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Old 2004-07-15, 03:51   Link #21
Inuzuka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool On The Hill
(I searched) Sorry for bringing this up because it seems kind of un-answerable, but I wanted to see what other people though.

The 3rd said that when using the Death God sealing technique (sorry, dont want to look up the name), the soul is sealed within the user of the technique. If Yondaime used it on Kyuubi...how is it sealed in Naruto? I can come to my own conclusions, but again - want to see what you think.
Well,regarding the part on why Kyuubi was sealed in Naruto instead of 'death'.There have been theories on that part,but the best one i've heard so far goes like this.
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-07-15, 11:13   Link #22
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken102
FotH: Heh; I didn't even think about the similarities there, but you've got a pretty good point, there. So which one would it have been? The Spider, perhaps, or the one that fell in love with Rand? (only 2 I can think of off the top of my head... it's been a while since I read that!)

Dauthi: I apologize to the mods, here, because I don't mean to rehash the same topic over and over again, just in a different thread...

but Sarutobi told Iruka in like, the first or second episode (if I remember right) that the 4th meant for Naruto to be respected and revered as the hero of the village, not some monster child. So it had to have been planned, as I would assume that the 4th had told Sarutobi these things, or at least implied them directly... therefore, the something went wrong theory is gone in my opinion.

Secondly, f I'm reading the series correctly, by reference of all these "strange Chakra" things going on, one's Chakra is like one's DNA- each person's is unique. And, since Gamabunta had seen enough of both Naruto's and the 4th's Chakra, I would assume if they're the same person (reincarnated, or reborn), their Chakra would be the same, and Gamabunta would have recognized it. (working on the theory that Chakra is a form of strength from the soul!)

When the 3rd sealed Orochimaru's arms, my guess is that it is easier to seal the soul into one's own body, but not necessary. (*shrugs*) But, again, just general hypothesizing. No absolutes, especially not in an imaginary world.
Well its pretty obvious that even if they found Naruto alone with the seal on him, they would assume that he sacrificed his body to be a prison for the Kyuubi. Of course the 4th would want Naruto to be realized as a hero, hes obviously not gonna want him recognized as a monster....

He didnt have to tell Sarutobi something so obvious, as any idiot who seen the baby laying there with the seal would assume it. Its never said anywhere or shown that he implied anything directly to anyone, so you cant really throw the theory out the window untill that happens.

My theory also makes sense more than others which have the 4th willingly put the kyuubi in the 4th in Naruto. Why would he do that? Why leave the Kyuubi a living threat when he could have sealed it within himself and died etc.
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Old 2004-07-15, 11:37   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauthi
Well its pretty obvious that even if they found Naruto alone with the seal on him, they would assume that he sacrificed his body to be a prison for the Kyuubi. Of course the 4th would want Naruto to be realized as a hero, hes obviously not gonna want him recognized as a monster....

He didnt have to tell Sarutobi something so obvious, as any idiot who seen the baby laying there with the seal would assume it. Its never said anywhere or shown that he implied anything directly to anyone, so you cant really throw the theory out the window untill that happens.

My theory also makes sense more than others which have the 4th willingly put the kyuubi in the 4th in Naruto. Why would he do that? Why leave the Kyuubi a living threat when he could have sealed it within himself and died etc.
Hmm....

Remember what the Kazekage did with Gaara? Maybe something similar, but he didn't think it would have had the same psychotic side effects. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is I think the 4th thought "Why waste this resource, when our village could use it someday?"

Secondly, it is not always obvious except from a removed point of view. We see Naruto as a hero because that's what we want to see him as; he is the main character of the story, and humans in general have a tendancy to root for the good guys. We will view him and his predicament in a way the author wants us to see Naruto. (*Notes that by Dauthi's previous remark that the konoha village must have been full of idiots, because they all thought of him as a monster*)

However, we are all approaching this story with different viewpoints. (*shrugs*) We each hold our own opinions, and have our own past experiences to base our logic on. The truth of the matter is, the world of Naruto does not seem to be ruled by logic (*points to the modern and ancient mix of technology in Konoha and surrounding villages, and the way the characters can "fly"*) In reality, we won't know what's really going on until the author lets us know, so, debating is fairly well pointless.

But, you know.... it sure is fun to speculate.
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Old 2004-07-15, 11:38   Link #24
S7EV3n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool On The Hill
(I searched) Sorry for bringing this up because it seems kind of un-answerable, but I wanted to see what other people though.

The 3rd said that when using the Death God sealing technique (sorry, dont want to look up the name), the soul is sealed within the user of the technique. If Yondaime used it on Kyuubi...how is it sealed in Naruto? I can come to my own conclusions, but again - want to see what you think.
I think my answer will help
after Sarutobi seal the HOkages and the Orochimaru's arms
the seal were in sarutobis' stomach
since 4th hokage developed that jutsu....he probly can seal it in something different...(Naruto)
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Old 2004-07-15, 11:39   Link #25
thelightandthedark
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technovia_EX
Yeah, I think Naruto is the reincarnation of the fourth too, because it's suppose to kill the user if used on a normal person.
How do you even develop a Jutsu that kills you if you are successfull?

Quote:
Originally Posted by S7EV3n
I think my answer will help
after Sarutobi seal the HOkages and the Orochimaru's arms
the seal were in sarutobis' stomach
since 4th hokage developed that jutsu....he probly can seal it in something different...(Naruto)
Then why did the 4th die when he sealed the demon?
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Old 2004-07-15, 11:48   Link #26
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forsaken102
Hmm....

Remember what the Kazekage did with Gaara? Maybe something similar, but he didn't think it would have had the same psychotic side effects. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is I think the 4th thought "Why waste this resource, when our village could use it someday?"

Secondly, it is not always obvious except from a removed point of view. We see Naruto as a hero because that's what we want to see him as; he is the main character of the story, and humans in general have a tendancy to root for the good guys. We will view him and his predicament in a way the author wants us to see Naruto. (*Notes that by Dauthi's previous remark that the konoha village must have been full of idiots, because they all thought of him as a monster*)

However, we are all approaching this story with different viewpoints. (*shrugs*) We each hold our own opinions, and have our own past experiences to base our logic on. The truth of the matter is, the world of Naruto does not seem to be ruled by logic (*points to the modern and ancient mix of technology in Konoha and surrounding villages, and the way the characters can "fly"*) In reality, we won't know what's really going on until the author lets us know, so, debating is fairly well pointless.

But, you know.... it sure is fun to speculate.
I doubt he would willingly put his Village, that by the way hes giving his life for, in danger of having the kyuubi released again.

People are scared of what they dont understand, its that simple. Any place is full of ignorance, look at racism for example. Wouldnt you consider them idiots for thinking that in the first place? I think most of us would agree so.

I still have yet to see any major loopholes with my theory, unlike others. It solves why he would seal it in Naruto which makes no sense, as well as why he easily learns the 4ths techniques easily, looks like the 4th, and even has a personality similiar to the 4th.

In all it is a theory, but like i said i have yet to have someone point out a hard fact that would make me drop it .

EDIT

I also think it would be cool, i will be really dissapointed if hes just Narutos son, that would be really... just unimaginative. Everyone who watches it comes up with that idea, so it wouldnt have a surprise or twist im hoping for.

Last edited by Dauthi; 2004-07-15 at 11:59.
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Old 2004-07-15, 11:54   Link #27
S7EV3n
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thelightandthedark
How do you even develop a Jutsu that kills you if you are successfull?
well...I dunno..
then how do you think Sarutobi have learned it???
maybe there is away to learn it( or develop it)..with out actually doing the jutsu



Quote:
Then why did the 4th die when he sealed the demon?
well..the one who uses the Jutsu dies..simple huh??
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Old 2004-07-15, 12:26   Link #28
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Hmmm.... I dunno....

I think there's alot to be said for fulfilling audience expectations....

Ah, well. I'm afraid I'm going to succumb to the fact that we won't know until the author tells us, and remove myself from this debate. I'm afraid that I base many of my arguments on half remembered facts from the anime.

To say they aren't always sound is more than a bit of an understatement.
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Old 2004-07-15, 12:34   Link #29
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oo fellow WoT fans..imho it could be Semirhage, haven't really found out how she looks yet in the books.
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Old 2004-07-15, 12:56   Link #30
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the 4th invented the jutsu, so, he HAD to have told people what he was planning on doing..im sure it was not just a whim all of a sudden, the battle against kyubi most likely lasted for more than a few hours...during which time the 4th probably had time to go over some battle plans with the leaf counsil, and the 3rd....and whoever else he needed to. im sure he made it known what he was planning to do and that he was going to perform the sealing jutsu he developed. Otherwise, if he hadnt told anyone about it, no one would know what the heck naruto was doing there lying on the ground with a seal on his stomache. i also dont think the jutsu happened instantaneously...with the 3rd and orochimaru it takes a considerable amount of time for the 3rd to seal even oro's arms...i imagine that kyubi resisted the 4th much like oro resisted the 3rd, and that it took some time for the jutsu to be completed. the other combatants had to have had some idea what was going on, or they might have totally screwed up the 4th while he was mid-jutsu and ruined everything.
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Old 2004-07-15, 13:42   Link #31
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I don't think Naruto is the 4th for a couple of reasons. First of all 4th was nothing like Naruto, watch at 15:50 eps 90. Secondly there's a reason for not sealing kyubi and the go and kill your self, kyubi is immortal. Don't remember the exact episode but when Naruto is about to summon the frog boss, when he's falling to a certain death, he asks kyubi for it's power and kyubi just laughs at Naruto for thinking that kyubi will die with him, but then grants Naruto his powers because he came so far. The fact that the death god jutsu used on kyubi would turn you into a new born baby if back firing, or something along those lines, sounds highly unlikely as well. I really don't see the connection.
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Old 2004-07-15, 13:53   Link #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sairon
Secondly there's a reason for not sealing kyubi and the go and kill your self, kyubi is immortal. Don't remember the exact episode but when Naruto is about to summon the frog boss, when he's falling to a certain death, he asks kyubi for it's power and kyubi just laughs at Naruto for thinking that kyubi will die with him, but then grants Naruto his powers because he came so far.

Actually, I thought it was established that if Naruto dies, so does Kyuubi....Kyuubi laughs at Naruto's bargain with him because here's this 12 year old kid bargaining with an age old all powerful creature, but he knows Naruto is right, thats why he lends him the power to begin with. That's how the whole defense mechanism works....
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Old 2004-07-15, 13:56   Link #33
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My guess would be that since the 4th is the master of the jutsu, he did something crazy which allowed him to seal it in something living. If Naruto is the 4th reincarnate, that could explain why it took him so long to arrive, he was probably telling jiraya to tell naruto what he was when he became mature enough. It also could explain why jiraya wasnt there for most of Naruto's childhood, because he loved the 4th like a son, and didnt want to accidentaly tell Naruto what he was.

In regards to the Sword of Truth series, it is exceptionally good. The first two books are great, the 3rd and 4th slow down a bit, but the 5th and the 6th are great again. I'm thinking of buying the 7th tonight. The only problem with Goodkind's writing is that he tends to add in too many characters, and goes into too much detail. The books could be just as good without that many character, I mean only one of his books isnt over 800 pages, they take forever to read
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Old 2004-07-15, 14:19   Link #34
Dauthi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dix11
the 4th invented the jutsu, so, he HAD to have told people what he was planning on doing..im sure it was not just a whim all of a sudden, the battle against kyubi most likely lasted for more than a few hours...during which time the 4th probably had time to go over some battle plans with the leaf counsil, and the 3rd....and whoever else he needed to. im sure he made it known what he was planning to do and that he was going to perform the sealing jutsu he developed. Otherwise, if he hadnt told anyone about it, no one would know what the heck naruto was doing there lying on the ground with a seal on his stomache. i also dont think the jutsu happened instantaneously...with the 3rd and orochimaru it takes a considerable amount of time for the 3rd to seal even oro's arms...i imagine that kyubi resisted the 4th much like oro resisted the 3rd, and that it took some time for the jutsu to be completed. the other combatants had to have had some idea what was going on, or they might have totally screwed up the 4th while he was mid-jutsu and ruined everything.
Actually when a monster fox attacks you arent gonna sit around drink tea and discuss anything. The 4th knew what had to be done, and used a jutsu that he developed at some point in time. Sarutobi also knew the jutsu, so he would obviously knew what it would do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sairon
don't think Naruto is the 4th for a couple of reasons. First of all 4th was nothing like Naruto, watch at 15:50 eps 90. Secondly there's a reason for not sealing kyubi and the go and kill your self, kyubi is immortal. Don't remember the exact episode but when Naruto is about to summon the frog boss, when he's falling to a certain death, he asks kyubi for it's power and kyubi just laughs at Naruto for thinking that kyubi will die with him, but then grants Naruto his powers because he came so far. The fact that the death god jutsu used on kyubi would turn you into a new born baby if back firing, or something along those lines, sounds highly unlikely as well. I really don't see the connection.
Besides Naruto, the only other person to forcefully ride Gamabunta to make him believe that they are worthy, was the 4th. So yeah, i think they were very similiar. You have to remember while he can be the same person, his life was very different as well.

EDIT

Also in episode 90 Tsunade is saying that on purpose to agitate naruto. She obviously noticed similiarities, but i wouldnt take what she was saying seriously.
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Old 2004-07-15, 14:39   Link #35
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well here's my theory:

I don't think that Naruto is the 4th because of these reasons:

1. I believe that the 4th came up with this technique. That's why even oro didn't know about it. also he wanted Naruto to be able to use the kyuubi's powers to protect the village. *IF* i am correct and the 4th is Naruto's dad, why won't they just tell Naruto that his dad is the 4th? Well, because of the Kyuubi inside of him. Remember, NO ONE is supposed to talk about the kyuubi inside of Naruto. If they told him that his dad was the 4th and that the Kyuubi was sealed inside a kid, what are the chances that his son has it in him...

The 4th: Excuse me ma'ma, can I seal this demon inside of your son?

yea, see my point?

2. the 3rd said that u die no matter what when u use this jutsu. Basically u sold your soul to that demon once u called upon it.

3. the 4th did come up with this jutsu so he may have found a way to seal it in naruto. SO why didn't the 3rd seal Oro in someone else? Either because he didn't want to risk the chance of Oro taking over the body or because he didn't know how to do it. But I think it's more like he didn't want to risk Oro taking over the bod he's in.


4. If he is the reincarnation of the 4th, wouldn't the hokage or Jiraiya know somehow? Wouldn't they have said something like "Right after the 4 sealed the kyuubi and died, a baby was born with the same marks on it's stomache" or something close to that instead of "The 4th sealed the demon into a baby and died afterwards" or something like that? O_O;;
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Old 2004-07-15, 14:41   Link #36
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also because Oro did a little summon called "Edo Tensei" where he summoned the 1st, 2nd, and 4th but the 3rd prevented the 4th from being summoned. Yea, that might have something to do with Naruto not being the 4th too...

<edit> Sorry double post
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Old 2004-07-15, 15:03   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerniciousJuJu
also because Oro did a little summon called "Edo Tensei" where he summoned the 1st, 2nd, and 4th but the 3rd prevented the 4th from being summoned. Yea, that might have something to do with Naruto not being the 4th too...

<edit> Sorry double post

or maybe it was just some random dead guy........

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Old 2004-07-15, 15:12   Link #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fool On The Hill
or maybe it was just some random dead guy........

ahaha... MAYBE...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inuzuka
Spoiler:


I think that naruto is his son or something like that, that's why he sealed it in naruto. There has to be a reason why he chose Naruto right? I mean he wouldn't just chose some random kid. I also think that the reason why he sealed it in Naruto is because he wanted the village to think of Naruto as a hero but instead they thought of him as the demon itself. The 4th also left Naruto in Kakashi's care, who is one of three of the 4th's students. I believe the 4th was hoping kakashi would teach naruto how to use the kyuubi's power so he can protect the village just like how the 4th did.
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Old 2004-07-15, 15:40   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PerniciousJuJu
also because Oro did a little summon called "Edo Tensei" where he summoned the 1st, 2nd, and 4th but the 3rd prevented the 4th from being summoned. Yea, that might have something to do with Naruto not being the 4th too...

<edit> Sorry double post
Never really thought of it that way but that does make some sense. When I saw that episode I thought more that the 4th was by far the strongest even more so than 3rd in his prime so he HAD to stop that one or he was toast.

But the possiblity that it could have recalled the 4th's soul from naruto could have been the urgancy too. Especially since if the soul was recalled to the Edo Tenseni puppet it would have probly free'ed kyuubi.
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Old 2004-07-15, 16:44   Link #40
Sairon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dauthi
Actually when a monster fox attacks you arent gonna sit around drink tea and discuss anything. The 4th knew what had to be done, and used a jutsu that he developed at some point in time. Sarutobi also knew the jutsu, so he would obviously knew what it would do.



Besides Naruto, the only other person to forcefully ride Gamabunta to make him believe that they are worthy, was the 4th. So yeah, i think they were very similiar. You have to remember while he can be the same person, his life was very different as well.

EDIT

Also in episode 90 Tsunade is saying that on purpose to agitate naruto. She obviously noticed similiarities, but i wouldnt take what she was saying seriously.
If jiraya is telling the truth and isn't using sarcasm (which he doesn't seem to be) in episode 90, Naruto and the 4th have VERY diffrent traits.

I don't know how the 4th managed to stay on Gamabuntas head, but as far as we know Gamabunta could have allowed it, there's nothing which I recall that suggests that the 4th had to go through the same proccess as Naruto.

Also if you look at the picture of the 4th ( doesn't remember which episode that was ) it doesn't look like a young Naruto, sure there are similarities, but the face doesn't resemble Narutos very much at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PerniciousJuJu
I think that naruto is his son or something like that, that's why he sealed it in naruto. There has to be a reason why he chose Naruto right? I mean he wouldn't just chose some random kid. I also think that the reason why he sealed it in Naruto is because he wanted the village to think of Naruto as a hero but instead they thought of him as the demon itself. The 4th also left Naruto in Kakashi's care, who is one of three of the 4th's students. I believe the 4th was hoping kakashi would teach naruto how to use the kyuubi's power so he can protect the village just like how the 4th did.
The 4th didn't leave Naruto in Kakashis care, they met for the very first time when Naruto graduated from the ninja school. In fact, nobody seemed to care very much at all about Naruto, exception perhaps being Hinata.
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