(L) Otogizoushi

[Yebyosh]

Originally Posted by runpsicat

Huh? I never said onmyoudou was Buddhist. I said it's a mostly dead arcane art (which it is, since only hokey, self-designated psychics now draw upon it, and the government doesn't endorse it like it used to during the Heian period).

What I did say:

I also stipulated that all the hand-waving I did about the chant was based on our taking this site as face value. I for one have not made studying arcane arts my hobby, so I wouldn't know for myself whether this website is lying or not, hence the Buddhist in quotation marks.

Please read more carefully.

Originally Posted by runpsicat

(aside from that he was calling up the four guardians/gods and was referring to the relationship of enmity between the 5 elements... couldn't he have just said that instead of incorporating mystic Buddhist chants and who knows what else? T_T)

Originally Posted by runpsicat

Oh, a lot of it was pulled from a Mystic Buddhist chant, although unfortunately not in its entirety (that would've made things a lot easier):
http://homepage3.nifty.com/konghai/gotaikaji.htm

Those quotes of yours seem to reflect that your impression of Onmyoudou is from Buddhism. If as you say, it was not your intent, then I do not think I was the only that thought it was otherwise at the start ( refers to the previous posts )

In any event, I was only attempting to clear things up

Originally Posted by rupsicat

Also, I wish he did say "kyuu kyuu nyo ritsu ryou" since that one is easily searchable courtesy of Mr. Google, but he didn't say that one.

I initially thought that we were talking about episode 13, but on re-reading I gather you and dreamless were talking about your sub for episode 11. But even so, episode 11, 20:11, 急々如律令 was uttered, completing the whole incantation.

By the way I do agree somewhat that Seimei was taking phrases from other chants and mixing them up, since I believe the original scriptures would not contain an incantation for using fictional magatamas to destroy the world. The liberty of the anime studio so as to speak.

Originally Posted by rupsicat

For the fifth animal, I think it was the "Yellow Dragon" due to this chart (pale yellow row).

This was the issue I was most puzzled with In no Asian mythology have I heard of the 黄龍 being used with the 4 Guardian Beasts. 黄 龍 literally can be taken as "Yellow Dragon" or in context "Royal Dragon" and usually is used on its own. However I believe I have solved the issue ( or so I theorise ).

In the original Chinese mythos, the 4 cardinal Guardian Beasts stand around the Central Guardian Beast, the Golden Kirin, 金麒麟 . Now since all kanji for the Guardian Beasts were taken as is from the origin, why would they not take the kanji for kirin? The answer is that... 麒 麟 in Japanese means giraffe ( which is also the likely origin of kirin as the first Chinese to have seen a giraffe most likely thought he saw a mythical beast ).

As such, the Japanese found it would be weird to have Giraffe as their central Guardian and decided to replace it with a more auspicious sounding kanji. As the mythical kirin is supposed to have a head like a dragon, and that golden was the colour association, they took the nearest fitting mythical creature 黄龍.

http://www.h6.dion.ne.jp/~asano/onnmyouhaitou.htm shows the chart with Kirin (kanji).

Does my theory sound plausible?

Now the question is are they going to have 陰陽道 in the "Present" story arc?

[runpsicat]

Originally Posted by Yebyosh

Those quotes of yours seem to reflect that your impression of Onmyoudou is from Buddhism. If as you say, it was not your intent, then I do not think I was the only that thought it was otherwise at the start ( refers to the previous posts )

Nah, it = chant, not onmyoudou. My teary-faced complaint about him mixing in stuff was also referring to the chant. I was solely referring to the chant in that post and not how he practiced onmyoudou in general (not being an expert, I wouldn't have any idea if he is practicing "pure" onmyoudou or a bastardized one) .

To summarize:
-Onmyoudou = "dead" arcane art.
-Chant(s) used in episodes 11-13 = draws upon a Mystic Buddhist chant for whatever reason. I did some handwaving based on what Japanese religion is known for, and am quite happy to leave it there, choosing to redirect my free time to tling the neverending raws instead of ruminating over this issue that will never be resolved unless we interview the creators themselves (I did mention I have an inefficient brain in a previous post, right? I hope I didn't sound arrogant by saying that ).

The other non-phrase chant I was referring to was not the one at 20:11 but at 19:13 or so, and I believe I explained why I didn't bother hazarding a guess as to which kanji homonyms were being used in a non-phrasal chant. This is a personal decision based on personal experience, so I am not going to argue about its scholastic legitimacy since it's not intended to have one (mantra: I am not an expert in the oriental arcane arts). We'll probably find out what all of this exactly means in the DVD release since the professional translator will have the actual text with kanji characters and don't need to weigh the pros and cons of going ahead with a guessed translation instead of leaving it unsubbed since it's culturally "fine" not to get the exact meaning.

This was the issue I was most puzzled with In no Asian mythology have I heard of the ?? being used with the 4 Guardian Beasts. ? ? literally can be taken as "Yellow Dragon" or in context "Royal Dragon" and usually is used on its own. However I believe I have solved the issue ( or so I theorise ).

In the original Chinese mythos, the 4 cardinal Guardian Beasts stand around the Central Guardian Beast, the Golden Kirin, ??? . Now since all kanji for the Guardian Beasts were taken as is from the origin, why would they not take the kanji for kirin? The answer is that... ? ? in Japanese means giraffe ( which is also the likely origin of kirin as the first Chinese to have seen a giraffe most likely thought he saw a mythical beast ).

As such, the Japanese found it would be weird to have Giraffe as their central Guardian and decided to replace it with a more auspicious sounding kanji. As the mythical kirin is supposed to have a head like a dragon, and that golden was the colour association, they took the nearest fitting mythical creature ?[size=-1]?.

http://www.h6.dion.ne.jp/~asano/onnmyouhaitou.htm shows the chart with Kirin (kanji).

Does my theory sound plausible?

Golden dragon/kirin/giraffe/hippo/hamster, I personally don't really mind which one they used, since they didn't say what it was (i.e. I didn't have to translate/research that particular idea, which saves my inefficient brain's resources). It takes a certain leniency about factoids like that if you want to also not mind all the Engrish horrors, kind of like how we try not to think too hard about philosophy if we want to lead somewhat happy lives .

@ Sanninwa - I'll look into the upgrade, though knowing my work-induced forgetfulness, it'll be another month before I get to this simple process.

Runpsicat

[wao]

In other news, episode 14 has aired and I can't wait for the raw, but meanwhile, the preview on ntv's site is highly interesting =D

Firstly, what I saw of the animation for ep 15 was really good, the music was quite fitting (though I can't judge it all from juts that bit, but it had nice-sounding saxophone and stuff...), and while (if I'm nto wrong) Hikaru and all keep the same seiyuu, Hikaru sounded quite different from the Heian arc. I'd have thought it was a different person... Unless it's the new narrator?

The backgrounds are pretty good IMO...
Tsuna has huge muscles (O_O;;; )... and... likes tight shirts...
Hikaru, I confirm, is hot... seriously...
And Mansairaku-equivalent is a "fushigi na co-to no otoko" who looks rather gloomy

...Kou gokitai works pretty well, dammit...

[leslina]

Just saw the RAW for episode 14 and err, I don't know how to that spoiler cut thingy.

ghetto *spoiler cut*

*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*
*

I hear the new OP song and animation sequence. I like the bit where the characters are kareoking along with the theme and I like scruffy facial hair Tsuna and hot damn those arms and shoulders. I think the voice acting is great, Hikaru is a kick especially. She's got that modern day Tokyo teen attitude going, completely different from her more demure Heien period counterpart. Tsuna is fun to watch as well. I don't know what the heck is going on really, so I apologize for not describing the plot more, but there's with something with an old railroad yard, Raikou and Mansairaku.

[wao]

Yayzors! Ep 14, I finally watched it.

Short version: It was decent, I think Production I.G. won't screw it up after all. Great! New OP & ED which are nice, great show, great voice acting, really feels like Tokyo.

Long version:

Spoiler for not much of a spoiler, but juts in case:

w000000t!
Okay, where do I start.
New OP! I miss Zen, but this new OP is actually pretty funky. I love the part where they main characters are mouthing out the words of the song (it really fits) and the animation and, also, the various real-life shots of city scenes that have got nice effects on them The song itself is pretty good, too! I've been watching again and again.

The story I am not 100% sure about, but I know there's a lot to do with this mysterious train... At a particularly late time of the day the lights are cut and then this mysterious train that only Hikaru and some other people can see appears. And mysteriously, her mysterious brother Raikou who mysteriously disappeared 1 year ago, appears on it. We can see early on she's rather touchy about this issue... And the second time she sees it there's this mysterious GUY IN A COAT! (I bet you can guess who it is - pity though, he is only called "guy in a coat" even as a name in the ED credits. Too bad~~)

As for the characters, they seem to have generally kept their personalities the same though I have to say it, Hikaru is damned cute - and not in the sense of overly pathetically cute or intolerably cute, but... Her voice is really quite different from the Heian arc one though the voice actor is the same, it really brings across her character well. I really like the voice! And Tsuna sounds kind of odd - he's still got that really low voice. Everyone else sounds generally the same. Also, Hikaru looks great. ^_^ Some scenes she wasn't drawn too well but some scenes she looks awesome! I love it. Great job! Sadamitsu has some neat bling bling and Kintarou's clothes sure fit his kiddy style. And Urabe isn't as bad as I thoguht, she looks pretty neat from the back. Just a bit freaky... but well, not as freaky as in the preview screencaps I took. o.o

From what I can gather Hikaru seems like an ordinary high school girl, but also not like one because she seems pretty independant (her parents dead and all) and converses pretty easily with people older than her. Weak about certain touchy issues (Raikou), but also decisive (doesn't care about Tsuna being lazy and goes to the library herself to look up stuff), pretty agile (the "Tsuchigumo" scene in the beginning where she manages to do some pretty neat stuff, though she wasn't so good at climbing that fence to get to the abandoned train station).

Tsuna is slightly different. He's kinda lazy in some senses, but gosh does he have huge muscles. It's almost scary. BUt there was one scene where he looked pretty good. He looks kind of like an oji-san in a singlet though, it's so funny XD Faithfully loyal to Raikou but also a friend to Hikaru, like in the Heian arc.

Sadamitsu is carefree and cool as usual. I repeat, he has a lot of bling bling. And also... HE BARES HIS MIDRIFF. >_> Whatever. Well, he's got long hair too... and because this time it's no secret Hikaru's a girl, he, er, hits on her a bit It's obvious he's kinda kidding and she's not interested anyway, heh... and is really big-brother-like to Kintarou, it's pretty nice... He's got contacts though, I mean the living type, not the stuff you put in your eye or anything to do with physical touching... He knows this freaky old guy on the train who knows a bunch of stuff and helps Hikaru out. Yay!

Kintarou we don't see much of but he manages to help silly Hikaru to find some info on the trains, instead of her looking through loads of books, he uses the handy thing called an internet search engine :P

Urabe we don't see much of either, less than Kintarou, but she certainly exudes this professional yet... "hmm, okay o.o;;" sort of aura... mysterious, even. And yep, she correctly predicts that Hikaru would meet her elder brother

As for the mysterious coat guy, somehow I get the impression he's rather... sorrowful and withdrawn. ALl the better! And he definitely has some very mysterious connection to all the weird stuff going on...

The backgrounds were good, the music was fitting but not particularly amazing (it's not about the music anyway), and yep... that's about it...

The ED is not Be Your Girl or even Hoshi ni Negai wo, it's another song by CHieko Kawabe called Crybaby which is actually used as an insert song in the last part of ep 13. It's pretty fitting. There's another lovely pic by Tajima Shou (who drew the originial character designs and also drew the pic for the previous ED), it's definitely a good one. The ending is them showing different parts of hte pic at different times and then finally showing the whole pic - Mansaicoat in the left looking all angsty and Hikaru looking cute on the right and both leaning against this wall, and between them a painted Yin-Yang symbol. It's nice!

I will take screenshots as soon as I come back from having a bath. Waii!

As for episode 11, after finally acquiring a version that was, um, clarified with little words (cough), I realised watching the raws is really no way to enjoy the series :P I felt totally different after watching it again, hearing what they had to say. I did get a different impression of what was going on and so on...
I think after the exams I might sit down and think about the whole relationship going on and what it symbolizes and how it is reflected in the story. I'm sure there is a significance to how the

Spoiler for ep 11~13 a bit:

last magatama was fire (meaning it was the last thing to close up the circle and is thus "special"?) and it's the fire magatama that Hikaru dropped her flute on and got enveloped in, and it's the fire magatama that's left behind... and that it's the last in order in destruction and so on.
It makes sense, how the flip side of animosity is enmity and so on...

[jalana]

Originally Posted by runpsicat

I can at least think of one editor-ess who will be throwing things at her monitor whenever she sees Hikaru cozying up to Mansairaku... ^_^

Bah... I've never thrown things at my monitor. I prefer verbally abusing the translator.

As for ep 14 stuff...

Spoiler for little random stuff:

Hikaru's new "voice" in the modern arc actually reminds me of when she was acting as Hikaru in the Heian period. If you rewatch the episodes, it's obvious that when she's dressed as a girl, her voice is softer and a bit gentler. She reverts to the slightly lower and gruffer voice when she's Raikou.

Also, did anyone else think that Hikaru's pendant in this episode was originally a part of the magatama of fire?

[wao]

That's true, Hikaru in the Heian arc did have quite a different voice (it was almost creepy) but she's really taken on the role in the Tokyo arc.

Regarding that idea about somebody's pendant,... :O WTF? That might actually be true. One cannot rule those... things out forever. (you can see I am lazy to use spoiler tags)

Also, I shall re-state that I <3 about 80% of the OP - I love the song, I think it's awesome when they're singing and I love the red-and-transparent animations for Mansaicoato and Hikaru, I *OBSESS* over the part where they're walking past each other - it looks so realistic!! And so natural and yet so cool at the same time! *worships Production I.G.*

Ah, and in the new OP (as well as the ed)... what is with you know who and hiding behind the camera and looking away? Seriously, it gives him a completely new and different image (shy and reserved)... but that makes it more interesting! =D

[runpsicat]

For those of you who are interested, Jalana has made a really detailed post (complete with pictures!) about the relation of enmity/affinity that came up in episode 11. Thanks, Jalana... I didn't have the energy to do it ^^;.

And wow, episode 14 had a LOT of signs @_@. It's basically my neighborhood, too. Very strange. Somehow, the art seems to have taken a downturn... The music by Kenji Kawai feels like generic elevator music for the most part, too. We'll see, I guess. ^^

[BeNighted]

Hi all, this is my first post!

I've been following Otogizoushi since the first week and I'm amazed to find so many people here that enjoy it as much as I do. I've tried getting people to watch it, but they refuse to give it a chance because it lacks animation that cost the studio hundreds of thousands to make. However, I've stuck with it and loved every single episode of this anime. It's just something different and historical and I am very keen on Japanese history. I've become emotionally attached to this anime and to it's characters; especially Tsuna. He's been my favourite since the first time I heard him proclaim his identity in that long-winded manner xD It's also because I usually go for the slightly older/wiser and more traditional characters in any story i.e. Shunsui from Bleach, Hiko Seijuro from RuroKen, etc. But... I just finished watching episode 12.. and..

Spoiler for for episode 12:

I am so.. so sad! I didn't think Tsuna would really die. Part of me was sure he'd overcome his vision problem and claim revenge for Urabe's murder.. but... he didn't. At least he died in a diginified way... like a Legendary Hero should.. it still doesn't stop me from feeling sad.. *goes off to weep some more*

I don't know what happens next either, because I refuse to watch raw episodes. I don't read/speak Japanese enough to know what's going yet anyway. I just want to see what happens with Mansairaku and Hikaru in the near future! I'm not sure how the other 14 episode I've yet to watch will go.. because it feels like the anime is coming to and end. When Anime-Kraze get to them, I'm sure I won't be disappointed.

In the mean time, all I can hope is that this series gets a decent DVD release!!


Okay, that's my introduction rant over with. Looking forward to talking more about this with you folks ^___^

[Guts]

I just started watching this anime, Otogizoushi is a legend in its own. I have seen few animes with such a badass art style, and great characters. (They actually look japanese too). It feels like more like a good book being read out, while im veiwing it. The substance here gives it a lifelike blush, the chars can live or die based on normal circumstances. It makes me all the more excited.

[wao]

Ahh... bad news for those following the raws, Production I.G. is having a break week and the next episode (episode 15) will not air today (12/10) but next week (19/10). Well, hope you get a good rest, Production I.G.! Better animation I hope

EDIT: It does give, um, somebody, more breathing space to catch up, of course. Though somebody, or collection of bodies, may be otherwise occupied with other more illustrious images

[dreamless]

finally watched ep14, and although I feel it starts a bit wacky, I actually got absorbed into the story within the first ten minutes. VERY intriguing story, and I can see some connections to cetain famous urban legends. the modern Hikaru is CUTE! And I like the modern Tsuna a lot too. Modern Mansairaku... err... well, let's wait and see... but he starts even creepier than before

Drawing Taichi graph with the railroads in Tokyo? interesting...

And that old guy reading Otogizoushi... lol...

[jalana]

Originally Posted by dreamless

And that old guy reading Otogizoushi... lol...

In case you didn't make the connection,

Spoiler:

the guy on the train reading Otogizoushi is the Minister of the Left from the Heian period. Iiiiiinteresting... ^_^

And Mansairaku... Now, he's mysterious and brooding and oh so yummy!

[BeNighted]

Only on episode 13 here

I must say I really liked the way the episode was done. It was a little puzzling in places though... correct me if I'm wrong, but..

Spoiler for episode 13:

Mansairaku was doing what "fate" demanded so a new and better era would rise from the ashes of the Heian. But.. because he didn't go through with it, all who were in the capital are reborn in our modern time? Bah, it's so late at night here, it hurts my brain.. someone please break it down so that a half-dead dude can work it out.

I'm really looking forward to seeing episode 14.. Tsume looks like a bum! He's the kind of cool that never dies

[wao]

Yes! I can't wait to see a, um, clarified version of episode 14!! I personally think Mansaicoatu is just so damn cool (but also scary) and Hikaru in the preview shots for ep 15 (finally up on Production I.G.'s site) is really, honestly, so cute! ^_^

I also really love the OP. I NEED MORE OF IT. Also, the Tokyo arc ED, is it the same as the insert song for ep 13 except with different lyrics? IT's got the same tune, that's why...

I did notice the guy on the train

Spoiler:

sounded exactly like that Minister Who else will we see, I wonder? Mansaicoatu's huge fans? "Man-sama~"

I really can't wait for ep 16, I'm expecting more consistent animation (the animation so far as been a bit odd, some places the faces are drawn weirdly but it's great for a TV series compared to other studios) -- so this means "OMFG I LOVE YOU PRODUCTION I.G." sort of animation, since the animation director is the character designer (not Shou Tajima, but Kazuchika Kise)

As for ep 13 I've appreciated it more after understanding what they were saying. And you know what, I tend to agree with Mansairaku Seriously, he makes sense. In life everything has to cease to exist and come back again in cycles and cycles and Hikaru can't seem to understand that. Of course Mansairaku's being rather egotistic, thinking he's the one destined to change teh world without leaving it to nature. Once you start all over again, the capital will just go rotten again... Ahh, how depressing . I kind of liked the use of that insert song for the last part of ep 13. It was a bit melodramatic/cheesy/sentimental in some bits but hey, it did create the atmosphere pretty well. THe lyrics are pretty good too. (well, better than Hoshi ni Negai wo anyday IMO)


(I wonder if I spoiled anything there?)

(Hmmm...)

[dreamless]

Oh, and I think the Modern Arc's art style is very good, it feels somewhat different from the Heian Arc's art, but at the same time the transition is smooth. it's still has a painting-like touch, but it also feels very life-like

[wao]

Yes - one thing that I am GREATLY fond of with this series is the excellent character designs of Kise Kazuchika. They fit so perfectly well and they're so detailed, professional, pleasing to the eye, and LIFE-LIKE! Many have commented that "the character actually look Japanese" and damn well are they right. Putting these character designs in a modern context makes them even more life-like and easier to relate to. And Mansaicoatu is hot ;x

Another thing I'm just so in love with is this particular sequence from the OP, when Mansaicoatu and Hikaru are walking towards each other and it's in black and white, and then just when they pass each other they closeup into their heads and the picture comes into colour and Mansairaku turns his face. I just can't express how much I love this part!! The song with the animations just is so... <3 And the animation itself is so AWESOME! This is why I love Production I.G.... The way they are walking is so seriously lifelike it's almost scary. But really, it's awesome. The colouring, the motion, all of that...


EDIT: After gushing and going off on a fangirl tangent I realised dreamless was talking about the background art Typical of me, isn't it?
I love the scenes of the city with the lovely filters. They relate to the Heian-arc painting style and yet they're so modern looking....

[dreamless]

^ well, actually I was referring to both the background art and the character art, and yup they are both great. And I totally agree with what you have said ^^

[wao]

Oh yeah, and in my spurt of no-life-ness, let me make a feeble attempt to "translate" the synopsis for episode 18 that Production I.G. has put up...

Spoiler for episode 18, Ueno:

The fire blazes across the jet-black surface of the water as the lotuses bloom. As the season comes into full bloom*, and the sakura trees are enveloped in flames, the forest of Ueno is hit by the blaze. Hiding her entire body, her feet, her clothes, her fingers, and unable to do anything about the fire, Hikaru's screams echo throughout the night.

*I don't really make sense of 季節はずれに咲き誇る ... IS it "kisetsu wa zure ni sakihokoru" or "kisetsu hazure ni sakuhokoru"? Bah.

I honestly have no life... guess who entered the animation supervisors and episode directors and storyboarders into the ANN entry for Otogizoushi...

EDIT: I stumbled across

Spoiler for http://www2.ocn.ne.jp/~azuma1/IG11.htm:

this Japanese page

with transcripted lyrics of the new OP song, Ashita wa Kyou to Onaji Mirai. In case there is actually anyone who wants lyrics before the clarified version of episode 14 appears before us....

Most of the lyrics seem to fit (heck, what would I know about transcripting songs, the guy is Japanese, of course he can transcript billions of times better than me) juts that I can't seem to hear the first "Sekai" in the 3rd line and the 2nd "Sekai" sounds more like "chikai", but whatever...
Here are the romaji-fied lyrics based off that site.

Spoiler for I have no life!:

OP: Ashita wa kyou to onaji mirai by GOMES THE HITMAN
Mou hoka wa doko ni mo nai
Arasuji mo kisoku mo nai
Sekai no naka no sekai de

Ashita wa kyou to onaji mirai
Demo boku wa sonna yuruginai hibi to
Sukoshi no kitai
Sasayakana sukoshi no mirai

Futatsu no kage ga yurete
Toki wo kasane
Kokoro umeku mayo naka ni

Ima wa omoi tsuku kotobatachi subete wo kanata ni
Tsutaetai omoi wo kokoro kara anata ni
Boku wa tada afuredasu
Koe wo kagiri ni chikou

The singles only come out 25/11 T_T

[Yebyosh]

On episode 14, the animation is still pretty much the same. They just stopped using line fills because modern city scenary tends to be more cluttered and less open space. As such, the background art actually comes off better. You can still see that the characters still get 'weird' in their face sometimes ( I think second eyelids and lips should not be drawn so bold. It looks weird to me ).

One thing though, Hikaru appears more petulant this time and her voice now seems 'younger'. Good use of showing the results of different upbringing can have on the same child I think. Heian Hikaru is court lady-like. Modern Hikaru is your current teenage kid.

Anyway, it now has a feel of a supernatural mystery instead of a heroic tale. Our Scooby Gang will now go around bumping into Japanese urban legends ( the modern stretch is based on them ) and solve the mystery of Hikaru's brother.

Does modern Mansairaku not look pathetically sad?