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Old 2004-06-26, 14:17   Link #61
_Sin_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Well it's perfectly legal as long as it is not based on reality, and it's true for almost all countries of the world.
Somehow I don't know... Fiction should have it's boundaries too
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Old 2004-06-26, 14:22   Link #62
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sin_
Somehow I don't know... Fiction should have it's boundaries too
Well there are far worse things you can find in hentai including guros
And for the ignorants, guro is something that you wouldn't want to see (like 5chan would say : scat, mutilation, etc.).

Edit for Sil Eighty

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiL Eighty
She saying this.... If the girls age is 12 or under than it can qualify as lolicon. Sometimes the girls are said to be 12 but actually look alot older and can be passed on into the hentai genre, and vis versa.

For this type of stuff though you dont really go by age but by looks.
Do you mean something like that?
Spoiler:
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Last edited by Thany; 2004-06-26 at 15:29.
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Old 2004-06-26, 17:45   Link #63
mantidor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Well there are far worse things you can find in hentai including guros
And for the ignorants, guro is something that you wouldn't want to see (like 5chan would say : scat, mutilation, etc.).

Edit for Sil Eighty

Do you mean something like that?
Spoiler:
I've unfortunatly seen younger >_<! damn chan sites I still don't get it how this is not pedophilia... oh well, better not go into that discussion again...

Talking about how legal can be here in Colombia is completly illegal any form of child pornography, wether is fictional or not, drawn or real photos or whatever form it can have. The ISPs actually have to block every site with child pornography, I read that somewhere. Im not sure that fictional child pornography is illegal in most parts of the world, probably is not that is illegal but more like the issue hasn't been addressed or people are simple unaware of it, if this becomes more known among society im sure a lot of countries will have to forbid such content because people will demand it.
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Old 2004-06-26, 18:41   Link #64
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantidor
Talking about how legal can be here in Colombia is completly illegal any form of child pornography, wether is fictional or not, drawn or real photos or whatever form it can have. The ISPs actually have to block every site with child pornography, I read that somewhere. Im not sure that fictional child pornography is illegal in most parts of the world, probably is not that is illegal but more like the issue hasn't been addressed or people are simple unaware of it, if this becomes more known among society im sure a lot of countries will have to forbid such content because people will demand it.
Well then I'm sad for your country since almost all the civilised countries have declared it legal ; and that include the USA since some months ^^
Note that child pornography is still illegal in all countries (well I hope so) and that lolicons isn't considered child pornography And that's why it's considered legal.
Of course, since in your country there are no difference between those you asimilate them as the same, but they're not
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Old 2004-06-26, 19:25   Link #65
mantidor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Well then I'm sad for your country since almost all the civilised countries have declared it legal ; and that include the USA since some months ^^
Note that child pornography is still illegal in all countries (well I hope so) and that lolicons isn't considered child pornography And that's why it's considered legal.
Of course, since in your country there are no difference between those you asimilate them as the same, but they're not
I really hope you are not implying that my country is uncivilized for not allowing lolicon

as for the other part, im too tired to argue again, for me is still the same, but as long as no real children are involved, I don't care.

Now for some fun, latest reputation recieved from this thread
"You annoy me to the hell with your child pornography theory ; quit trolling!"
I dont know how is that im trolling with this... well I wont mention the topic again anyway, you are so sensitive about it...
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Old 2004-06-26, 20:36   Link #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Biohazard
I agree that 4chan might be able to survive if he made it a pay site. For example only one page per category viewable by visitors and the others only for paying members. I mean it doesnt have to be overly much .. and i guess i would pay a few $$ for 4chan, since it was a GREAT page to find high quality pics to tinker with in photoshop...

I'm just glad that i saved a few hundered high quality pics that i liked...

And yeah, there is moeboard.net as well Worth to check out ^^
There's justs a problem about moeboard--it's Korean and since the South-Koreans abandoned Hanyu, there's no way I can read it
for now I use this one:
http://moe.homelinux.net/
It's Japanese, and even without kanji, I know more about Japanese than I do Korean
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夜空に星が瞬くように Yozora ni hoshi ga matataku youni,|Sure as the nightsky full of twinkling stars,
溶けた心は離れない Toketa kokoro wa hanare nai|There shall be no separating these melting hearts;
例えこの手が離れても Tatoe kono te ga hanare temo|Even if these hands should ever part,
二人がそれを忘れぬ限り Futari ga soreo wasurenu kagiri|As long as it's never forgotten by these two in love.

君が望む永遠 Kimi ga Nozomu Eien|The Eternity of Your Wish
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Old 2004-06-27, 03:42   Link #67
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mantidor
as for the other part, im too tired to argue again, for me is still the same, but as long as no real children are involved, I don't care.
Drawings are drawings, it's not like they were real, you must learn to know what's the difference between fiction and reality.
I don't understand how you could say that lolicon, or guro or rape or anything that would be illegal in reality are the same as the real ones.
If we follow your way of thinking, we should just forbid every drawing and make them illegal because they're all 'evil'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Melazoma
There's justs a problem about moeboard--it's Korean and since the South-Koreans abandoned Hanyu, there's no way I can read it
for now I use this one:
http://moe.homelinux.net/
It's Japanese, and even without kanji, I know more about Japanese than I do Korean
Well the moeboard also give you a translation site to translate :
Japanese <--> Korean and English <--> Korean
So it shouldn't be hard to understand it
But there are also others boards that are Japanese and that are also pretty good source IMO (though I couldn't link them here since they sometimes have adult content).
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Old 2004-06-27, 04:03   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Drawings are drawings, it's not like they were real, you must learn to know what's the difference between fiction and reality.
though they're only drawings and not real... they still affect humanity... those drawings force rapes and other bad things to children(especially to those malicious minded)...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
I don't understand how you could say that lolicon, or guro or rape or anything that would be illegal in reality are the same as the real ones.
are you saying that guro or rape is legal on reality!?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
If we follow your way of thinking, we should just forbid every drawing and make them illegal because they're all 'evil'.
I think mantidor only ment to forbid drawings that contains nude 12 yr. old children in it...
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Old 2004-06-27, 04:26   Link #69
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_Burn
though they're only drawings and not real... they still affect humanity... those drawings force rapes and other bad things to children(especially to those malicious minded)...

are you saying that guro or rape is legal on reality!?...

I think mantidor only ment to forbid drawings that contains nude 12 yr. old children in it...
Wake up, drawings /= reality!
Or else we should forbid every game where you kill because killing is bad : that's exactly what you mean.
Drawings doesn't make people rape or do anything wrong or else we should forbid anything that would show violence sexuality ; if you're mentaly conscient, you know that was is being done is not to be done in reality.
I have never said that rape/guro are legal in reality : read my post more carefully.
If you can't even get to understand what people say, just don't reply.
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Last edited by Thany; 2004-06-27 at 04:46.
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Old 2004-06-27, 05:05   Link #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Wake up, drawings /= reality!
am I saying that drawings are equal to reality?... I just said that drawings that contains adult content in it affects malicious persons...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Or else we should forbid every game were you kill because killing is bad.
why are you changing the subject so suddenly?... hmm...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
I have never said that rape/guro are legal in reality : read my post more carefully.
Hmm... you're right I did'nt read that sentence very carefully... sorry...
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Old 2004-06-27, 05:31   Link #71
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_Burn
why are you changing the subject so suddenly?... hmm...
I'm not changing of subject : I'm giving another example since you like violent games to show you that if you followed your way of thinking, those sort of games should also be forbidden.
But personally I would find this wrong, as long as you have a little bit of intelligence, you should know that what is done in games shouldn't be done in reality if they're not allowed
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Old 2004-06-27, 05:54   Link #72
Melazoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sid_Burn
am I saying that drawings are equal to reality?... I just said that drawings that contains adult content in it affects malicious persons...
why are you changing the subject so suddenly?... hmm...
And drawings, depictions, or god forbid, the ability to control depictions of mass-murder does not "affect malicious persons"?

Although I am not a fan of hand/digitally-drawn depictions of girls that are obviously to young to be called "12 and older" in sexual situations, I am against the idea that "just because a ficticious creation has the tendency to incite criminal behavior, said fictitious creation must be struck down."

As far as American law as I understand it, the law regulates "actions" and not "thoughts." While a fictitious creation(video game, animation, comics, novels) may depict the images of wanton mayhem(Grand Theft Auto and just about every other FPS) and/or illicit minor sexual intercourse(Lolita the novel and movies, Romeo and Juliet the Shakespeare play and modern movies), does not preclude it from being an "artistic creation" and thus said creation is protected by the Constitution of the United States.

The Bible that so many god-loving Americans hold dear to is filled with graphic and explicit details of illicit and steamy sexual relations, some of them incest. God-forbid that the entire Bible gets animated--I for one, would like to see that. What's even funnier is that the Bible is supposed to have been based upon actual historical events of the past and thus not "fictitious," so to speak. Does that fact make the Bible even worse than hentai? Okay, I may be going to far there.

If you were to classify all fictitious creations erotic, pedophilal, vilolent, and filled with human vices, "a danger to society," and thus must be eliminated as such, artistic creations as we know it will seize to exist.
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夜空に星が瞬くように Yozora ni hoshi ga matataku youni,|Sure as the nightsky full of twinkling stars,
溶けた心は離れない Toketa kokoro wa hanare nai|There shall be no separating these melting hearts;
例えこの手が離れても Tatoe kono te ga hanare temo|Even if these hands should ever part,
二人がそれを忘れぬ限り Futari ga soreo wasurenu kagiri|As long as it's never forgotten by these two in love.

君が望む永遠 Kimi ga Nozomu Eien|The Eternity of Your Wish
サカイ殿、漢字のティプ、感謝しました
Sig. Note: The Japanese text is transcribed from the lines spoken in the show by myself (not good enough in Japanese). I'd like everyone knowledgable in Japanese to correct me in any errors|For the English translation: If anyone skilled in English comes up with a better, more poetic interpretation, I'm all ears.
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Old 2004-06-27, 06:47   Link #73
_Sin_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melazoma
As far as American law as I understand it, the law regulates "actions" and not "thoughts." While a fictitious creation(video game, animation, comics, novels) may depict the images of wanton mayhem(Grand Theft Auto and just about every other FPS) and/or illicit minor sexual intercourse(Lolita the novel and movies, Romeo and Juliet the Shakespeare play and modern movies), does not preclude it from being an "artistic creation" and thus said creation is protected by the Constitution of the United States.

The Bible that so many god-loving Americans hold dear to is filled with graphic and explicit details of illicit and steamy sexual relations, some of them incest. God-forbid that the entire Bible gets animated--I for one, would like to see that. What's even funnier is that the Bible is supposed to have been based upon actual historical events of the past and thus not "fictitious," so to speak. Does that fact make the Bible even worse than hentai? Okay, I may be going to far there.
A provoking question then: Would it be allowed to produce a game in which you can play the 9/11 terrorists steering into the WTC or into other building at other times like running amok in the White House. While the first part bases on reality and will most likely be forbidden, the latter is fiction - tasteless fiction I might add. Now applying your logic would mean that every American can buy such a game and participate in killing Bush or whatever in his thoughts.
I really hope that this "artistic creation" is NOT protected by the Constitution of the United States or any other country for that matter. Any thoughts on this?
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Old 2004-06-27, 07:26   Link #74
tsurumaru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sin_
A provoking question then: Would it be allowed to produce a game in which you can play the 9/11 terrorists steering into the WTC or into other building at other times like running amok in the White House. While the first part bases on reality and will most likely be forbidden, the latter is fiction - tasteless fiction I might add. Now applying your logic would mean that every American can buy such a game and participate in killing Bush or whatever in his thoughts.
I really hope that this "artistic creation" is NOT protected by the Constitution of the United States or any other country for that matter. Any thoughts on this?
Erm sorry to disillusion you but there was a big uproar about three months after 9/11 when it was revealed that there was already a home grown UT2003 mod based on you being trapped in the WTC when the planes hit.............

I found a screenshot and the game homepage I have to say although its entitled 9/11 Survivor it looks incredibaly tasteless and would warn you that if you have any emotional issues surrounding 911 to think twice before following the link in the spoiler brackets.

Spoiler:


Homepage:

http://www.kinematic.org/911.html

I guess my point is however sacred you think something is sadly someone somewhere will be willing to trample over it........
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Last edited by tsurumaru; 2004-06-27 at 07:46.
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Old 2004-06-27, 07:27   Link #75
Melazoma
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sin_
A provoking question then: Would it be allowed to produce a game in which you can play the 9/11 terrorists steering into the WTC or into other building at other times like running amok in the White House. While the first part bases on reality and will most likely be forbidden, the latter is fiction - tasteless fiction I might add. Now applying your logic would mean that every American can buy such a game and participate in killing Bush or whatever in his thoughts.
I really hope that this "artistic creation" is NOT protected by the Constitution of the United States or any other country for that matter. Any thoughts on this?
Oh I'm sure there are people out there having fantasies about killing Bush But that's all it is: fantasy.

A supposed video game where the player would simulate the terrorists' action in the events of September the 11th of 2001 would, to the letter and the spirit of the law, be protected under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

Such a supposed video game will not sell, plain and simple, for it is devoid of consideration for the victims of the tragedy that it attempts to simulate. Said video game will be shunned by every retailer, shouted down by every soccor mom, its publisher hunted down by every rednecks in the country, and bring all the politicians together to ban it, and they may very well succeed in doing so. But that's just politics.

Note that I'm speaking in "ideally" terms

The law is the law, you can't have it one way when you like it, and have it another way when it suits what you like. The letter of the law guarantees "freedom of speech," not "freedom of speech only when it's mainstream."
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夜空に星が瞬くように Yozora ni hoshi ga matataku youni,|Sure as the nightsky full of twinkling stars,
溶けた心は離れない Toketa kokoro wa hanare nai|There shall be no separating these melting hearts;
例えこの手が離れても Tatoe kono te ga hanare temo|Even if these hands should ever part,
二人がそれを忘れぬ限り Futari ga soreo wasurenu kagiri|As long as it's never forgotten by these two in love.

君が望む永遠 Kimi ga Nozomu Eien|The Eternity of Your Wish
サカイ殿、漢字のティプ、感謝しました
Sig. Note: The Japanese text is transcribed from the lines spoken in the show by myself (not good enough in Japanese). I'd like everyone knowledgable in Japanese to correct me in any errors|For the English translation: If anyone skilled in English comes up with a better, more poetic interpretation, I'm all ears.
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Old 2004-06-27, 13:49   Link #76
mantidor
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Oh my... I didn't want to turn this again into an awful flame war... let me clarify some things that I should clarfied from the beginning.

I dont consider lolicon to be wrong! and yes, that implies that I don't consider pedophilia to be wrong either! is human nature! as I said, as long as real children are not involved is perfectly fine,

an interesting fact I heard the other day: in some tribes of indians in my country girls get married and have children since they are twelve!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thany
Drawings are drawings, it's not like they were real, you must learn to know what's the difference between fiction and reality.
I don't understand how you could say that lolicon, or guro or rape or anything that would be illegal in reality are the same as the real ones.
If we follow your way of thinking, we should just forbid every drawing and make them illegal because they're all 'evil'.
Im saying that is the same because people like this situations. If they don't like these then why draw them?

When Im playing a game in which I can use a huge scythe and chop off heads of people, trust me, i enjoy killing them, its fun!, does this mean I would enjoy it in real life? I don't know, maybe, but does it mean I would actually do it? NO, the thing in games, drawings etc is that there is no consecuences since no real people are involved, We can enjoy this things, but we don't do it in real life since we are aware that there are consecuences for us and for the other people involved, Im not referring to jail or legal stuff, Im refering to the moral and ethical background we all have, we know this is wrong in real life.
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Old 2004-06-27, 15:06   Link #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Melazoma
Oh I'm sure there are people out there having fantasies about killing Bush But that's all it is: fantasy.

A supposed video game where the player would simulate the terrorists' action in the events of September the 11th of 2001 would, to the letter and the spirit of the law, be protected under the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

Such a supposed video game will not sell, plain and simple, for it is devoid of consideration for the victims of the tragedy that it attempts to simulate. Said video game will be shunned by every retailer, shouted down by every soccor mom, its publisher hunted down by every rednecks in the country, and bring all the politicians together to ban it, and they may very well succeed in doing so. But that's just politics.

Note that I'm speaking in "ideally" terms

The law is the law, you can't have it one way when you like it, and have it another way when it suits what you like. The letter of the law guarantees "freedom of speech," not "freedom of speech only when it's mainstream."
Bill of Rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Just my thoughts but with this right/privledge to freedom of speech we are given comes heavy resposibility. Just because we are gauranteed the right to say
Spoiler:
doesn't mean we should.....
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Old 2004-06-27, 16:13   Link #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveOfAnime
Bill of Rights

Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Just my thoughts but with this right/privledge to freedom of speech we are given comes heavy resposibility. Just because we are gauranteed the right to say
Spoiler:
doesn't mean we should.....
I know this is off topic but..... since you brought that up.... Vice President Cheney in the House of Representatives told a Congress man to
Quote:
Go Fuck yourself
Thats not a lie, but hes sure being a good role modle for the rest of the country huh?
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Old 2004-06-27, 16:16   Link #79
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Let's not forget that, of the six billion people on the planet, less than three hundred million are covered by US laws. Throwing around the constitution and what it stands for is rather futile, especially considering where this site is hosted.

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Old 2004-06-27, 17:13   Link #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SiL Eighty
I know this is off topic but..... since you brought that up.... Vice President Cheney in the House of Representatives told a Congress man to

Thats not a lie, but hes sure being a good role modle for the rest of the country huh?

That's the true nature of our wonderful (Note the sarcasm here!) Politicians showing through. Obviously I have a low opinion of our current leaders...........
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