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Old 2004-11-08, 22:32   Link #921
MiT
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Join Date: Nov 2004
A rather late reply to 'TheLastGuardian''s post regarding reactions and comparing them to our own.

I found a number of scenes very touching in Elfen Lied, eg, when those guys decided to kill the dog in front of the younger Lucy's eyes...I'm quite sure that most people, especially after so much abuse from people like that, would do something similar to what Lucy did, if they had the power to.

We can understand Nana's pain at seeing her father die before her eyes, carrying a girl who was his real daughter. Imagine the feelings of betrayal she must be experiencing.

Those were a few that stuck out in my mind and still do...our reactions and those in Elfen Lied may be different, when it comes to the small things, but I think that they've got most of them dead center when it comes to an overall view of the anime. That was why I didn't find what John said, about 'arm's length' to be too plausible...I certainly could emphatize with what was going on when I watched the show.

Still, maybe it's just me
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Old 2004-11-08, 23:13   Link #922
Edgewalker
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Sorry if this is redundant as I cant shift through all 47 pages , but does anyone know how I can buy this anime ? It looks awesome , and has great reviews .
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Old 2004-11-08, 23:59   Link #923
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Edgewalker
Sorry if this is redundant as I cant shift through all 47 pages , but does anyone know how I can buy this anime ? It looks awesome , and has great reviews .
You have to wait for ADV to release it on DVD. As far as I know they haven't yet announced the release date.
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Old 2004-11-09, 06:48   Link #924
dreamless
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Hmm... I don't think it has anything to do with taste or liking the characters or not. I think Elfen Lied just doesn't portray the character very intimately, not in the manga, nor the anime. So it's just harder to feel for the characters closely, whether loving or hating them. For example, I can feel for the characters in Narutaru, Saikano, NTHT and Berserk very closely, I can really hate characters like Hamdo in NTHT, really feel sad for characters like Sara in NTHT, Akemi in Saikano, really feel pity for characters like Akira in Narutaru, etc. I can love or hate them, like or dislike them, really personally. However for Elfen Lied, although I love characters like Nana and Kurama, hate characters like Kakuzawa, and worship the evil Lucy, they feel indeed more like at an arm's length rather than an intimate feeling.

For example, Nana is super cute and I feel sorry for her when I see the tragic events she goes through, but that's mostly just during those scenes, and they don't leave as close or deep an impression as, say, Sara in NTHT, where I really feel like experiencing all the pain and struggle with her, and can feel it even after finish watching the anime. In Elfen Lied it's mostly something just during the scenes, when those things happen on screen or on page, I can see the shock, the tragedy, the emotion, but that never truly strike into the hearts of the viewer and leave as much feeling as the other animes. I'd say Elfen Lied is highly captivating and emotional with its explicit and impactful scenes, but I think it lacks a certain immersion factor to make people feel like experiencing the events right beside the characters, to make people really relate into the fictional world.
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Old 2004-11-09, 08:50   Link #925
MiT
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Well, I haven't watched those anime yet, so I guess it isn't too fair for me to make a judgement, ne?

Still, I thought the char development for Kuruma wasn't too bad...I was thinking that he was this evil heartless Supervisor at the beginning of the show, which changed dramatically as the episodes progressed.


And yes, I worship Lucy as well
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Old 2004-11-10, 01:35   Link #926
The Yellow Dwarf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
In Elfen Lied it's mostly something just during the scenes, when those things happen on screen or on page, I can see the shock, the tragedy, the emotion, but that never truly strike into the hearts of the viewer and leave as much feeling as the other animes. I'd say Elfen Lied is highly captivating and emotional with its explicit and impactful scenes, but I think it lacks a certain immersion factor to make people feel like experiencing the events right beside the characters, to make people really relate into the fictional world.
I didn't watch the whole series so perhaps I shouldn't talk, but from what I've seen (5 eps) I agree.

Elfen Lied seems to go in the direction of "Love Hina with Psychos." It's not about the level of violence, but the "problems" that each character has to resolve are so in-your-face they end up kind of trite. Sure, the violence can make your stomach churn, but beyond the immediate physical reaction to the brutality displayed there doesn't seem to be much else to cling on to. The opening is absolutely stunning, but the rest of the anime is actually kind of dry.
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Old 2004-11-10, 07:33   Link #927
dreamless
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well, it really depends on how the comedies/tragedies play out, for example, I don't feel close to characters in Excel Saga or School Rumble, but IMO the characters in FLCL somehow feel closer (despite the same level or even more craziness of the show). It has really nothing to do with whether it's pessimistic or optimistic, or whether it's tragedy or comedy. I don't see NTHT being pessimistic forever, on the contrary NTHT is quite optimistic... actually NTHT must have the most optimistic main protagonist of all time

I think Elfen Lied just doesn't spend too much efforts in developing its characters, it mostly just goes for one or two powerful shock scenes, or one or two cute happy scenes. when Nana goes through those terrible events I'm shocked, when Nana goes through those cute happy scenes I feel she's extremely lovely, however those are from spectator's view point, I never feel getting immersed into the fictional world experiencing those events beside those characters.

And this is nothing about "better" or "worse" IMO, they are just different shows. For example, I don't think Excel Saga is a bad show, and it never intends to immerse the view into its fictional world to begin with, it's just a show for the viewer to watch the craziness of Excel and co. and laugh as a spectator, but not to really feel right beside the characters. I never feel Excel's crazy "love" when she's dropped into the water hole again and again, I just laugh Same goes to Elfen Lied, when I see those horrible things happened to Nana, I feel as a spectator and think "this is horrible", but not feel right besides Nana and think "I feel Nana's pain", different from NTHT where I can say that I myself almost feel Sara's pain and suffering like go through those events with her. And I don't think Elfen Lied tried to make the viewers really feel like right besides the characters and experiencing the events with them anyway.
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Old 2004-11-10, 20:18   Link #928
Elbowlick
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And now... another Nana comic. : )



The Elfen Lied manga was about this subtle, I think. : )

Also, here's a gunslinger girl one:



(more here: http://manga.clone-army.org/nana.html )


Anyway, I have to agree that EL doesn't have much character development... rather, it's just a rollercoaster ride of pain and suffering. : )
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Old 2004-11-10, 20:27   Link #929
sarcasteak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elbowlick
And now... another Nana comic. : )



The Elfen Lied manga was about this subtle, I think. : )
Oh man, why am I laughing at this?!?!? ^___^;;
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Old 2004-11-10, 23:24   Link #930
MiT
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Awwww poor nana! I feel horrible for chuckling at that.
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Old 2004-11-11, 02:50   Link #931
Emotive_Adamantium
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I thought I might post my review of Elfen Lied from Animenfo.com here just to vent some steam after watching the series.

__________________________________________________ _______________

Overall: Somewhere between an orgasm and being reborn as a god.

Enjoyment: No matter how many times I see it, I'm still amazed. This series somehow manages to pick up material from nearly every anime cliché in existence and turn them all into one intricate, psychological mess. Like some sort of snug, velvety quagmire.

Animation: This director gives us a solid example of modern, ground breaking cinematography. Everything from the imagery, to the camera angles; the visual experience is a consortium of all the right things to do.

Sound: Technically speaking, I've rarely heard sound cues as crisp, and well-placed. Voice talent's fresh. And I still bought the soundtrack even with import fees what they are.

Story: The story-telling pace never dropped. It began at peak level in episode 1 and was maintained all the way through episode 13. Future authors and script writers better take good notes on this one. Slight variations from the manga, but the source material is so good that no direction they could have taken would have marred its beauty. Bravo to the Manga author Rin Okamoto, who, mere months before the popularization of this story, was just another malnourished artist living in a tattered apartment complex.

Harem: Although it would have been easy for the few pinches of harem to spoil the show, luckily, there's simply too much happening for the characters to stumble into this pitfall. In fact, without this spice, the whole meal wouldn't have been nearly as well-balanced. It's a good thing they remembered to keep the cap on the shaker, unlike so much else out there.

Favorite aspects:
1) The art from the introduction. Much better than Austrian painter Gustav Klimt, whose work the scenes and poses were modeled after.
2) The song from the introduction.
3) Both Lucy/Nyu and young Lucy, whose overal impression is like a mix between Haruko from FLCL, Lain, my pet cat, and monster #4 from Ridley Scott's 1979 epic horror thriller "Alien".

Similar Anime: Hellsing, Berserk.

Thoughts: It's a forgivable sin of eastern culture, but many animes end up travelling one of two paths:
1) After the series begins, if it gets its ratings, it will ride that wave and stretch the plot and length of episodes, stuffing everything with filler. Meanwhile the characters become describable in three sentences tops. By the time it reaches its predictable fan-servicing ending, sure, you'll be satisfied, but what it's left behind isn't so much the work of art it could have been, as it is an old toy with bits and pieces broken everywhere and a lot of fond memories.
2)Then, there are the animes like Elfen Lied, which, although were much shorter, had more soul and substance. They are more like the toy you would always covet but could never afford. Are there regrets for not ever getting to call it your own and keep it with you? Sure, a few. But there's something that can be said for the short time you knew it, and perhaps it wouldn't hold such a revered place in your memory if you ever really got to keep it.

Something to consider: Some reviewers before me have said "Lucy was a murderer that killed in cold blood. She’s a monster..." Any Zoologist would tell you that predatorial species are essential for the ultimate survival and variety of an ecosystem's animal kingdom. The Diclonius are a predatorial species. And considering that humans do such substantial damage to all species below them in the food chain, it can be viewed that the Diclonius, who prey only on humans, are a perfect answer for the balance of nature.

Bottom line, if the frankness and mature themes got to you, first of all you should never have even watched it, and secondly, don't let it sway the ratings you give if you're writing a fair review. Enough said.

Here's hoping to some well-placed OVA's or, devil-be-willing, a large enough Elfen-craving fan base in Japan for a 2nd season when there's enough of the manga for it.

Ending remarks? ... *puffs out a sigh* Nyu is sooo cute! Good Kitty! *pets*

__________________________________________________ _______________


Anyway, I have a theory about why the Diclonius don't seem to ever attack Kurama. Perhaps it is because he's the only character in the entire anime that's actually killed a Diclonius? They said in one of the episodes that he had killed something like 14 so far, and I'm pretty sure that was one of the flashback episodes, so it's likely he's been the one killing most of the unnecessary Diclonius babies in the facility since.

Now, considering the Diclonius only seem to kill humans and have no instinctual drive to gratuitously kill anything else, maybe there's some connection, some further unstated rules of their species about killing. Maybe they can 'sense' that Kurama's killed them in the past, and maybe this frightens them away from messing with him. Remember the first episode, when Lucy slaughtered everyone but Kurama, and just walked past him? Remember that we could actually see that one of her vectors left a red, bloody print of its 'hand' on his back? I wonder if that was Lucy patting him on the back out of respect?
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Old 2004-11-12, 13:45   Link #932
SpOiLeR
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just finished this series and reading this thread. i couldnt agree with you guys more.

can anyone explain who was that person at the end of the anime? if its nyuu/lucy then i would seriously have to call that BS. i mean, she cannot survive a gunfight from both sides from like 50 men?

and about a second season? couldnt that be possible.
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:11   Link #933
intruder1
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Where can I get it?

I wanted to know if anyone can tell me where I can purchase the DVDs and the manga? I have found one site, but since I can't read japanese characters, I'm kinda stuck. If it isn't out here in the US, (translated to english) are there plans for a release? And if that's the case, who will be publishing them? When are they due out?
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:17   Link #934
7thMethuselah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by intruder1
I wanted to know if anyone can tell me where I can purchase the DVDs and the manga? I have found one site, but since I can't read japanese characters, I'm kinda stuck. If it isn't out here in the US, (translated to english) are there plans for a release? And if that's the case, who will be publishing them? When are they due out?
The anime is licensed to ADV Films, as far as I know no dates for a release have been given up to this point.

The manga is still unlicensed I believe, check here for scanlations

http://www.manganews.net/show.php?title=1841
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:21   Link #935
dreamless
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I think this series is licensed by ADV, as to when it will come out in DVDs in US, I have no idea.

EDIT: 7thMethuselah beats me to it... oh well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SpOiLeR
just finished this series and reading this thread. i couldnt agree with you guys more.

can anyone explain who was that person at the end of the anime? if its nyuu/lucy then i would seriously have to call that BS. i mean, she cannot survive a gunfight from both sides from like 50 men?

and about a second season? couldnt that be possible.
Hmm... which of the guys here are you agreeing with? I mean, from what I see, it seems people here have very polarized opinions about this show, some think it's the incarnation of perfection, some think it's a huge disappointment, some think it's absolutely flawless, some think it has quite some big flaws...
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:28   Link #936
Guido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpOiLeR
Can anyone explain who was that person at the end of the anime?
Spoiler:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Emotive Adamantium
Any Zoologist would tell you that predatorial species are essential for the ultimate survival and variety of an ecosystem's animal kingdom. The Diclonius are a predatorial species. And considering that humans do such substantial damage to all species below them in the food chain, it can be viewed that the Diclonius, who prey only on humans, are a perfect answer for the balance of nature.
True. But you're forgetting that predatorial species also create an instinctive, symbiotic balance along with their preys. If that was the opposite, the predators will then end up dying of starvation because of having completely wipe out all their substantial preys within their surrounding ecosystem.
The point is about creating and preserving natural balance.

Humans possess the ability to decide their own fates and, therefore, not following the conventional life-cycle that the rest of animal species follow up.
The same case could be applied to Diclonus. Since they're evolved forms of humans, therefore, they have enough self-sufficient power to eradicate mankind without no need of humans for their survival. Opposite to the rest of animal predatorial species that by instinct need to preserve quite a number of other preying species in order to survive.

However, this leads to a key question. If Diclonus are borned with the sole purpose to waste humans, what would become of their fates once they vanquish entirely humankind? Will they replace us as the dominant species in the food chain? Or did mother nature spontaneously evolve them with just the single purpose of terminating humans?
Will nature later on select them for extinction, as it had seen that the Diclonius already fullfilled their function?
If Diclonius are evolved from humans, wouldn't they on later generations begin to commit the same mistakes as humans and be allowed in getting consumed by vanity and ambition?
In other words, will Diclonius as keep on evolving inherit our same vices and defects that we humans are constantly being victims of?
What guarantee there is for, in an all Diclonius world, them not fighting, betraying, and killing among themselves?

In the first Matrix movie, the Agent Smith character quoted an interesting point about humans being a plague or virus to the world.

Taking that analogy, if 'we' humans are the disease and Diclonius the 'cure' (vaccine), does mother nature guarantees that the cure will not get out of its control?

There are cases where the cure results worse or fatal rather than the disease.

Do really Diclonius are borned just to kill?
Is their only function just to destroy mankind, and then be disposed by nature after fullfilling that task?
Can't they just attempt to rebel against that fate and instinct of them?
Because of that instinct, aren't they allowed to strive for individuality and personal life? Strive to earn and acquire a place in the world and setting up personal goals and dreams just like the rest of the ordinary humankind?
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Old 2004-11-12, 15:55   Link #937
dreamless
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Hmm... about the Declonius evolution theories, first I don't think "mother nature" has any consciousness, not to mention sentience, so I don't really think "mother nature" can make any guarantee or such things in terms of natural evolution. the existence of mankind is proof of that

Also I don't think the Diclonius here are natural evolutions. First they are not really evolved, but they result from genetic mutation after getting infected by a virus, so they are not really an evolution, but a result of infection from another organism. Secondly it seems they have some hardcoded rules programmed into their genes, like only kill humans, don't hurt animals. That's very weird. I mean, take example, for herbivores like sheep, they don't eat other animals, however when other animals attack them they still try to defend themselves using whatever means they have and counter attack if possible. Diclonius are different, when they are biten by dogs, they don't even try to do any counter attack. But they are still omnivores like humans, eating meat. that's highly unnatural, how do they kill animals for food if they can't attack them because of some genetic code?

Combining the two absurdity of the Diclonius, I'd say it's more like some genetic mutation by infection originated from some unnatural causes/manipulations rather than natural evolution. They are more like a biological weapon rather than natural evolution. Maybe the Wanta alien theory is indeed correct
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Old 2004-11-12, 16:14   Link #938
MakubeX2
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It's the Homo Sapien-Neanderthal relation again.

There were therioes that Neanderthal evolved first and Homo Sapien latered appeared and killed the Neanderthals out.

Same case here, Diclonius are evolved to take over Humans. And as Kurama has pointed out in Vol 7 of the manga that Diclonius naturally carries the Vectors Virus to infect the Human males in which to give birth to Silpelits.The Silpelits' job (which is hard encoded into their DNA) is to wipe out Human Beings and die (thus explaining their sterility) to pave way for Lucy's descendent to inherit the Earth.
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Old 2004-11-12, 17:16   Link #939
SpOiLeR
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
I think this series is licensed by ADV, as to when it will come out in DVDs in US, I have no idea.

EDIT: 7thMethuselah beats me to it... oh well...


Hmm... which of the guys here are you agreeing with? I mean, from what I see, it seems people here have very polarized opinions about this show, some think it's the incarnation of perfection, some think it's a huge disappointment, some think it's absolutely flawless, some think it has quite some big flaws...
i agree with the fact that elfen lied is an astounding anime in which its only flaws are the lacking of character development.

i just didnt get the same feeling when i watched saikano. in fact, in elfen lied, so many characters die, there's not a specific person u can feel sorry for.

and to everyone else who are analyzing the anime in terms of nature and evolution... IT'S just a cartoon! lol. i mean, it's not like diclonious are real.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2
There were therioes that Neanderthal evolved first and Homo Sapien latered appeared and killed the Neanderthals out.

Same case here, Diclonius are evolved to take over Humans. And as Kurama has pointed out in Vol 7 of the manga that Diclonius naturally carries the Vectors Virus to infect the Human males in which to give birth to Silpelits.The Silpelits' job (which is hard encoded into their DNA) is to wipe out Human Beings and die (thus explaining their sterility) to pave way for Lucy's descendent to inherit the Earth.
that homo sapien and neanderthal relation u pointed out is very interesting. From what i know, the neanderthals were limited in survival and thus died out and was replaced by homo sapiens. very interesting stuff. i think i need to open up my history books =/
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Old 2004-11-12, 17:17   Link #940
Guido
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2
There were therioes that Neanderthal evolved first and Homo Sapien latered appeared and killed the Neanderthals out.
MakubeX2, I strongly disagree with you.

Here, I have found some interesting, scientific-supported facts and theories.

Quote:
Modern Man killed off the Neanderthals
After surviving for 250,000 years in Europe, Neanderthals became extinct just 10,000 years after modern Man arrived, implicating us in their fate. However, there is no evidence for conflict. Indeed, in some regions of Europe, the two populations co-existed for thousands of years, perhaps peacefully. Slightly lower birth rates and higher mortality rates, combined with an increasingly unstable climate are now thought to have killed off the Neanderthals.

Neanderthals bred with Modern Man
Some scientists claim that a child skeleton, found in Portugal in 1998, has a mixture of Neanderthal and Modern human features. For them, it's proof of interbreeding. Other scientists dispute the claim and DNA tests on 3 other Neanderthal fossils have found no evidence for interbreeding. Research on the child continues. The debate is far from over.
Source: http://www.channel4.com/history/micr...N/neanderthal/

In theory, it can be either possible or plausible for humans and diclonius to co-exist in the world.

The problem just as dreamless has stated above

1. Is the hardcoded programming into their genes that orders them through instinct in wiping any signs of human lifeform. However, I'm getting suspicious that maybe and just maybe that disgusting vector virus is somehow responsible for messing up Diclonius DNA programming and behavior.
Just like any other virus, the vector virus is just another bastard microscopic; wondering, if Lucy is really the source of the virus? I think she's the original mediator to the virus, but the source.......?

2. The mainstream human population overall in general is still as shitty and asshole, incapable to tolerate differences of any kind up to date. So if people found about others that do not even look physically like them, then they'll take for granted that are either deformed freaks or non-humans.
We're still enduring a paradigmatic, stereotype state of consciousness where the images and looks tell who you are.



I hit my 400th post this week. Man, I've grown up old since my first post.
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