the Abh and the four allies) have indulged in that sort of things to get where they are.

What you're saying is a bit like "the Romans conquered most of Europe. So Russia, China, and the USA are perfectly justified if they want to invade Italy now."
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:13   Link #51
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Why are you people trying to justify what the Abh did by changing the facts ..... They DID start the war when they discovered Planar Space and started conquering everything they found. Xenophobia or whatever the reason the rest of the galaxy tried to fight the Abh back was in retaliation.
Xenophobia is never a justifiable position unless said race is so far unquestionably alien and hostile to the point of complete unreason (such as Tyranids or Orks in Warhammer 40k) Xenophobia against a people such as the Abh is NOT justifiable given what we are shown of them throughout the shows.
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:28   Link #52
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No provocation? The Martine defenses are extremely short-ranged, so the Abh ship had to come very close to the planet itself to be anywhere within range. In and of itself, approaching so close without annoucing diplomatic intentions poses a threat to the planet below and is casus belli for attacking said craft. Note that the Abh themselves never brought this incident up as an excuse for their invasion.

Is it not a fairly standard proceedure to give clear warnings before firing in such situations? When a SINGLE enemy craft enters your airspace, you don't just blindly shoot it down when you are not in a declared state of war. You issue warnings and if it fails to comply THEN you shoot at it.
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:30   Link #53
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Xenophobia is never a justifiable position unless said race is so far unquestionably alien and hostile to the point of complete unreason (such as Tyranids or Orks in Warhammer 40k) Xenophobia against a people such as the Abh is NOT justifiable given what we are shown of them throughout the shows.
The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
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Old 2008-09-12, 11:55   Link #54
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Originally Posted by incube View Post
Why are you people trying to justify what the Abh did by changing the facts ..... They DID start the war when they discovered Planar Space and started conquering everything they found. Xenophobia or whatever the reason the rest of the galaxy tried to fight the Abh back was in retaliation.
It's not really xenophobia. The Allies really were being cut off by Abh expansion and they felt that they had no choice but to act.

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Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Uh... Other war. Thousands of years before. All five remaining countries (the Abh and the four allies) have indulged in that sort of things to get where they are.

What you're saying is a bit like "the Romans conquered most of Europe. So Russia, China, and the USA are perfectly justified if they want to invade Italy now."
While I think that incube is stretching things a little bit by linking the events to the very beginning of the discovery of Planar Space, your analogy with Rome is incorrect. It'd only be true if the Roman Empire was still conquering territories throughout the world and containing Russia, china and the US from doing the same.

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Originally Posted by Icehawk View Post
Is it not a fairly standard proceedure to give clear warnings before firing in such situations? When a SINGLE enemy craft enters your airspace, you don't just blindly shoot it down when you are not in a declared state of war. You issue warnings and if it fails to comply THEN you shoot at it.
Not quite. A warning is a courtesy, and it's only a matter of diplomacy if the nations in question are in actual contact with one another. A casus belli is a trigger to excuse declaring war on an enemy, so it won't make any sense for a state of war to be declared beforehand. The Abh scout's moves was an inherently hostile act, and everyone knew it. Whether shooting at it is a wise decision is an altogether different matter.

In modern terms, if Georgia were to fly one of their mility aircraft over Russian airspace without permission, Russia is fully justified in shooting it down without giving any warnings whatsoever.

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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
That's definitely one of the points that Morioka was trying to make in the Crest of the Stars novels. I get the feeling that a lot of it was lost in the subsequent works because so much of the focus was from the Abh point of view.
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Old 2008-09-12, 12:15   Link #55
Anh_Minh
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The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
No. The Abh are doing their own will, not God's. They killed their gods, and the gods in question certainly didn't want that.

And you could say the same about the UM. They've been shown to be a lot more invasive about what goes on on the ground than the Abh have any interest in being.

They're not as all conquering as you describe them. If you already have Plane Travel and don't aggress them, in theory, they won't aggress you.
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Originally Posted by 4Tran View Post
It's not really xenophobia. The Allies really were being cut off by Abh expansion and they felt that they had no choice but to act.


While I think that incube is stretching things a little bit by linking the events to the very beginning of the discovery of Planar Space, your analogy with Rome is incorrect. It'd only be true if the Roman Empire was still conquering territories throughout the world and containing Russia, china and the US from doing the same.
Well, I'm not saying the allies don't have their reasons. It will, indeed, be too late if they wait too much longer, and the Abh are surrounding them. I'm just saying it has little to do with the Abh conquering people thousands of years ago. It's not like:
- The allies are innocent of it.
- The conquered people have any relation to the allies.
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Old 2008-09-12, 12:28   Link #56
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The Abh are unreasonable. The Abh way is the only way. Abh standards or bust. Lacking maliciousiness, evil faces, or even hatred, doesn't change the fact they're doing essentionally God's will, everyone else be damned.
Will you knock it off the with this "Gods will" wordplay bullfuckery already? The Abhs are stated numerous times to be atheist in the series, they do not follow anysort of faith-based religious philosphy whatsoever.
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Old 2008-09-12, 12:35   Link #57
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No. The Abh are doing their own will, not God's. They killed their gods, and the gods in question certainly didn't want that.
They still revere "Mother Fortress" to the point they continued to follow it's directives, and even rebuilt it. It's their god, even if they deny it to be.

Quote:
And you could say the same about the UM. They've been shown to be a lot more invasive about what goes on on the ground than the Abh have any interest in being.
You mean on the ground in Crest? That was hardly invasive. Basically no blue dye jobs, they did question people on the streets, but seemed to rarely make any arrests, and there's a good chance they were only on alert because Lafiel had crash landed in the area.

About the only folly the UM made was to try to frame Lafiel's mum for starting the war. There was no need for that dishonesty, since the Abh were a self-admitted threat to everyone's soverignty.

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They're not as all conquering as you describe them. If you already have Plane Travel and don't aggress them, in theory, they won't aggress you.
If you're unfortunate to be able to Plane Travel you mean. If you have a gate near your world, they're going to conquer you.
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Old 2008-09-12, 12:37   Link #58
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I would have to disagree with the rooting of sides thing. I personally can't help but root for the "space elves". The "United Mankind" in that universe, while not focused on heavily, is quite clearly portrayed as the "bad guys" with their ignorant religious zeal and nonsensical unwarrented xenophobia. The Abh's may have their own issues, but like it or not, they are just about as benevolant as you can get when it comes to empires and I would have no problem living in that kind of a society if given the choice between it and what is shown of the United Mankind.
then you are romantic for idealized colonialism. it is ok, but speak about this in class!
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Old 2008-09-12, 12:54   Link #59
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You mean on the ground in Crest? That was hardly invasive. Basically no blue dye jobs, they did question people on the streets, but seemed to rarely make any arrests, and there's a good chance they were only on alert because Lafiel had crash landed in the area.

About the only folly the UM made was to try to frame Lafiel's mum for starting the war. There was no need for that dishonesty, since the Abh were a self-admitted threat to everyone's soverignty.
I think Anh, meant as a whole the UM meddles more in the society of the planets under thier control. While the Abh wants absolutely nothing to do with the planets themselves and only concern themselves with space. It is the main reason why Samson's world decided to join the Abh becuase between the ABH and UM, the Abh interfes the least with the soceity of the planets they control.

It is also the reason the reason why in Book 4
Spoiler:


anyone know if TP will continue on with the rest of the Seikai series or are they stopping at Seikai2?
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Old 2008-09-12, 16:03   Link #60
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Wesley84 View Post
They still revere "Mother Fortress" to the point they continued to follow it's directives, and even rebuilt it. It's their god, even if they deny it to be.
What the hell are you talking about? Their capital, Lakfakalle? They don't worship it, they live in it. Part-time, most of them. It's their old colony ship. Nothing to do with any "Mother Fortress". (Where did that even come from? Are you sure you have the right series?)

Quote:
You mean on the ground in Crest? That was hardly invasive. Basically no blue dye jobs, they did question people on the streets, but seemed to rarely make any arrests, and there's a good chance they were only on alert because Lafiel had crash landed in the area.
I'm working off novel knowledge, where we could see the UM's ugly side a bit more clearly.
Spoiler for novel:



Quote:
About the only folly the UM made was to try to frame Lafiel's mum for starting the war. There was no need for that dishonesty, since the Abh were a self-admitted threat to everyone's soverignty.



If you're unfortunate to be able to Plane Travel you mean. If you have a gate near your world, they're going to conquer you.
Hm. My memory about their standards of starting battles was wrong. It was Febdash's father who claimed they'd never initiated a battle, but I'm not quite sure what he meant by that.

However, all in all, their yoke is pretty light. Their rules:
- maintain order. The Abh would rather not have to do it.
- have a representative to speak with Empire. Annoying to those with a parliamentary regime and no single head of state, true. Or worse, multinational planets. For people who already have a planetary President, or Pope, or King, or whatever, it's pretty much business as usual.
- said representative may not advocate secession from the Empire. (Common citizens, OTOH, can.)
- the Empire get monopoly on interstellar trade. If you didn't even have interstellar travel before, you're no worse off.
- the Empire has monopoly on interstellar ships.
- intrasystem ships are allowed only as long as they're unarmed.
- construction of a recruiting office for the Star Force. Those who want to volunteer may not be hindered, but there's no conscription, no demand of a quota.

I'm not saying it's nothing, but they largely leave the ground well enough alone.



Spoiler for novel:


Spoiler for Reason for the war:
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