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Old 2004-06-28, 15:13   Link #1
demonblade9
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Mircx replacement?

Just finished reading the "Inquiries/Replies" from that site. I'm suprised ADV got onto them so quickly, but I am impressed with the reply the made.

Heres how it goes...

***** is not under North American's laws. It is unfortunate that this Site is available in North America, since it has only been made for Comoros Islands' inhabitants, where ***** is acting from. Moreover, the referenced international copyright laws don't apply, since the Comoros Islands:
- didn't sign the International Berne Convention of 1886
- is not a state member of the WIPO.

***** is acting as an AUTOMATIC index of links, and the Protected Work you make reference to are NOT hosted on this server. If your corporation believes that "pointing to materials which you have property rights on" is an illegal fact, you may sue Google.com (2400 E. Bayshore Pkwy Mountain View, CA 94043, USA) having indexed this Site, under the Digital Millenium Copyright Act of 1998.



what do you guys think? it the reply good enough?
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Old 2004-06-28, 15:59   Link #2
Thany
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How about having a look here?
It's a thread about mircx
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Old 2004-06-28, 18:41   Link #3
Prince of Chronics
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the initial poster was talkin about the other site... not the one that got taken down a few weeks ago ...

on topic... we'll see how this goes... I don't want to see this site go too, but if it does go, it won't matter anyways... at least, they attempted a professional public reply to ADV's demand... they even have references... though, we'll have to wait and see if the site is still up in a week...
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Old 2004-06-28, 18:51   Link #4
Thany
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Hooo I see
The title was quite confusing actually And they're a bit related too
I guess that if the site isn't located in the US it might not have any problem with it, but we're never sure though.
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Old 2004-06-28, 19:49   Link #5
_Sin_
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Disclaimer: I know as much about laws as about rocket science (nothing ), so these are my thoughts on the issue at hand. Nothing more, nothing less.

Well, I think that they can't sue that site if it's true that the site owner operates the site from a location (Comoro Islands) not affected by the Berne Convention (I don't know what that WIPO thingy is). Note that the emphasis lies on from not for the Comoro Islands because that wouldn't change anything at all (i.e. a warez site operating from the US for the Comoro Islands). Only thing that ADV could do is asking the ISP to close down the site if the ISP is not located on the Comoro Islands as well. It's not even sure if they won't close the down if they are asked by ADV although they don't have to - kinda like an obligingness for ADV.

Another plus is that the site itself does not host any files nor does it provide trackers to use for distributing licensed anime. Therefore there's not much that ADV can do about. They can, however, try to solve the problem at the root, i.e. threatening fansubbers to stop working on licensed titles + letting the sites been shut down which actually host these torrent files - given that the host is not located in a country which has not signed the Berne Convention.
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Old 2004-06-28, 20:17   Link #6
AvatarADV
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Also depends on where the person who -runs- the site is from, of course. If you're from the US, you can't set up a site run from a small African nation so that you can avoid US law... YOU'RE still under those laws ('cause you live here! ;p) Mind you, the foreign hosting service might not take the site down, but OTOH that just means that there's no option but to sue you personally until you're too poor to afford a site in a foreign country...

Even if a given nation isn't a Berne signatory, they may still belong to WIPO; failing that, they may have bilateral agreements with Japan and/or the US concerning copyright, like Taiwan does.

As far as the linking goes, the 2600 case set a pretty clear precedent... you can't just link to another site to prevent yourself from being sued.

On top of all that, the DMCA puts a lot of emphasis on the context of a particular infringement. If the "automatic search" was in the context of Google, that would be one thing - in a site dedicated to anime piracy, the context is going to be completely different, and the judge will not be sympathetic to your "but Google does it" argument. ^_^

Seriously, guys, don't try to play amateur lawyer on this one. A federal lawsuit is extremely expensive to defend even if you're not guilty, and if you're pirating our anime, you're NOT going to win a suit on the issue. Don't stand in front of a freight train because you believe that it's supposed to stop for you!
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Old 2004-06-28, 20:25   Link #7
wnkryo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AvatarADV
Also depends on where the person who -runs- the site is from, of course. If you're from the US, you can't set up a site run from a small African nation so that you can avoid US law... YOU'RE still under those laws ('cause you live here! ;p) Mind you, the foreign hosting service might not take the site down, but OTOH that just means that there's no option but to sue you personally until you're too poor to afford a site in a foreign country...

Even if a given nation isn't a Berne signatory, they may still belong to WIPO; failing that, they may have bilateral agreements with Japan and/or the US concerning copyright, like Taiwan does.

As far as the linking goes, the 2600 case set a pretty clear precedent... you can't just link to another site to prevent yourself from being sued.

On top of all that, the DMCA puts a lot of emphasis on the context of a particular infringement. If the "automatic search" was in the context of Google, that would be one thing - in a site dedicated to anime piracy, the context is going to be completely different, and the judge will not be sympathetic to your "but Google does it" argument. ^_^

Seriously, guys, don't try to play amateur lawyer on this one. A federal lawsuit is extremely expensive to defend even if you're not guilty, and if you're pirating our anime, you're NOT going to win a suit on the issue. Don't stand in front of a freight train because you believe that it's supposed to stop for you!

Then I'm going to move to some african country (like zimbobway) and distribute all lisence anime by ADV on the net!

MuAhahHAhahaahhahaahh


Edit: But seriously though, p2p programs own you guys. No matter how many lisences or how much you reinforce the web to remove the content you guys copyrighted (like anime), you can not stop p2p programs from distributing your shit. Matter of fact, i want you to go right now and type in the name of any multimedia you guys lisence in any p2p program and you will see how much your pathetic lisence doesn't mean any thing on the web. So all some one has to do is upload some thing that you guys distribute, and half the world will have access to it.

Basically, all this lisences and copyrights don't mean much this day in age.
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Old 2004-06-28, 22:46   Link #8
microlith
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Quote:
But seriously though, p2p programs own you guys. No matter how many lisences or how much you reinforce the web to remove the content you guys copyrighted (like anime), you can not stop p2p programs from distributing your shit. Matter of fact, i want you to go right now and type in the name of any multimedia you guys lisence in any p2p program and you will see how much your pathetic lisence doesn't mean any thing on the web. So all some one has to do is upload some thing that you guys distribute, and half the world will have access to it.
I just don't know what to say.

Oh yes, yes I do:

Thanks for admitting you're just a fucking leech, and wholly undeserving of that which you enjoy. Please screw off.

ugh, that attitude grates on my nerves so much....
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Old 2004-06-28, 23:43   Link #9
boneyjellyfish
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microlith, "f---ing leech" is so passe. What you need to do is come up with a new word... something like, "fickloch". However, I must warn you that since I have created that word, any time you use it would therefore make you a fickloch.

/sarcasm

*edit* It seems that leeches are now FDA approved! SEE?! They're okay after all!

Quote:
it has only been made for Comoros Islands' inhabitants
I guess that would explain the wacky time schedule it seems to go by. What time zone are the Comoros Islands in, anyway? I saw the page start a new day when it was around the late afternoon over here in the EST side of things.
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Old 2004-06-29, 05:37   Link #10
SimplyEd
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boneyjellyfish
microlith, "f---ing leech" is so passe. What you need to do is come up with a new word... something like, "fickloch". However, I must warn you that since I have created that word, any time you use it would therefore make you a fickloch.

/sarcasm

*edit* It seems that leeches are now FDA approved! SEE?! They're okay after all!



I guess that would explain the wacky time schedule it seems to go by. What time zone are the Comoros Islands in, anyway? I saw the page start a new day when it was around the late afternoon over here in the EST side of things.


Nyahahaa...looks like you just invented an already existing german word....and since there are underaged people roaming around this thread i cannot fully describe its meaning..or lets say i could describe it, but there are some prudish guidelines around here, which i want to tolerate for now.

As for the issue at hand....whatever, it's just a mirror site so they won't face any legal actions. I said it before and i shall say it again, licensees should concentrate their efforts into delivering a good product instead of going after any pirate out there. It is quite obvious that piracy can't be stopped, which is a sad thing, but true nonetheless.
But if they would give their releases a little more effort, there would be more people buying their stuff..believe it or not, there are actually quite a lot of people who WANT to buy quality dvd releases...it's just that "quality" is a rare thing nowadays..just look at the recent prospects for future releases (this is the point where i will elegantly throw in the atrocity called "Zatch Bell").
It's quite useless to discuss piracy since most people won't change anyway.
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Old 2004-06-29, 05:42   Link #11
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyEd
As for the issue at hand....whatever, it's just a mirror site so they won't face any legal actions. I said it before and i shall say it again, licensees should concentrate their efforts into delivering a good product instead of going after any pirate out there. It is quite obvious that piracy can't be stopped, which is a sad thing, but true nonetheless.
But if they would give their releases a little more effort, there would be more people buying their stuff..believe it or not, there are actually quite a lot of people who WANT to buy quality dvd releases...it's just that "quality" is a rare thing nowadays..just look at the recent prospects for future releases (this is the point where i will elegantly throw in the atrocity called "Zatch Bell").
It's quite useless to discuss piracy since most people won't change anyway.
I don't entirely agree, you can't take down piracy completely, but that doesn't mean you should everyone roam free. They should go for the most obvious pirates, the ones that are really hurting sales, I'm talking about the Hong Kong DVD rippers and bootleggers.

And at the same time lower their own prices a bit, smaller difference between bootlegger prices and original copies will mean more sales for the licensing company. Also many people will buy more just because of the lower price (I know i would).
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Old 2004-06-29, 06:09   Link #12
dreamless
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heh, I'd love to see ADV try sue someone in Comoro Islands, or maybe they can hire some CIA agents to blow up the server in Comoro Islands? but that'd be a terrorist attack

and before they go after the HK bootleggers, they should make their DVD release more widely available outside of America.
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Old 2004-06-29, 06:21   Link #13
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyEd
As for the issue at hand....whatever, it's just a mirror site so they won't face any legal actions. I said it before and i shall say it again, licensees should concentrate their efforts into delivering a good product instead of going after any pirate out there. It is quite obvious that piracy can't be stopped, which is a sad thing, but true nonetheless.
There're going to be people who do nothing but steal regardless of how good a product is. It's anyone's guess/idea/belief on the relationship (direct, inverse, etc.) between quality versus the amount of theft. How is one supposed to determine it anyway? Trust people to tell the truth when asked in a survey?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
they should make their DVD release more widely available outside of America.
ADV isn't responsible for anywhere outside of R1, but I'll leave confirmation to AvatarADV. If no one from outside of the region is interested in buying the rights to the title, though, not much one can do aside from importing the discs from somewhere else really.

Or steal the stuff from somewhere.
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Old 2004-06-29, 06:58   Link #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
heh, I'd love to see ADV try sue someone in Comoro Islands, or maybe they can hire some CIA agents to blow up the server in Comoro Islands? but that'd be a terrorist attack
I find a little thing amusing in this little story, let's make a little comparison of two practicies :

1 - Setting up a web server in a country where you can evade copyright laws to avoid paying copyright taxes.

2 - Setting up a bank account in a country where you can evade normal tax laws to avoid paying your taxes like a normal citizen.

I find it funny to see that number "1" is being considered as a depictable and highly illegal action by the very people who are doing number "2" (i.e. the CEO of big media compagnies)....
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Old 2004-06-29, 07:41   Link #15
wao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
heh, I'd love to see ADV try sue someone in Comoro Islands, or maybe they can hire some CIA agents to blow up the server in Comoro Islands? but that'd be a terrorist attack

and before they go after the HK bootleggers, they should make their DVD release more widely available outside of America.
I would somewhat tend to agree with your last statement, while there are a number of titles that are available in Singapore for example, classics like Cowboy Bebop, ghibli movies, Vandread etc., can be found at pretty affordable prices (and in the more popular + cheaper format of VCD), however it is significantly harder to find other legally R3-licensed anime out there...

I personally think it's a bit unreasonable to expect R3 customers to also not download any anime because getting R1 anime needs you to not only pay the not-thaaat-cheap prices (in a more expensive currency too, US$: Sing$ is 1.7:1, I think), but also import it (which is also costly considering Singapore's rather far too), and then to buy a Region 1/0 DVD player from somewhere which might not be legal (There's a reason why there are regions...).

Then again, you can't really put up a site for R3 viewers only because sites can't really filter R3 and non R3 visitors... so even if it affects us, they still gotta close the site down... how do I explain it...

I am also of the opinion that no matter what anyone says about piracy, if people have a will they have a way and there's always the will to get things as cheap as possible... I don't know whether all the efforts people take to convince others about their illegal attitude, are in vain... and some just end up looking like self-righteous puffballs....
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Old 2004-06-29, 08:19   Link #16
LynnieS
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baba
I find a little thing amusing in this little story, let's make a little comparison of two practicies :

1 - Setting up a web server in a country where you can evade copyright laws to avoid paying copyright taxes.

2 - Setting up a bank account in a country where you can evade normal tax laws to avoid paying your taxes like a normal citizen.

I find it funny to see that number "1" is being considered as a depictable and highly illegal action by the very people who are doing number "2" (i.e. the CEO of big media compagnies)....
Actually, normal people try this sort of crap also; doctors, lawyers, etc. for any number of reasons they thought to be worthwhile, and not just from companies making their headquarters, for example, in Bermuda where taxes are terribly low. Both are rather despictable, IMHO, - to me, they're just excuses - but in the end, it's up to the legal system to deal with them really - either through audits, lawsuits, trials, etc. or by closing the loopholes and dealing with the special interests the same way the average citizen is being dealt and vice versa.

I just don't like to call something by a better name. But then, I'm just plain weird.
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Old 2004-06-29, 08:44   Link #17
TechnoMage
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Is it just me, or did they seem to forget something important here?

Even if their site was made for people of the Comoro Islands, the server the actual site is running from is located in Hungary (RIPE's or NetworkSolution's Whois are enough to show this) , which has signed the Berne Convention, and is a member of WIPO. As such, the server falls under all of those international copyright laws.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wao
Then again, you can't really put up a site for R3 viewers only because sites can't really filter R3 and non R3 visitors... so even if it affects us, they still gotta close the site down... how do I explain it...
Actually, I remember there being an online store site for the USA, which you couldn't even browse what they sold unless you had an IP from the USA (Me being from Canada, only got a page saying I couldn't access it ) Some download sites (mySQL's site, for exampls) take your IP and actually display their mirror page accordingly: Mirrors from your country on the top, so you can easily select servers that (should) provide the fastest speed to you. In other words, it is 100% possible to have a site open up only to certain regions.

***

Now, on to my opinion on the whole issue. ADV (and like companies) should really focus their attention on the people who distribute, and 'make' (Fansub, burn/press Bootleg DVDs/VCDs, rip DVDs, etc.) these. By targetting this group of people, not only do you minimize the proliferation of these copyright infringing releases at the source, such release listing sites will not have any infringing material to list. It's the classic 'killing 2 birds with one stone'

Just my two cents.
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Old 2004-06-29, 08:51   Link #18
_Sin_
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechnoMage
Actually, I remember there being an online store site for the USA, which you couldn't even browse what they sold unless you had an IP from the USA (Me being from Canada, only got a page saying I couldn't access it ) Some download sites (mySQL's site, for exampls) take your IP and actually display their mirror page accordingly: Mirrors from your country on the top, so you can easily select servers that (should) provide the fastest speed to you. In other words, it is 100% possible to have a site open up only to certain regions.
Solution: Use a proxy from the US. It's as easy as that
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Old 2004-06-29, 09:13   Link #19
boneyjellyfish
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyEd
Nyahahaa...looks like you just invented an already existing german word....and since there are underaged people roaming around this thread i cannot fully describe its meaning..or lets say i could describe it, but there are some prudish guidelines around here, which i want to tolerate for now.
That's pretty funny, because I had no idea it was a german word when I thought of it. I r teh smrt!
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Old 2004-06-29, 09:48   Link #20
wao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TechnoMage
Actually, I remember there being an online store site for the USA, which you couldn't even browse what they sold unless you had an IP from the USA (Me being from Canada, only got a page saying I couldn't access it ) Some download sites (mySQL's site, for exampls) take your IP and actually display their mirror page accordingly: Mirrors from your country on the top, so you can easily select servers that (should) provide the fastest speed to you. In other words, it is 100% possible to have a site open up only to certain regions.
That's true.... I'm still pretty n00b at all of this, but even though that is reassuring, unfortunately I have yet to see a download site for anime that is meant for R3 people. It's really a pity...

It would be nice if there were more companies to bring over other anime titles (I'd love to see Princess Tutu, Gunslinger Girls, Kodomo no Omocha and such things), advertise them appropriately and release them at appropriate prices (VCD is also a more popular format here so selling them as VCDs is one option). Or at least to see current companies doing more... like Odex... oi

And it would really make me very happy if more quality anime shows made it to Singapore TV. AXN-Asia used to have a small pool of good anime shows, which they began repeating a lot, and now they've cut down their anime times to 1 hour per day compared to 2 earlier, and they're going through the Ranma series for like, the 3rd time I think. (Definitely not the first.) And weekends there's like 1 hour (I think) each of Sakura Wars TV (Sat) and Galaxy Angels (Sun) [Oh, and only the first season.] WHICH they have repeated again and again. And the infamous Animax-Asia thing which I constantly whine about where the HQ is in Singapore but the channel is not broadcast here at all. GODDAMNIT.

Having successfully gone completely offtopic and delving into my own selfish, personal and longwinded problems, I shall hopefully retreat from this topic because R1 licenses don't bring any benefits to me and boneyjellyfish, smrt stands for Singapore Mass Rapid Transit!
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