AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Games

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2004-07-11, 11:17   Link #21
Krevnik
Kryptic Kynic
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In De Nile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remian
Since you guys are very law illeterat, let me put this in one simple sentence.


YOU CANT PUBLISH/POST FOR DOWNLOAD/ADVERTISE FAN BASED GAME

jeez close this thread NOW.
Illiterate is the word I think you are looking for. While a company does have exclusive rights to 'prepare derivative works', the fair use clause does override this. The intent, commercial/non-commercial nature, nature of the copyrighted work, and how much of the work was used. In this situation, there is enough precedent floating around, especially in the anime industry to refute your claims.

Let me ask you a couple questions, and let's see if you address them. My hope is that you will, instead of repeating your claim that you don't back up with evidence. Anyways, here are the questions:

1) Do you watch anime music videos, browse fan art, or watch fan subs?
2) If you answered yes, what is your reasoning for considering it legal? If no, what is your reasoning for considering it illegal?

Now, I will answer the questions myself and state why I say what I do...

I do all 3, and I could wager good money that most of the people on this forum do. Why? Because it is interesting to see the interpretation of the works' meaning through the eyes of other viewers.

Fan art is considered fair use through precedent and lack of enforcement. It copies a very small portion of the work and is usually re-interpreted in a different manner. The fact that it is non-profit that cannot hurt (can only help) the copyright owner's business also helps the legality. However, companies haven't pressed those who are doing works for commission at conventions, which would hurt them in the future if they did suddenly decide to press it.

Anime music videos have been around long enough and unchallenged that it would be nearly impossible for anyone to put the genie back in the bottle. While the reproduction of the music is questionable, and the public showing of them dubious at best (as companies have been challenging this, but not the making of), it hasn't been tested in court because the industry hasn't been willing to test the waters and see which way court precedent would go, although it would likely be not in favor of the copyright holders, but could possibly be shut down due to the music content (which oddly hasn't been challenged by the RIAA, making their case against it difficult).

Even fan subs are on shaky legal ground but get away with it because of the problem of enforcing a Japanese copyright within the US (especially since I don't think Japan ratified the international copyright treaty, last time I checked). Few companies have the reach and ability to enforce those copyrights (and those that do, announce it shortly after the series first airs). If Japan were to ratify the international copyright treaty and actively persue their copyrights, fan subs are dead in the water, legally. Until then, you can enjoy your fan subs.

So, the reason why I see fan games as being legal is the scope of copying done, and while it is most certainly Beebop inspired, doesn't mean it carries the Beebop name or even character names. So far, the game mechanics are geared to be a general bounty hunting game, and character names aren't even being used because I wanted an extendible game as well. Makes it difficult to show that my intent is to hurt the sales of Beebop merchandising. The full intent of *THIS PROJECT* is to make a game, post it as a fan-made card game, and *LEAVE IT THAT WAY*. This project is not intended for profit and never will be, and not to be confused with other games I have in the pipeline.

Anything else, or can I get on with it?

EDIT: Oh, and let's try to keep the people-bashing to a minimum. Attack ideas and claims, but not people, that goes for people on both sides of this debate. I don't mind the complaints about the legality, which I have no problem addressing before I start posting game material.

ADDITIONAL ADDITIONAL: Okay, I do stand corrected on one point, Japan has signed on with Berne Convention, and thus can protect copyright here. But my other point remains that it is difficult to extend reach (as the company still has to file here in the US). Each country is expected to have their own compliant set of copyright laws which are used for dealing with what is infringing or not in that country, so US copyright still applies in this case.

Last edited by Krevnik; 2004-07-11 at 11:58.
Krevnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-07-20, 13:28   Link #22
Krevnik
Kryptic Kynic
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In De Nile
Woah, I missed some problem posts. Let's see if we can salvage this as best we can and move it forward. A status update has been posted, and as always is in the first post for new readers to see the current status. The rules draft has been posted, and I have decided to keep it a little more generic (but heavily anime-inspired), and not use any character names or series titles. This helps avoid infringing on trademarks companies might have, which are (I think) a more severe problem than the copyright issue at the moment.

In any case, I am attempting to find some middle ground, and to help get people involved, I am looking for people to help create card art. People who can draw in an 'Anime' style or can use 3D to create vehicles/items/etc and interested in helping get themselves out there as 'Hey, I helped with this project, you can go here and see the work done for it by me,' please let me know in PM or post here (preferably). More artists means the final product is finished faster, and more people can benefit.

So check the link on the first post, get up to speed on the rules, and post comments/suggestions/questions/edits to the rules, and post if you are interested in contributing art. (If you feel you need to protect your rights for the art, we can get something simple done and signed which will provide documentation of the terms of the art's use)
Krevnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-07-30, 09:01   Link #23
Remian
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wouldnt YOU like to know
When some anime maker puts you in jail, i will personally visit your cell and have good laugh.

Your ideas are awesome, but you need something ORIGINAL
something that hasent been copyrighted time and time again!!!
__________________
If in the end we are going to die, what is the point of pursuing life?
If Life is a road with multiple paths, but in the end all paths lead to the same door, what is the point of travelling that path anyway?


Maybe the meaning of Life is to prevent others from walking that path, but still help them to reach the door.
If that is so, then good is bad and bad is bad........


A mystery in which the ANSWER is given, and the question is not.......
Remian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-07-30, 19:16   Link #24
Krevnik
Kryptic Kynic
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In De Nile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remian
When some anime maker puts you in jail, i will personally visit your cell and have good laugh.

Your ideas are awesome, but you need something ORIGINAL
something that hasent been copyrighted time and time again!!!
Yeah, when that happens, we can both have a good laugh at the expense of the 'anime maker'. As copyright infringement is a civil offense, not criminal, and cannot carry jail time, just large fines.

And excuse me? I posted up a set of rules about a game, which is about galactic bounty hunting. Sorry, but I haven't seen any other card games about galactic bounty hunting, so there isn't anything infringing within the game at this point. To be blunt, at first I tolerated your critism, because the game was in a grey area. Now it isn't anymore, and unless you can prove what/how it infringes on a copyright, you are starting to enter the realm of trolling and flamebait. I suggest you calm down a little and at the very least hold your tongue until you find something that can be proven to infringe on copyright.

And hey, the name of the game in creativity is reinterpreting what you experience, and gaining inspiration from other sources. That includes movies, etc which are protected by copyright, as long as the person is not /copying/ the material (hence the term copyright).
Krevnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-07-31, 21:48   Link #25
Remian
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wouldnt YOU like to know
Um...Mr Krevnic..

Please accept my appologies about this argument.
Im sorry for hassling you about legal issues. To make it up to you....
I happened to see the maker of CoyBoy Beebop at the local anime convection in Jap. I told him about this thread and your rules for the game. He says when he gets more money (he just made a CoyBoy Bebop video game) hge will look into it.

You should creat your own gaming company or at least sell your ideas to Wizards of The Coast.

Sorry Krevnic for all the trouble i have given you. please forgive me....
__________________
If in the end we are going to die, what is the point of pursuing life?
If Life is a road with multiple paths, but in the end all paths lead to the same door, what is the point of travelling that path anyway?


Maybe the meaning of Life is to prevent others from walking that path, but still help them to reach the door.
If that is so, then good is bad and bad is bad........


A mystery in which the ANSWER is given, and the question is not.......
Remian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-01, 00:31   Link #26
Krevnik
Kryptic Kynic
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In De Nile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remian
Um...Mr Krevnic..

Please accept my appologies about this argument.
Im sorry for hassling you about legal issues. To make it up to you....
I happened to see the maker of CoyBoy Beebop at the local anime convection in Jap. I told him about this thread and your rules for the game. He says when he gets more money (he just made a CoyBoy Bebop video game) hge will look into it.

You should creat your own gaming company or at least sell your ideas to Wizards of The Coast.

Sorry Krevnic for all the trouble i have given you. please forgive me....
Okay, two things:
1) The spelling of my alias is on every post I make, so it shouldn't be too difficult to spell it correctly. (I am a stickler on this)
2) As you should notice, the rules, while most definitely inspired by things like Outlaw Star and Cowboy Bebop, isn't a game based in the series anymore. Hence, why it cannot be considered infringing anymore. Once I get one of the decks done, it should become more clear.

While I do appreciate the attempt to make it up, probably the wrong way to go about doing it. This project is going to be a contribution to the community, and should remain that way. I don't intend to ever consider selling it to a publisher of any kind, licensing it out, etc... I have other projects designed for that.
Krevnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-01, 08:55   Link #27
Remian
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Wouldnt YOU like to know
But you SHOULD sell it.

You would make good money out of it and you would become sorta famous.....

The problem is, i think your games are so different, that they will only be shunned like the DragonBall Z cardgame.


I think you should make a Board game and not a card game.

When you make a card game people look at it and say "Hey look, its another Yu-Gi-Oh thing")

but board games get a lot mor respect. try it.
__________________
If in the end we are going to die, what is the point of pursuing life?
If Life is a road with multiple paths, but in the end all paths lead to the same door, what is the point of travelling that path anyway?


Maybe the meaning of Life is to prevent others from walking that path, but still help them to reach the door.
If that is so, then good is bad and bad is bad........


A mystery in which the ANSWER is given, and the question is not.......
Remian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-01, 16:47   Link #28
spedz_fx
Begin Activation!
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: good question
Age: 28
Send a message via MSN to spedz_fx
sure i'll help some swift 3ed (cell shaded style that is) won't kill any if u want it that is?
__________________
Indecision is the basis of flexibility!
spedz_fx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2004-08-03, 15:37   Link #29
Krevnik
Kryptic Kynic
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: In De Nile
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remian
But you SHOULD sell it.

You would make good money out of it and you would become sorta famous.....
I have said before, I have other projects for that. You can't sell all of them to a publisher, and I am betting that this is one of them (I may be wrong, but that is my choice). Plus, I am asking for people to contribute their art for use on cards. To take it and sell it after they willing give art to it is just in flat out bad taste, and I don't feel up to the task of dealing with the legal issues behind selling a game with other people's art, selling a prototype to a company is much easier for someone like myself to handle at the moment.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remian
The problem is, i think your games are so different, that they will only be shunned like the DragonBall Z cardgame.

I think you should make a Board game and not a card game.

When you make a card game people look at it and say "Hey look, its another Yu-Gi-Oh thing")

but board games get a lot mor respect. try it.
Hmm, well... considering this isn't a CCG (I hate designing those, they are far too much work for an amateur designer like myself to get off the ground for a product that will likely crash and burn), that isn't entirely true. Ever look around at some of the Steve Jackson games like Chez Geek or Munchkin? They get quite a lot of respect, but the thing is, they are aimed at different markets. Board games get a lot of respect from older generations currently, thanks to the CCG fad. However, that isn't who I design games for, I design games for people willing to try different things. These are card games you get once, open up and have everything you need play in the package. Those are the ones that are worth making as you can do things a little more outside the box (and are encouraged because of the lack of a board).

Quote:
Originally Posted by spedz_fx
sure i'll help some swift 3ed (cell shaded style that is) won't kill any if u want it that is?
Hmm, post a sample or two, as that sounds very promising. We can discuss details while I start the private playtest to kill the largest problems. The majority of what you would be asked to provide are probably mugshot images, so I don't need time spent on many full-body models.
Krevnik is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 00:00.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.