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Old 2004-07-07, 05:05   Link #61
_Sin_
Member of the Year 2004!
 
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Location: "And if thou doest not well, _Sin_ lieth at the door."- Genesis 4:7
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdiesel12
send the american govt some money to put into our public school systems and then well do that .in all seriousness america overall doesnt have high taxes such as other countires do
Just out of curiosity: How much is your VAT? And how many languages do you learn/have to learn in American schools? No offense but we had two people in our class that went to America for one year to study there and because they are/were were addicted to anything American (who knows why ). When they came back, one had to repeat the class and one could barely make it. They said that the school niveau "over there" was not as high as here (humanistic grammar school). *Could that be true or did they just slack off? I'm asking that because that's what they said and I wanted to know if that was true.* I know there are differences for each school but what's the tendecy or the average niveau respectively? Just a note for the people who want to jump on my throat, read the part marked with * again. Still angry? Read it again s l o w l y

Side note: What about history of foreign countries? Do you learn "enough" or is it more focused on American history?
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Old 2004-07-07, 05:28   Link #62
Shadowlord
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it is widely known that North American (America/Canada) acemdemics are not as great as asian, europeans. In asia (not all countries) and europe, a higher standard of acedemics exist. I live in Canada, I am in grade 12 now (yeah, 1 more year! ) If I were to got to school in europe, My knowledge level would be that of around grade 9-10, as would be the case if i went to a country in asia such as Japan. more resources and intelligence is devoted to education, and also more pressure is put on students there than here (NAmerica) Also, the cultural ideals are more gauged towards high intelligence and success. A comman stereotypre that mostly holds true is that asians are more intelligent, and people expect more from them. These expectations are what drives them for the need of harder education systems than that of NAmerica, and the pressure from the nation, parents, teachers, makes them feel obligated to do better. This pressure put on them is why, when you look at countries with high educational standards, you will often find a higher rate of suicides. I can't speak for asians, europeans because I live in Canada, but from what I see, they are proud of their educational rank and therfore, whether they admit it or not, are proud. (im not saying everyone feels this way, but a good portiion)

I may havenot specified what I mean that clearly on some points, as I have soo many thoughts it it often difficult to express them all in a fashion that makes total sense, so I will apologise now incase you missunderstand what i'm saying, or don't quite get what i'm trying to convey.
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Old 2004-07-07, 06:56   Link #63
_Sin_
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Yes, I get what you meant, but isn't if funny that the US has some of the most renowned/famous universities? What's the point in having such big discrepancy between "normal" schools and universities? Is it only the money parents spent for their children to send them to the universities that makes the difference? Why not vote a president who will invest money into education (if that's not what's happening now anyway)? I think a good education is the key for lower criminality rates, unemployment rates etc etc.
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Old 2004-07-07, 08:42   Link #64
NinjaServ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sin_
English is my second language. I learned it for 8 years now and I'm pretty confident in grammar etc. I consider myself in the last phase of learning it: Picking up new vocabulary and sayings that you won't learn in school. (Even (young) native speakers are in this phase, I guess)
I.e. I did not know what "to cry wolf" meant at first, but one quick glance in an Online Dictionary (German<->English) and I got it for future discussion. English is not that hard if you developed a certain "feeling" for it like everybody does when learning a foreign language after some time.
well, if you take into consideration UNDERSTANDING, then yes english is easy to learn, you can fuck up a sentance and we who speak english can get a general idea, that is ONE good thing about the language, but as for GRAMMER, most ppl (even native speakers) don't ever get it all down, but it is HARDER for the grammer for ppl whom it is not their first language. GRAMMER and WORD USEAGE has to be the hardest thing about english tho...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadowlord
it is widely known that North American (America/Canada) acemdemics are not as great as asian, europeans. In asia (not all countries) and europe, a higher standard of acedemics exist. I live in Canada, I am in grade 12 now (yeah, 1 more year! ) If I were to got to school in europe, My knowledge level would be that of around grade 9-10, as would be the case if i went to a country in asia such as Japan. more resources and intelligence is devoted to education, and also more pressure is put on students there than here (NAmerica) Also, the cultural ideals are more gauged towards high intelligence and success. A comman stereotypre that mostly holds true is that asians are more intelligent, and people expect more from them. These expectations are what drives them for the need of harder education systems than that of NAmerica, and the pressure from the nation, parents, teachers, makes them feel obligated to do better. This pressure put on them is why, when you look at countries with high educational standards, you will often find a higher rate of suicides. I can't speak for asians, europeans because I live in Canada, but from what I see, they are proud of their educational rank and therfore, whether they admit it or not, are proud. (im not saying everyone feels this way, but a good portiion)

I may havenot specified what I mean that clearly on some points, as I have soo many thoughts it it often difficult to express them all in a fashion that makes total sense, so I will apologise now incase you missunderstand what i'm saying, or don't quite get what i'm trying to convey.
That depends on where you live and what classes you take. Most ppl in ADVANCED classes are like WAY AHEAD of the STANDARD classes (which I was in, LOL!!!). There are a LOT of factors to consider there, but if that was a "statistic" from somewhere, they are compairing GENERAL education and not advanced education and such. But yea...i'm a general idiot
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Old 2004-07-07, 08:50   Link #65
Shadowlord
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This doesn't refer to those who are in AP (advanced placement) classes. I am in AP English, Lit, History, and they are comparable any countries worldwide. LOL, kind of sad that only the few that are in AP courses can keep up with Japan and Europe.
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Old 2004-07-07, 10:21   Link #66
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sin_
Yes, I get what you meant, but isn't if funny that the US has some of the most renowned/famous universities? What's the point in having such big discrepancy between "normal" schools and universities? Is it only the money parents spent for their children to send them to the universities that makes the difference? Why not vote a president who will invest money into education (if that's not what's happening now anyway)? I think a good education is the key for lower criminality rates, unemployment rates etc etc.
Our regional government (who is in charge of most things around here) invests 45 - 50 % of all her money into education! This doesn't mean universities only but alot of money is pumped into education for adults, high schools, technical schools as well. Especially the reschooling of unemployed people (in essence giving them an entirely new education into a different job) is strongly favored these days.

We strongly believe that people who have a decent education, be it a university degree or a decent education to become a trucker or some kinda craftsman, will find jobs more easilly. And it seems to work, people who didn't drop out of school without a diploma (we are obliged to go to school upto the age of 18 ) find jobs alot faster than others. Also people with a decent job and a decent pay won't fall into the trap of crime as fast.

Our governments view (and greatly my own) = give people a good education, this increases the chance to a good job, which lowers crime and other social problems.
Therefore, basic schools and high schools are more or less free, adult educations can get most or even all of the costs refunded by the government if the course is completed succesfully. Also scholarships are available for everyone, your grades don't matter. Everyone who isn't considered wealthy enough (and that means practically everyone in our country) gets a scholarship for university. All they ask you is to work hard and pass the exams.

I always thought school sucked but it is still the best guarantee for people to get a job and build up a decent life without too many money problems.
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Old 2004-07-07, 10:35   Link #67
Rhia
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I dunno if this has been read as i havent read many of the replies but i think its an easy language to learn once youve started, its just like learning french of german to me, but people assume its hard because it has no comparison to english( sounds TOTALLY different)
Thats what i think...
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Old 2004-07-07, 10:45   Link #68
_Sin_
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Location: "And if thou doest not well, _Sin_ lieth at the door."- Genesis 4:7
Age: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaServ
well, if you take into consideration UNDERSTANDING, then yes english is easy to learn, you can fuck up a sentance and we who speak english can get a general idea, that is ONE good thing about the language, but as for GRAMMER, most ppl (even native speakers) don't ever get it all down, but it is HARDER for the grammer for ppl whom it is not their first language. GRAMMER and WORD USEAGE has to be the hardest thing about english tho...
I don't know if you did this one purpose but you know that you spelt grammar wrong? (Normally I don't nit-pick but we are talking about English skills here ^_^ Sorry, I won't do it again, I promise )
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Old 2004-07-07, 13:19   Link #69
NinjaServ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Sin_
I don't know if you did this one purpose but you know that you spelt grammar wrong? (Normally I don't nit-pick but we are talking about English skills here ^_^ Sorry, I won't do it again, I promise )
how about you go fuck yourself.....
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Old 2004-07-07, 20:36   Link #70
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NinjaServ
how about you go fuck yourself.....
LMAO nice way to represent America.

Anyway, yes, every politican claims to be "for education". I can't possibly think of any reason why any candidate would be publicly "anti-education"...

My high school minimum requirements (they've changed since I've been gone):

4 years of English
2 years of Math
1 year of foreign language
1 year of biology, and 1 year of chemistry or physics
um...
1 year of American history
½ year of American democracy, ½ year of economics
2 years of physical education (though very little education was involved)
½ year of Health Education (learning about drugs, STD's, pregnancy)
hm..there's probably more but I can't remember them offhand.

I honestly don't know why American universities might be seen as better than universities in other first-world countries. Then again, I never looked into studying overseas, and Americans are notoriously underinformed about anything not American...
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Old 2004-07-08, 06:07   Link #71
NinjaServ
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I try...I try....GO AMERICA!!!
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Old 2004-07-08, 06:20   Link #72
SajberToent
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Hmm.. Woah - this thread sure has strayed of from the topic..

Anyways, there's no way to measure the 'greatness' of cultures - each culture is unique and may not suit everyones' tastes, accept that or you can do what Ninjaserved suggested -

" go fuck yourself....." =)
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Old 2004-07-08, 19:09   Link #73
NinjaServ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SajberToent
Hmm.. Woah - this thread sure has strayed of from the topic..

Anyways, there's no way to measure the 'greatness' of cultures - each culture is unique and may not suit everyones' tastes, accept that or you can do what Ninjaserved suggested -

" go fuck yourself....." =)
LMFAO!!! AMEN BROTHA!!! PREACH IT!!!
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Old 2004-07-08, 19:32   Link #74
Dragon_Lord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cdiesel12
send the american govt some money to put into our public school systems and then well do that .in all seriousness america overall doesnt have high taxes such as other countires do
we may not have as high of taxes but you must understand that taxes were only places to get the country back on its feet but it then became a thing the gov became attached too and thus we are still a young nation and if we raise taxes your screw up economic growth and then people revolt against the gov and then the us is now a wastland... back to reality lol enjoy low taxes im sure they will not last for long i dont think anyway lets hope for the best and if you think about it are our tax dollars really going towards good causes Highly doubtfull cbecause you know that all the gov gets paid a hella lot andthey are all very comfortable as well as very into spending what they dont have lol anyway not a good topic to get into

At least WE have Freedom And we can be Proud Of that


and to the schooling thing if i had the money i would hit every college up and experience everything from usa to where ever going overseas means a hella lot of money and for the most part you have to be a lot smarter lol because on average im sure americans arent at the top of the brain tree not saying we are dumb just saying we could try harder (not calling us lazy either) but we are smug and comfortable because of our situations
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Old 2004-07-08, 22:11   Link #75
Kyolux
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Higher taxes means cheaper services.. I don't have to ruin myself to see a doctor. But that's way off-topic ya know?

I have a question related to the said topic. I want to take japanese private classes (non available in my college) and I was wondering if I was better off learning japanese from my birth language wich is french, or from english wich I'm just getting good at, though It'll never be perfect itself. So from the start, wich language is better between these two to learn japanese no matter what language I'm good at? 'Cause I know of a place that teach it but from english to japanese. (I'm just by the side of Ottawa, yet I'm in Quebec.) And I don't know of any places that teach japanese in french.
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Old 2004-07-09, 09:22   Link #76
Pitar
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I would like to go back to the original topic of the thread here.

Japanese is a SOV structure based language and I just started learning it. It is hard but mostly because most people are locked into their SVO and that kanji works differently from any European language writing.

(Little Background)
I'm a native Russian, I was born there and learned the language up to 7th grade level (last year that you actually learn any grammar). I had English taught there for 4 years in a row that resulted in maybe 30-50 word vocabulary and me hating grammar in English due to a set sentence structure.
I moved to U.S. and picked up the language in 3-4 months where I was on par with the rest of the people my age. Currently I'm taking French here in High School and it is taught by far better than English was taught back in Russia. It also has moments where SOV structure applies to it and it makes it confusing sometimes.
Eventhought my first language is considered quite hard because it has a situational structure to it sentences. I.E. "I'm going outside" can be said "outside going" and have same meaning but with other phrases it might not be the same. Sentences can lack verbs,subjects, objects or have adjectives and adverbs replace such. But key is to get a feel for it.
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Old 2004-07-09, 11:30   Link #77
TronDD
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You know, if Russian had a set sentence structure, you could eliminate about 9/10 of the grammar.
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Old 2004-07-09, 16:09   Link #78
abubo
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my two cents

What's the most difficult to learn? I think it all depends on where you're coming from, and which part of the language you're talking about.

Grammatically, several friends who has either taken it or has a linguistic degree told me that formal Russian grammar is one of, if not the, hardest in the world. They even told me how the old Czars made Russian intentionally hard to give it more cultured feel (when compared to other continental languages).. not sure if that's true. On the other hand, Chinese has an extremely simple grammar structure... there are no verbal or adjectival conjugations based on number or gender, and the tense is expressed by adding adverbs, not changing the verb itself. You can stack adverbs and qualifiers anywhere, and there's not even a hard set SVO rule. If you look at how native Chinese speakers studies Chinese, you won't find a grammar book. Most studies are focused on learning new kanji character.

If you're talking about writing system, Arabic is probably the hardest alphabetical language to learn (Russian is right there too). Chinese character's very difficult to learn since it's not based on sound or alphabets. Japanese writing system is actually quite easy to learn; there's only 50 kana really, but it was overtly complicated by the massive introduction of kanji into the language and the two versions of invented kana. I personally felt that Japanese could probably have benefited from an alphabetical system of writing, but they would loose the added meaning and dimension kanji uniquely provides.

As for spoken language, I'm not quite sure about that. There's plenty of languages without a written counter part which could be difficult for anyone not speaking it. I can comment on pronounciation a bit... I think Japanese sounds are fairly easy to form (not that it would mean anything), but mandarin Chinese has a lot of sounds that's very difficult for non-native speaker to pronounce. I've also heard that Russian sounds are one of the hardest to produce, but I'm sure that this is probably easily disputed.

I'd probably agree that Chinese is the most difficult writing system to learn in the world. A normally proficient person needs to know 2,000 to 3,000 kanji, and more if you're better educated. I've had a dictionary created by the Emperor Kangxi which contained over 20,000 characters (I'm the only person I know who knew the Chinese character with the most stroke count . However, you have to put it in perspective... Chinese is OLD, on par with Egyptian hieroglphics and Sumerian cuneiforms (archeological records indicated that Chinese is probably older than both). No other ancient language is in such common use today. An average Chinese person can mostly understand a document written almost 3,000 years ago, without translations. I was often amazed how I was able to read and understand NATIVELY a Buddhist sutra written in the Tang Dynasty... that's almost 1,500 years ago! When something is this old, you will find that it has a lot of unique qualities which no longer exist in the world dominated by Indo-European languages. Yes it is difficult if you're not native Japanese or Chinese, but in Kanji you'll also find beauty, nuances, and dimensions not find in any other written language as well.
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Old 2004-07-09, 18:16   Link #79
kj1980
kaii~...kana? kana?
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abubo
I'm the only person I know who knew the Chinese character with the most stroke count .
To my knowledge, I think it is writing the letter for "dragon" four times.

However, there was one person registered in our census back in the 1950s who had the name "Taito" which was written as: (one word)
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Old 2004-07-09, 18:43   Link #80
GipFace
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English is the hardest. No, really.

As for spoken language, I'm not quite sure about that.

Funny how most people underestimate English in terms of difficulty. "ough" has at least seven different pronounciations: through, bough, although, rough, trough, thought, and drought.

How about the "ay" sound combination? They, hay, straight, strait, eight, Aegean, plate, Satan ... whoops! The only way to master it is through sheer memorization.
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