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Old 2008-09-12, 21:30   Link #81
kujoe
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I was wondering if it's still possible to extend one's life through genetics. Wasn't there that guy who had been genetically manipulated in such a way? However, it either seems to late for Jinto or he just isn't interested with the idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wesley84
Jinto's nobly training was completed within the seven years he spent at the school. He learned the heriarchy, the language, as well as customs and things of that nture. His officier training was completely seperate, and the 120 lunch menu thing...was part of it.
Oh yeah, now I remember. Well, I suppose the curriculum is different depending on the position. Jinto seems to be in charge logistics and inventory most of the time anyway.
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Old 2008-09-12, 21:52   Link #82
incube
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Well one of the reasons that makes this romance epic is the sacrifice involved... knowing from the very start that even if they dont die in the battle field, one of them will outlive the other and be left alone. T_T

I also hope they get a happy ending but if that really happened it would be kind of dissapointing.. They remind me of Aragon and Arwen from LoTR
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Old 2008-09-12, 22:06   Link #83
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incube View Post
I also hope they get a happy ending but if that really happened it would be kind of dissapointing.. They remind me of Aragon and Arwen from LoTR
Well I certainly wouldn't find it disappointing. Just because tragic or bittersweet endings have their good points doesn't mean that I can't enjoy the opposite. I sometimes find it odd that some people find something wrong about this.

Come to think of it, Jinto's closing words in the 2 episode special seem to suggest that he and Lafiel haven't seen each other for quite some time. If I'm not mistaken, one of the later novels covers this.
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Old 2008-09-12, 22:59   Link #84
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Closing words in the Banner of Stars III?

Spoiler for spoiler:
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Old 2008-09-13, 00:10   Link #85
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by incube View Post
Closing words in the Banner of Stars III?

Spoiler for spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2008-09-13, 03:45   Link #86
Anh_Minh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
I also recall that your descendent also get loyalty genes programmed into them. By modern moral standards that's like selling your soul to become president of a small dictatorial nation (granted we already got plenty of that it seems).
The loyalty genes obviously don't work that great. Febdash tried to kill Lafiel and Jinto, and of course there was the original sin.

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Originally Posted by incube View Post
Eh... what would clone armies do??? Who do u think Darth Vader commanded to take over the galaxy ??? >.<

What im trying to say is that if the Abh started to clone massively they would surely be able to conquer the galaxy in no time but that would be at the expense of loosing their humanity and became simply machines...
But the Abh can't do that. They don't do the accelerated aging thing. They don't implant memories for accelerated teaching. And they think that what makes an Abh an Abh is culture - the parents spend years homeschooling their kids. Clones wouldn't make a difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoonKain3 View Post
Although at that point, who would care? Everyone who would resist would have been killed off already, and future 'insurgents' are kept in check by the loyalty gene. Sounds like a win win situation if you ask me. They might have lost their humanity, but that's a small price to pay for eternal peace, no?



Seriously speaking though, with Lafiel probably outliving Jinto several times his age, I do find it quite sad she'll either be sad for the rest of her life or move on to another man. But alas, such is the fate of all human-elf relationships since the dawn of fantasy fiction...
The Abh don't love like humans anyway. They supposedly love passionately for a few years, and then move on. Even if they remain lovers, it's not the same. Lafiel's father, for example. While he still loved her mother, and maybe occasionally slept with her, is apparently quite a skirt chaser. Lafiel's birth more or less marked the end of their passion.
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Old 2008-09-13, 05:07   Link #87
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The Abh don't love like humans anyway. They supposedly love passionately for a few years, and then move on. Even if they remain lovers, it's not the same. Lafiel's father, for example. While he still loved her mother, and maybe occasionally slept with her, is apparently quite a skirt chaser. Lafiel's birth more or less marked the end of their passion.
Actually, they do. Well, that is, if we're talking about humans in an ideal, free society.

Basically, Abh relationships are pursued freely, no matter what kind of relationships they may be. If a group of people choose to have multiple partners, so be it. If one prefers the same sex, so be it. If two people choose to be together exclusively for as long as they live, so be it. Abh views on love tend to be more underpinned by civic freedom, rather than by classical notions or traditional models.
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Old 2008-09-13, 07:20   Link #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
The Abh don't love like humans anyway. They supposedly love passionately for a few years, and then move on. Even if they remain lovers, it's not the same. Lafiel's father, for example. While he still loved her mother, and maybe occasionally slept with her, is apparently quite a skirt chaser. Lafiel's birth more or less marked the end of their passion.
They are elves... if u ever read LoTR / Eragon or any other elve related book you will be able to understand the Abh better.

@kujoe

Spoiler for about those final words:
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Old 2008-09-13, 07:28   Link #89
Anh_Minh
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Plenty of different elves in various fictions. LotR, Poison Elves, Discworld... They're all have little in common, save for the pointy ears and long life.

Also, the Abh aren't that elfish: no pointy ears, except for the Abriels.
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Old 2008-09-13, 11:07   Link #90
kujoe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anh_Minh View Post
Also, the Abh aren't that elfish: no pointy ears, except for the Abriels.
It's not just about the ears. It's also about how they're portrayed.
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Old 2008-09-13, 18:15   Link #91
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Beautiful, Elegant, long lifes, stronger than normal humans and even how their society is built is very similar between elves and the Abh. Smaller caracteristics might be their physical similarities, lots useless and difficult manners, the way they see "love" is different than humans, etc...
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Old 2008-09-13, 18:23   Link #92
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Unfortunately, their warships aren't gay and breakable like they're supposed to be.
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Old 2009-09-08, 04:02   Link #93
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Thanks to a great reccomendation by wkd and Slice of Life, I've just finished the Crest of the Stars series (though I still have the OVA waiting for me).

I started the show mostly because it was said to be a character oriented adventure story. And so my main interest in the show was Jinto and Lafiel as well as some other characters (Samson, notably). That being said, though I'm not a sci-fi fan really, I did end up finding the world and the society interesting, it was more than enough to keep me interested. But I still didn't find the space battle sequences interesting, but that's okay.

Mostly because of that, my favourite installment was definitely Banner II (thusfar, at least) because the story was heavily centered around the main characters and a conflict between them. I think my least favourite was the first banner because of more emphasis on pure space war scenes as the narrative. I felt kind of mixed about how they switched to other vessels and commanders at times. I thought Captain Spoor and her chief of staff were very interesting to watch, but the "spectacularly insane brothers", not so much.

Anyways the ending of Banners II was really, really great, I thought. Still, though I know that there's another OVA still to watch, I feel like there's a lot more for this story to tell, though I don't know how likely more animated material is. There was a four year gap between II and the OVA it seems, so it doesn't seem completely impossible, and I think there's a novel that's yet to be animated.
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Old 2009-09-08, 11:25   Link #94
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There do is more material after the OVA, however I don't think it will come to the small screen anytime soon. Anyway, it seems that share our sentiments on the Banners II ending being one of the best things the series has to offer. In that case you might find the OVA (Banners III) very satisfying. Be sure to share your feelings on it when you are done!

---

Oh wait, you did. A shame really that you didn't like it that much, personally I found the OVA ending to be the best part among the whole series.


Anyway, Crest of the Stars is my second favorite space opera oriented series, and one of the best character oriented series I've ever watched. If you liked the experience, you might want to give my personal favorite, Legend of the Galactic Heroes, a chance.
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Old 2009-09-08, 13:33   Link #95
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Ah, it wasn't bad, I think I should have waited, because the emotional impact of II was still hanging over me when I watched III. And I felt like some of the themes had potential that was cut short by time constraint.

But anyways, I've watched quite a few anime by this point, and I can easily say that Stars is certainly going to stick in my mind for a while.

I've also looked into Galactic Heroes. The only thing I'm wary about is that I liked Stars as a character-story enriched by a fascinating world and the space battle scenes were less interesting overall for me. I've read a bunch of reviews and I'm still unsure whether GH is similarly character-oriented or if it's more of a straight story of galactic warfare.
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Old 2009-09-08, 13:39   Link #96
Proto
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Well, GH is mcuh, much more plot oriented than Crest of Stars. It is not all warfare, there is also a strong politics and human culture element to it, there is also a storng character development element, but its widespread across its 101 episode so it may appear as a little diluted to you. In general, it may not fit your bill if you are looking for a character oriented series. However, in its defence I can say that it is the best plot oriented anime series I've ever seen.

For some character oriented, slice of lifeish sci-fi there is always Figure 17.
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Old 2009-09-09, 20:53   Link #97
Kaoru Chujo
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I'm just reading a translation of Crest and it brings back all the ways I loved the anime. Mainly for Lafiel, I have to say, but also for other characters and relationships, as well as the social setting and the plot.

I've tried Galactic Heroes a few times, but never get very far. I do have some eps around to try again, though. People whose judgment I respect love it.

My favorite sci-fi anime is also my favorite anime, period: Simoun. It has the most beautiful flying machines I've seen, bizarre as they may be, and fighting. But mainly it is about characters, relationships, and the characters' reactions to how a war is going, and to the religious ramifications of fighting. It doesn't take place in space, but on a planet that is not Earth, in a society where everyone is female at birth, and has to choose their future gender at 17. The thing that turns a lot of people off is the fact that all the main characters are female and they have romantic relationships with each other.

That came out in 2006. But a six-episode OVA that began in 2008 and will end later this year has totally captured my attention, too: Eve no Jikan. It is about humanoid robots and their place in a near-future society. Brilliantly done.

As for space opera, however, Macross Frontier was just entertaining, and Tytania was an inferior (but also entertaining) imitation of GH.
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Old 2009-11-01, 18:05   Link #98
Sackett
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I just recently watched Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars (all the way to III). It's become one of my favorites. I also ordered the books and just finished them. There were some interesting tidbits in there that were left out. For example, by seizing Jinto's home planet the Abh cut the rest of the space faring nations off from access to the Fath that lead outside the Milky Way to other galaxies. That's why Jinto's home world has such an important part in the start of the war, and has strategic importance.

I must say I am constantly astonished by the way some people think they are suppose to just accept the "Ahb good, Mankind bad" presentation. I mean, it's pretty obvious that Jinto doesn't believe the Ahb propoganda so why should we? Especially since Jinto is the viewer's avatar and our guide to relating to this strange world.

It's one of the things I really like about Crest of The Stars. It introduces the Ahb as the villians- clearly as the villians. But then introduces us to good and friendly characters like Lafiel to make us forget this and start liking the Ahb. Every once in a while though we are shocked to discover things that shake this viewpoint. That United Mankind propaganda- obviously racist lies and bigotry- but wait- What? It's the truth!? Or we get exposed to bloodthirsty Spoor, or the Insanity Twins. What would our concept of the Ahb be like if they were the first Ahb Jinto had met?

That's one of the things I like about it. It makes us think. Which side should we really be cheering for. And in real life, it reminds us of inconvenient truths. For example, I bet there were a lot of nice Nazis. (I doubt there were many nice SS, but that's because they were selected to not be nice). Just because there were lots of nice Nazis does that mean we should agree with the Nazis, or that it was wrong to fight- and yes- kill them?

I often wonder, if Jinto hadn't met Lafiel, would he have stayed loyal to the Ahb? Might he have gone over to United Mankind instead? Also, would Lafiel be as nice as she is if not for Jinto's influence on her? I have to admit I found her threat to wipe out a planet's atmosphere breathtaking in it's ruthless indifference to human life.

Similarly, the show demonstrates both the strength and weakness of a noble/monarchy/feudal system. On one side we have Lafiel- but on the other we have bloodthirsty people like Spoor, and insane people like whats his name.

I like how Crest of the Stars doesn't just give you what you should believe. Instead it presents a framework, but shows that this frame of mind has a lot of inconsistencies with the actual actions and events.
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Old 2009-11-02, 15:46   Link #99
Anh_Minh
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Originally Posted by Sackett View Post
I just recently watched Crest of the Stars and Banner of the Stars (all the way to III). It's become one of my favorites. I also ordered the books and just finished them. There were some interesting tidbits in there that were left out. For example, by seizing Jinto's home planet the Abh cut the rest of the space faring nations off from access to the Fath that lead outside the Milky Way to other galaxies. That's why Jinto's home world has such an important part in the start of the war, and has strategic importance.

I must say I am constantly astonished by the way some people think they are suppose to just accept the "Ahb good, Mankind bad" presentation. I mean, it's pretty obvious that Jinto doesn't believe the Ahb propoganda so why should we? Especially since Jinto is the viewer's avatar and our guide to relating to this strange world.

It's one of the things I really like about Crest of The Stars. It introduces the Ahb as the villians- clearly as the villians.
The invaders, yes. But as far as The Empire goes, they're pretty mellow.

Quote:
But then introduces us to good and friendly characters like Lafiel to make us forget this and start liking the Ahb. Every once in a while though we are shocked to discover things that shake this viewpoint. That United Mankind propaganda- obviously racist lies and bigotry- but wait- What? It's the truth!?
In part. It's true that the Abh were created (so were we, according to lots of religions...). It's false that they're unfeeling machines.

Quote:
Or we get exposed to bloodthirsty Spoor, or the Insanity Twins. What would our concept of the Ahb be like if they were the first Ahb Jinto had met?
Spoor isn't particularly bloodthirsty. No more than, say, Lafiel. (OK, maybe a bad example...) She and the Twins are more like Bunny Ears Lawyers than anything. They're quirky, but they get the job done.

If you want an example of how bad Abh can be... Well, there's Febdash. And you could go on about what looks like their casual disregard for human life, which concerns their culture as a whole. Though on further analysis, it looks more like a tendency to not whine about what can't be helped than actual indifference toward death. Well, that, and ruthlessness, which may actually save lives in the long run.

Quote:
That's one of the things I like about it. It makes us think. Which side should we really be cheering for.
The side that isn't planning genocide. It's bad enough to think yourself a master race (which the Abh arguably do), but it's much, much worse to deny other people's humanity (which is part and parcel of the Union's policy).

Also, as far as master races go, the Abh are, once again, rather mellow. A mere Lander was their Prime Minister (I guess that's a job Jinto can shoot for, if Lafiel goes for the throne...). Lafiel and her mother had no problem treating Jinto as Abh high nobility, either. That's what his papers said, and that was good enough for them, no matter what his genetic makeup was. Febdash, of course, was the exception, but he was pretty crazy. Note that his family history is another example of how little blood really matters to the Abh - his father was another Lander who got promoted to nobility.

Quote:
And in real life, it reminds us of inconvenient truths. For example, I bet there were a lot of nice Nazis. (I doubt there were many nice SS, but that's because they were selected to not be nice). Just because there were lots of nice Nazis does that mean we should agree with the Nazis, or that it was wrong to fight- and yes- kill them?
Are you trying to compare the Abh to the nazis? That doesn't hold much water for the reasons outlined above. They're, at worst, an idealized version of colonial Europe. They do think the world should be theirs and try to impose some basic rules on their dominions. But unlike the colonists, they're uninterested in actually colonizing those planets they conquer - they just want to dominate the spaceways.

Note, it doesn't take away the right of people to fight them, of course.

Quote:
I often wonder, if Jinto hadn't met Lafiel, would he have stayed loyal to the Ahb? Might he have gone over to United Mankind instead?
Possibly. He bore no grudge toward the Abh, even before meeting Lafiel. But he pretty much went with the flow, and his foster parents wanted to resist - he might have gone over to them.

Quote:
Also, would Lafiel be as nice as she is if not for Jinto's influence on her?
Nice, yes. Open-minded, maybe not. She was rather sheltered before she met him, so there was a lot of behaviors she couldn't even conceive of.

Quote:
I have to admit I found her threat to wipe out a planet's atmosphere breathtaking in it's ruthless indifference to human life.
I see that the same way I see guerilla tactics, or carpet bombing cities. It may not be "nice" (like there's a nice way to wage war...), but it plays to their strength, plain and simple. They have complete space superiority, but few men. Therefore orbital bombardment's really their only option. Though it would be nice if they had more graduated responses. Like wiping out cities before taking out the whole freaking atmosphere.

Quote:
Similarly, the show demonstrates both the strength and weakness of a noble/monarchy/feudal system. On one side we have Lafiel- but on the other we have bloodthirsty people like Spoor, and insane people like whats his name.
Spoor does her job, and does it well. Even if she is quirky. As she pointed out, she may treat it a bit too much like a game, but her people aren't going to die because of her stupidity. As for the way she treats her enemies... I can recall two instances where she could be called "bloodthirsty". Once when she said she wanted to pick on the weak - which is a matter of doctrine. That's where she thought her ships would be of most use. And since she's presented as very competent, she probably knows what she's talking about. The other was when the enemy tried to take hostages, and she interpreted the regulations on the treatment of prisoners rather creatively. That, too, is a matter of doctrine. To the Abh, rescuing the hostages is secondary to making sure the hostage takers don't profit from their crime. That they, in fact, regret it dearly. Additionally, it provided enough pressure to save them in the end, which the standard answer of just attacking might not have.

But yeah, Febdash was crazy.

Last edited by Anh_Minh; 2009-11-03 at 15:19.
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Old 2009-11-02, 16:30   Link #100
SagaraSouske
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Ah, one of my all time favorite series. Too bad it didn't do well enough to get all the later books turned into full series and too bad the author didn't develop the story and characters more - so much lost opportunity with such a rich setting.
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