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Old 2007-02-09, 03:18   Link #81
NoSanninWa
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Ah. I finished last week, but I just haven't gotten around to posting my final thoughts. I'll get to them after this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
For a drop-out kid whose druken lush of a mother had him at 15 for a dad he's never seen I'd say becoming the most powerful being on earth ain't too shabby...
Wow. When you put it like that, things really fall into perspective

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Originally Posted by wingdarkness View Post
And for Keiko aslong as time has existed... [much stuff left out so refer to the original post for wingdarkness' brilliance]
Once again you put it in perspective. I can easily see it the way you describe their future. Now for my final thoughts on the series...



Holy Wow. That was a heck of a finale. It was probably my favorite way to end a shounen out of every shounen I have ever seen.

First the bad: It was way too short. Those last dozen episodes went by as fast as Saint Seiya's Hades Chapter. The usual pacing for this show would have been at least twice as long so I felt like the show was getting cancelled and they had to rush it off the air. I really wanted to see some of those fights play out.

Now the good: Everyone grew up. By the end, they were the same people as at the beginning, only wiser. They had worked out their demons and figured out what was most important. Now, instead of just living in the day they could look forward to tomorrow.

Spoiler for end of YuYu Hakusho:

While there are elements of Flame of Recca that I really prefered to YuYu Hakuso, the marvelous ending managed to push YuYu Hakusho into the position of my favorite shounen. Recca drops to number two.
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Old 2007-02-09, 14:15   Link #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSW
Holy Wow. That was a heck of a finale. It was probably my favorite way to end a shounen out of every shounen I have ever seen.
Yep..."Bang!"

This series just has so much depth and creativity for a fighter...

And now it's your number 1?? Wow that makes all this worth it....

Spoiler for The After:


MORE TO COME...
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Old 2007-02-09, 17:20   Link #83
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Well I finally finished this series after seeing the first 50 something eps a few years ago. I have to say, after the 3rd arc, I thought it was going down the drain but the last 6 episodes were fantastic. Especially the ending. Oh and, after finally watching every episode and having seen every Bleach episode so far, I have to say that Bleach is the biggest Yu Yu rip off ever.
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Old 2007-02-09, 21:22   Link #84
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The manga did went a little little little bit longer, but for all it's worth, it wasn't that much.

Spoiler for manga:
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Old 2007-02-10, 04:09   Link #85
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Thanks for telling us the rest of the wrap-up. It might have been nice if that had been added, but I can't really complain. I certainly would not have wanted another arc on this show since a perfect ending is too precious to ruin for cheap thrills.

Spoiler for not ruining the Narration Joke:

Incidently, Jorge Satome was nameless for 2 arcs and then suddenly at the beginning of the Dark Tournament Koenma calls him Jorge as if he has had that name all along. O.o I found it a bit jarring the way that his name was suddenly being used. I wonder if the writer had just realized at the beginning of that arc that Jorge could be a character instead of a prop.

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Originally Posted by iamtheSOUND View Post
Oh and, after finally watching every episode and having seen every Bleach episode so far, I have to say that Bleach is the biggest Yu Yu rip off ever.
Hey, don't undercount Bleach so much. Bleach is also the biggest Dragonball rip off ever! Not just any anime can rip off two shows so well. Large parts of Bleach are not very original, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
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Old 2007-02-11, 16:58   Link #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
Thanks for telling us the rest of the wrap-up. It might have been nice if that had been added, but I can't really complain. I certainly would not have wanted another arc on this show since a perfect ending is too precious to ruin for cheap thrills.

Spoiler for not ruining the Narration Joke:

Incidently, Jorge Satome was nameless for 2 arcs and then suddenly at the beginning of the Dark Tournament Koenma calls him Jorge as if he has had that name all along. O.o I found it a bit jarring the way that his name was suddenly being used. I wonder if the writer had just realized at the beginning of that arc that Jorge could be a character instead of a prop.

Hey, don't undercount Bleach so much. Bleach is also the biggest Dragonball rip off ever! Not just any anime can rip off two shows so well. Large parts of Bleach are not very original, but that doesn't mean it isn't good.
So your not the only one. When Koenma first used the name Jorge Saotome I was like "Wait who is Jorge Saotome, who is he talking about" and then when the ogre started to reply to the name I thought "That is the stupidest name I've ever heard for an ogre. I love it!"
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Old 2007-02-12, 03:01   Link #87
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Man. Finally got around to watch this show which someone I knew really loves, and sure enough I love it too. I guess there's really zero continuations of any sort for any of the plotlines?

Honestly, the only plotline I really care about is Hiei since there's so much potential in his relationships with Mukurou and his sister. I probably missed the point of the entire series and should be caring about Yuusuke/Keiko, but yeah, instead I'm really intrigued by Hiei/Mukurou and disappointed so much of their interaction was left unfulfilled and what did happen was portrayed very subjectively.

The only thing that threw me off were the constant presence of the Yuusuke fan club (those 1D characters who got beat in the dark tournament) and the interaction where Yuusuke was okay with those demons eating humans, even remembering them fondly the second to last episode. I guess that's because I didn't really understand Yuusuke and thought the way he felt most fulfilled was when he acted out of righteous determination / kindness stemming from his moral drive and sense of rightness (if that makes sense) but instead I didn't realize that he really was just so... unconventional and uncertain of what he believed in, the whole time, with his "reason" changing and evolving frequently rather than having a basis in some ultimate truth he would slowly discover. In other words, the fact that it wasn't cliche threw me off (which was a good thing).
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Old 2007-02-12, 03:18   Link #88
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Heh, I prefer Hiei as well compared to Yuusuke. He is one of my favourite male tsunderes after all. :3

Hm...personally, I wasn't too fond of Hiei/Mukurou. There was clearly a missing gap of their character development and interaction that we never got to clearly see within the time-frame they spent together and argubly, the gap only became a little bit closer following Mukurou's facial revelation. It's okay when he's with Yukina, but it creeps me out to see him acting all tsundere with Mukurou. In it's own way, Hiei's "Happy Birthday" to Mukurou at the manga was both so un-Hieiish and at the same time...it is. Not to mention sometimes, I get the feeling Mukurou's more like an older sister/mother to Hiei it disturbs me.

And it creeps it out as well because for some reason, I cannot look at Hiei/Yukina without a non-incestous point of view. It's happening to me at 2 different shonens running currently as well.

Mukurou should really just heal her face and keep her hair long like she used to. Maybe she doesn't like it because it reminds her of her tragic past (( I still wonder how the hell the greatest of the 3 demons started off as THAT )), but she looked much better.
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Old 2007-02-12, 08:20   Link #89
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Not to mention sometimes, I get the feeling Mukurou's more like an older sister/mother to Hiei it disturbs me.
That is not actually too far off the mark, as it is more than likely that as an S-Class Demon. Mukuro has been around for a few thousand years, easily the senior of Hiei, who is but a "mere" A-Class demon.

Bear in mind, as Sensui said, A-Class Demons are already what we mortals consider to be Gods, to say nothing of the literally World-Shattering powers of each and every S-Class demon. Hence unless one is a freak of nature/exception to the rule like Urameshi Yuusuke who got really lucky and is BORN with such power, you had to WORK for it from the ground up.

Mukuro and Yomi BOTH started out as Lowly D-Class demons, and had to work for hundreds if no thousands to years to get where they are now. So its not that surprising that Mukuro has seen more Centuries than Hiei has.

But what a payoff, especially if you are a nice demon who is capable of loving humans: S-Class Demons can have children with humans if they are ever inclined to try, which is why I'm happy for the central couple of the series, Yuusuke and Keiko, who will still have a future as a married couple outside combat.

But, measure for measure, it makes me feel painfully sorry for my favourite (probable) couple of YYH: Kuwabara and Cute-Lil Yukina-Chan. There is just so much pure love and affection between the SWEETEST and CUTEST couple of the series, but even if they ever did get together, poor Kuwabara's family and bloodline will die with him in old age if he stays faithful with her (more than likely an E-Class Demon). Poor kids.
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Old 2007-02-12, 08:59   Link #90
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Personally, I was not fond (( that's putting it nicely )) of Kuwabara/Yukina. It's not that it wasn't cute and endearing to some extent...I suppose the lack of dorama within the context of their relationship along with the several issues kind of made me a damper on their relationship. She is Hiei's sister, and I was kinda dissapointed that Kuwabara is still oblivious/no one tells one even at the end. Though I can't blame him, no thanks to Hiei the Stalker Bat. I suppose I just prefer the weird sibling tension that goes on between Hiei/Yukina compared to the one-sided fluff of Kuwabara/Yukina. It kinda makes it worse that Kuwabara is dead set on pursuing a 'normal human' life. Of course, anyone can argue Yuusuke and Kurama's doing the same on certain levels, but there's really no relationship problem there. Even Koenma's found some form of caring love....though I am a little bit sad that "the girl that approved of Keiko when Yuusuke was floating dead" totally dissapeared from Yu Yu after that. I kinda wished she would've returned even for a short cameo. Togashi didn't forget about Puu or even the 3 Brothers under Toguro.

Hiei is no "mere" A-class. As of Yu Yu's ending, he's nowhere near the 3 Kings (( Full-powered Mukurou pretty much owned him with one hit and had Raizen ate humans...who knows )), but Mukurou pretty much stated A-class is no more a match for him. Probably low S class or somewhere between A and S, but hardly weak.

Talking about Hiei, it's a real pity we never got to find out about his dad. Mukurou said that he was a powerful demon, and likewise rightfully so, especially when a freaking baby of his that is a mere child by demon's standards is already an A-class. For all we know, had Hiei not been so careless and obsessive over the pendant, there might've been 4 Kings, not 3.

You sure Yomi was a D? I don't recall that ever being stated, but we do know he's at least an A or B when he was blinded, considering that he was A-class Kurama's no.2 guy. Mukurou for sure started damn low and late, being a sex slave to lame fatass demons.
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Old 2007-02-12, 12:08   Link #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Myopius
I guess that's because I didn't really understand Yuusuke and thought the way he felt most fulfilled was when he acted out of righteous determination / kindness stemming from his moral drive and sense of rightness (if that makes sense) but instead I didn't realize that he really was just so... unconventional and uncertain of what he believed in, the whole time, with his "reason" changing and evolving frequently rather than having a basis in some ultimate truth he would slowly discover. In other words, the fact that it wasn't cliche threw me off (which was a good thing).
And that's one of the reasons he's such a refreshing shonen lead...If you catch a random YuYu ep you'll think he's just like most bada$$ shonen fighters but he's not...Over the course of the show his temperment and goals change and shape in a way not quite consistent with the bad-attitude good guy shonen leads...He defines his archetype as much as it defines him IMO...and like you said it's far from cliche and more about coming to terms...

Most characters like him just go thru the course of a series never actually examining what life holds in store for someone with such freakish abilities...It's great how Yusuke (so young, so powerful) is almost burdened by the fact he's already apexed beyond what he ever imagined. LOL He only wanted to be the baddest street fighting drop-out kid in Japan and here he is as an 18 year old boy with the power to destroy earth if need be...What's the future hold being able to do $hit like that?? (Especially when the 2 spirit detectives before him became shells of their former selves after their time was up with Sensui completely cracking because of his idealistic purity) That's why 3 Kings was crucial and realistic in it's final development for him. It put his life into perspective in a way that couldn't have been achieved without him going to demon-world...In a sense he was the embodiment of Sensui's devine shortcomings as an individual...

In alot of shonen's I look for side-characters like Hiei or others because sometimes it's lame to only like the main-character when side characters and villains seem to have a mystery about them via a lack in overall screentime, but not in this case...Yusuke is my favorite character because he gives such a genred and cliche' character a realistic dynamic...Especially in the progression of his character...Him and Sensui are two of my all-time favorite characters in all of anime...

What seperates him from characters like Ichigo (Bleach) or Kazuma (Scryed) is that his bada$$ness is authentic in the context of the story...Not like Kazuma who has an over-the-top almost insane craving for vulgarity and fighting...Not like Ichigo who's a bada$$ in Shinigami form but in school is a good student who all the girls secretly have crushes on...None of this passive agressive foolishness with Uramechi...He was hated by nearly every teacher, every clique, every peer he ever knew (And pretty much with good reason at first)...No father, no little kawaii~sisters to have to watch over...Mother a complete drunken mess not some martyr to give inspiration to his life...Father a no show who is only mentioned as being a street demon just like his son ironically...That's why Yusuke's cool, because while he had the potential power of a hero or chosen one he didn't have the drive nor caring to want to be one...and to watch his crude and sometimes laid-back transformation was a great experience...What makes that funny is that's why Koenma picked him!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ngale
Talking about Hiei, it's a real pity we never got to find out about his dad. Mukurou said that he was a powerful demon, and likewise rightfully so, especially when a freaking baby of his that is a mere child by demon's standards is already an A-class. For all we know, had Hiei not been so careless and obsessive over the pendant, there might've been 4 Kings, not 3.
Hmmm, perhaps I'm a bit foggy, but I remember the anime clearly stating Hiei was a middle of the pack B or B- during the Dark Tournament and later it is suggested that his Jagen-eye is what leveled him past C-class (Sensui also points out that Hiei started as a C-class demon)...I don't remember hearing Hiei was Class A as a baby at all (Atleast not in the anime)...I also think it's important to note that Hiei's advancements come in the form of techniques he's acquired (perhaps morso than his own true powers)...In other words he relies on that heavily(since he almost never shows his yokai form--I mean if he's A class as a baby then getting the Jagen and Dark Flame Dragons would have got him close to S-class, yet he was still slightly under Yusuke after he got the soul-ball...


Furthermore I think it's odd that Hiei shows his true-form only once the entire series during his intial fight with Yusuke (He also shows it in the OVA "Poltergiest Report" too)You would have thought during his fight with Sensui atleast he would have shown his pure demon form especially with the increase in Youkai energy via Yusuke's reqium...Perhaps he's ashamed of looking like a green freak with the jagen eyeballs covering his whole body (Obviously the eyes are artificial but his powered-up green form shouldn't be because Kurama turned back into Yoko when his demon energy increased in the cave)...Never understood why he never changed back, but that goes back to my point about his artificial enhancments are more powerful than his raw demon energy...Anyways I think his creepy green form is cool though...
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Old 2007-02-12, 12:35   Link #92
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Most anime heroes are Good People With Flaws that make them human, but in the context of this conversation, I must state that Urameshi Yuusuke is a realistic teeange boy in that he is a horror of a human being with miniscule redeeming qualities that tie him to humanity.

Sure, he is capable of loving and caring for people, but notice how this only occurs in the series only towards someone he deems worthy of kindness, and more importantly, when he feels like it. Unlike the anime populace in general, his love is conditional and arbitrary, and can be retracted as fast as it is given.

It is not out of duty that he fights monsters with such relish, but out of a personal need to reaffirm his own notions of masculinity. Yuusuke is angered by the behaviors of demons like the Toguro brothers not because they harm innocent people, but because they violate his perceived notions of what honorable masculinity is. It is quite likely he helped Kurama live to see his mother not because he actually loves his drunk-slut-of-a-mother, but because he thinks it is UNMASCULINE to make your mother cry.

Quite honestly, Urameshi Yuusuke is a selfish brat who would gladly sacrifice the world for a good fight, as shown by his gleeful indifference of the demon portal opening when weighed against fighting Sensui. It is quite likely he would not have shod a singluar tear if the door of Hell did open and the monsters that flooded out tore his mother and Keiko apart: After all, he would have gotten the fight that affirmed his masculinity.

Not that any of the above qualities makes him lovable in the least, quite the opposite actually. But as having been a Teenage Boy once upon a time, under the obligatory social yoke of peer pressure (in an ALL BOYS School no less) to be stereotypically masculine no matter the cost, I find Urameshi Yuusuke to be the most down to earth, and Emotionally REALISTIC Boy in recent Anime.

I do NOT actually LIKE this horrible Schmuck of a human being
Spoiler:
but I still cheer for him because he is so DAMN easy to relate to for anyone who has ever being a boy.
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Old 2007-02-12, 13:23   Link #93
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Quite honestly, Urameshi Yuusuke is a selfish brat who would gladly sacrifice the world for a good fight, as shown by his gleeful indifference of the demon portal opening when weighed against fighting Sensui. It is quite likely he would not have shod a singluar tear door if Hell did open and the monsters that flooded out tore his mother and Keiko apart: After all, he would have gotten the fight that affirmed his masculinity.
That's true in part, but he's impulsive and thrives in the moment...If he had to sit at a table and think about Keiko and other humans being torn asunder he wouldn't subscribe to being indifferent, but at that moment it was important for him to let Sensui know he was nothing like him (That he couldn't be swayed by any wordplay)...Later on you see Sensui even tells Yusukes he likes that about him...The enjoyment of just fighting even if it was for just a little bit...His focus on his opponent and not the circumstances is one of his more enlightened qualities and keeps him single-minded on victory...An in the battle Yusuke dripping with intensity ain't the same Yusuke listening to Grandma rant, or coaxing Keiko...

As for the rest of your analysis...I have to say while I agree in part with the spirit of your examination, I see him a bit differently than just a "horror of a human being with miniscule redeeming qualities that tie him to humanity." I think alot of things tie him to humanity and he has shown his humanity countless times, but as a boy he just expresses alot of it thru aggression and indifference rather than thinking hard on it (like a Sensui)...If he would have acted all crying and passionate about Sensui opening the demon-portal he would have played right into Sensui's catharsis...You can see how frustrated Sensui is that Yususke isn't even capable of engaging in an intellectual debate or dialouge over his turnabout...A different fighter may have been pursuaded or jaded, but Yusuke put it in simple terms, Me vs. You(period, end of sentence)...

Yusuke grows so much, yet when he's fighting (His personal joyfest) he exhibits that bullseye focus...If by the end of this story you still see Yusuke as someone with no redeeming value as a human and no real soulful qualities other than being a passionate brat then we see his character a bit differently. He's still a brut in some sense but he cares for the living world, his friends, and even the plight of someone like Raizen...Like any individual he's gonna care for those in his immediate circle more than the populace on whole, but I see that (Aswell as lots of his bravado) as a rouse of masculinity not his true heart...
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Old 2007-02-12, 20:46   Link #94
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Hmmm, perhaps I'm a bit foggy, but I remember the anime clearly stating Hiei was a middle of the pack B or B- during the Dark Tournament and later it is suggested that his Jagen-eye is what leveled him past C-class (Sensui also points out that Hiei started as a C-class demon)...I don't remember hearing Hiei was Class A as a baby at all (Atleast not in the anime)...I also think it's important to note that Hiei's advancements come in the form of techniques he's acquired (perhaps morso than his own true powers)...In other words he relies on that heavily(since he almost never shows his yokai form--I mean if he's A class as a baby then getting the Jagen and Dark Flame Dragons would have got him close to S-class, yet he was still slightly under Yusuke after he got the soul-ball...
You seem to have forgotten something important about Hiei. When he was born he was an A-class yokai, but he lost that strength. When he got the jagan eye he was deleveled to a D-class yokai and had to recreate his power from scratch.

I also find it odd that Hiei never showed his true yokai form after the first story arc. It is as if the writer completely forgot that Hiei has that built in power-up.
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Old 2007-02-14, 01:10   Link #95
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^Yeah I guess that's in his backstory ep...Haven't seen it in a while...

AS for his green form, like I said he sports it in Poltergiest Report which was made after the Dark Tournament arc, so they didn't completely drop the ball...But yes, strange we never see it again.
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Old 2007-02-14, 01:35   Link #96
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Hiei is a fire demon by birth and nature. What he looks like casually IS his real true form. Jagan and the Jagan-form are merely artificial extentions to his true power. I believe that he had to rely on Jagan when he was weaker as his fire powers were heavily diminished as a D-class, but as he got back closer to his true self's powers, Jagan and by extention, the Jagan Thousand-Eyes became nothing more than something extra.
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Old 2007-02-14, 03:48   Link #97
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So Jagen form makes you green and spawn fangs? Honestly I'd have to go back and watch the Yusuke vs Hiei early episode and Hiei's backstory ep again, but unless every Jagen users' face turns into something almost lizard-like I'd have to say it's inconclusive...The eyeballs are one thing, but the skin change, and natural facial change is something else. Plus many characters in YuYu have alternate forms...

The fact he never uses that form again seems to support your claim, but as NSW and I stated it seems strange we never see or get an explanation for it, and since the OVA "Poltergiest Report" loosely takes place after the Dark Tourney (where Hiei is already a level B) why would he have to go green-mode (which he had to do to avoid dying) to defeat the triclops guy in that movie? If it's indeed a weaker form...(In his B to A class state)To think those eyes make him weaker really doesn't compute...Unless he's operating on some Mystic Gohan level where he's so powerful now the added coolness of Jagen makes him weaker...
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Old 2007-02-14, 04:15   Link #98
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Poltergiest Report doesn't exist in manga canon. So, by extention, Togashi never had Hiei go Thousand-Eyes beyond the fight with Yuusuke.
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Old 2007-02-19, 01:10   Link #99
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^Well you're probably right, but you got to explain his lizard-like facial changes that don't seem to have anything to do with the eyes...I take it he just went the Mystic Gohan route....
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Old 2007-03-03, 13:55   Link #100
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I'll just put this whole thing in spoiler although I'm not sure it matters anymore.
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