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Old 2007-11-25, 19:03   Link #1961
Arthas1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
OK, I'll concede that you are an expert on weapons fired fully automatically. Now, to show everyone how knowledgeable you are how about telling them the following:
1 - Tell us how many fully automatic selectable weapons you have fired in the fully automatic mode.
and
2 - Tell us why the US military changed the M-16 so now it has a three shot burst mode instead of a fully automatic mode.
I can only answer number two and the answer is because of the Geneva Convention. Somewhere in there it says "...must give enemy every chance of survival..." Et Cetera. I only know this because I was told why the NZ armed forces changed to smaller calibre bullets when I hung out with some navy guys. But as to the metal helmet thing with the anti-tank bullet, it may have been a combination of the vectors and the helmet. Seriously 9mm bullets are easy but a .50BMG bullet is seriously harder to stop since it will be going past supersonic speeds and its designed to penetrate approx 2 OR 3 INCHES of steel tank armour. In theory, if Lucy could slow the bullet enough, it would do the same thing that happened in the first episode when she was pitched into the sea. Linky to the picture of a .50 BMG calibre bullet
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Old 2007-11-25, 21:25   Link #1962
ApostleOfGod
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All right, this is a quote from a different forum by someone who goes by NovaStar, but I think it should clear up what happens in the ending for those of you who are confused.

Quote:
Alright, This is what my opinion is, I think I've got it pretty downpat.

DFHellraiser4 - I disagree with you on Lucy being there, I believe Lucy's Entity is no longer there at all, and I have several reasons for beliving so.

Number one: At the end of the series you see everyone sitting at the table Nana included, Nana is a Diclonious and does not sense anything at the end of the show. During that show: Nana ALWAYS Sensed Lucy.

Number Two: At the end of The Series, The Lillium Music Box, Stops working, however at the same time, The Clock(Which has been broken for the entire show) Begins to work.

Number Three: You see a Hail of Bullets being Shot at Lucy during the last fight scene.

But here's what gets me: is you know that Figure is Lucy, or to me? Is it?

My Theory is as follows: LucyNyu(Or Lucy/Nyu) however you want to call her, had two personalities from the very beginning of the show, it is my opinion that while the body still remains(With Lucy getting BOTH of her horns shot off) That The Lucy personality, is dead

Thus To me: Nyu is all that remains: Which would explain why Nana did not sense her. So while it may be the Figure behind Lucy it was also Nyu(and because of the Shillouette you really can't tell.

Also: Keep in mind: In The Elfen Lied Manga, Lucy is Killed(Without any Question to doubt) it's my opinion, That Lucy is indeed Dead: but Nyu still remains in tact.

There's also the Prospect of Kaede(Whom is a little known Third personality) which is a combination of Nyu and Lucy(Kaede, is a personality which comes out in the Childhood Flashback of Lucy and Kouta. I also find the prospect of the place they're living in known as "Kaede House" to promote this as well.

It's a Tossup really. but in my eyes: Lucy is Dead, and Nyu is the one behind the door.
AoG's addition:
There is a light flashback to Nyuu when she picked up the shell for Kouta (I believe that to be so), and if there wasn't, I'm sure that there was a short screening of the shell on the Lillium Music Box.

Therefore, my verdict, and likely NovaStar's as well, goes on to say that it's Nyuu at the door
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Old 2007-11-26, 05:41   Link #1963
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It doesn't really matter since the answer is up to interpretation. If you believe she lived then she lived, if you don't then she didn't.
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Old 2007-11-26, 05:51   Link #1964
NoSanninWa
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Originally Posted by FateAnomaly View Post
It doesn't really matter since the answer is up to interpretation. If you believe she lived then she lived, if you don't then she didn't.
Not everyone can live in an entirely subjective world. It is like leaving the box containing Schodinger's cat closed. If you don't open it you can believe that the cat is either alive or dead as you choose. Thinking that Lucy is either alive or dead as you choose is like that. However it fails common sense.

The problem is that having suspended disbelief and bonded to this show as if it was real, we feel compelled to believe that Lucy's continued life exists somehow regardless of our desire to believe in it. Therefore we try to figure out what her fate is, as if it wasn't entirely in our own heads. We must open Schrodinger's box and collapse the wavefunction determing her life.
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Old 2007-11-26, 10:14   Link #1965
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by Arthas1011 View Post
I can only answer number two and the answer is because of the Geneva Convention. Somewhere in there it says "...must give enemy every chance of survival..." Et Cetera. I only know this because I was told why the NZ armed forces changed to smaller calibre bullets when I hung out with some navy guys. But as to the metal helmet thing with the anti-tank bullet, it may have been a combination of the vectors and the helmet. Seriously 9mm bullets are easy but a .50BMG bullet is seriously harder to stop since it will be going past supersonic speeds and its designed to penetrate approx 2 OR 3 INCHES of steel tank armour. In theory, if Lucy could slow the bullet enough, it would do the same thing that happened in the first episode when she was pitched into the sea. Linky to the picture of a .50 BMG calibre bullet
Actually the Geneva Convention had nothing to do with it. In Vietnam many thousands of rounds were fired for every hit. One of the reasons was because, on full auto, the barrel rises and most of the shots were hitting the tree tops. Three shots is about the most an accomplished shooter can hope to get on target before he starts killing leaves. It is only in the movies where they are firing blanks that someone can empty a magazine while pointing at their target.
I was actually fortunate enough to get to fire the M-16 on full auto in weapons training. It was only 10 rounds and I fired two 5 round bursts. To reference it to Lucy. If I had been at the right point when the fire command was given (the end of the barrel moves as you breath and you have to time your shots, hold your breath for a moment and squeeze the trigger) I would have hit her somewhere in the body with the first shot. The second shot might have hit her horn. The third, fourth, and fifth would have been over her head. That fits very well with all the tracer rounds being shown above her. Given that a number of shooters would miss on the first shot, her going down from the shots that did hit her, and the later shots being well over her head anyway, it is quite possible for her to be badly, but not fatally, wounded.
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Old 2007-11-26, 12:41   Link #1966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NoSanninWa View Post
Not everyone can live in an entirely subjective world. It is like leaving the box containing Schodinger's cat closed. If you don't open it you can believe that the cat is either alive or dead as you choose. Thinking that Lucy is either alive or dead as you choose is like that.
Hmm.... I think, though, as NovaStar sort of pointed out, we have clues to look at. And, looking at them, I believe Lucy died.
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Old 2007-11-26, 15:36   Link #1967
Arthas1011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PastPrime View Post
Actually the Geneva Convention had nothing to do with it. In Vietnam many thousands of rounds were fired for every hit. One of the reasons was because, on full auto, the barrel rises and most of the shots were hitting the tree tops. Three shots is about the most an accomplished shooter can hope to get on target before he starts killing leaves. It is only in the movies where they are firing blanks that someone can empty a magazine while pointing at their target.
I was actually fortunate enough to get to fire the M-16 on full auto in weapons training. It was only 10 rounds and I fired two 5 round bursts. To reference it to Lucy. If I had been at the right point when the fire command was given (the end of the barrel moves as you breath and you have to time your shots, hold your breath for a moment and squeeze the trigger) I would have hit her somewhere in the body with the first shot. The second shot might have hit her horn. The third, fourth, and fifth would have been over her head. That fits very well with all the tracer rounds being shown above her. Given that a number of shooters would miss on the first shot, her going down from the shots that did hit her, and the later shots being well over her head anyway, it is quite possible for her to be badly, but not fatally, wounded.
Well, I have been put in my place. I was told it was some international law that stopped the use of large calibre bullets and auto fire weaponry. But I agree that the survival of the .50 cal bullet was a mixture of luck, the helmet and the vectors (I say vectors because even though we don't see them doesn't mean that she couldn't have used them)
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Old 2007-11-26, 16:08   Link #1968
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@Reno

If I'm not mistaken, the point NoSanW was making was that people here are drawing conclusions without any common sense and logic behind that crucial shooting event. Like how one can come to the either conclusion of whether cat is dead or alive without actually opening the box and looking inside. I mean, the cat could be found dead inside a harmless box, killed by mysterious and poisonous invisible gas that somehow penetrated the box, just as Lucy could well be alive, by following PasPrime's some bullcrap scenario. Such possibilities are still dismal at best and like he mentioned, it fails common sense.

And NovaStar's idea is that only the psychologoical entity of Lucy died, while Nyu still lives on as a both physical and psychological entity. I had an impression that you were going for lucy/nyu/whatever all died as one.
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Old 2007-11-26, 16:52   Link #1969
Arthas1011
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I was saying that they could have fused back to gether AFTER Lucy got to say what she couldn't when she was a kid
Spoiler for Scene:
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Old 2007-11-26, 19:18   Link #1970
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthas
I was saying that they could have fused back to gether AFTER Lucy got to say what she couldn't when she was a kid
Are you replying to what I have said above? No one was talking to you or mentioning your name. Or you just felt like saying that aloud.
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Old 2007-11-26, 20:23   Link #1971
PastPrime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
@Reno

If I'm not mistaken, the point NoSanW was making was that people here are drawing conclusions without any common sense and logic behind that crucial shooting event. Like how one can come to the either conclusion of whether cat is dead or alive without actually opening the box and looking inside. I mean, the cat could be found dead inside a harmless box, killed by mysterious and poisonous invisible gas that somehow penetrated the box, just as Lucy could well be alive, by following PasPrime's some bullcrap scenario. Such possibilities are still dismal at best and like he mentioned, it fails common sense.

And NovaStar's idea is that only the psychologoical entity of Lucy died, while Nyu still lives on as a both physical and psychological entity. I had an impression that you were going for lucy/nyu/whatever all died as one.
Since my scenario is bullcrap, I ask again, what experience do you have with fully automatic weapons, or do you consider watching movies as giving you knowledge. And do you think that those bullets they show going over her head are "Homing Bullets" that are going to turn around and come back. Her chances of survival depended on where she was hit, not how many times she was hit. And, since they don't show the body or have anyone state that she is dead there in no way to conclusively say that she is dead. After all, the diclonius are pretty tuff. Nana survived after having her arms and legs ripped off. Most normal people would have died of shock.
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:38   Link #1972
Arthas1011
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It seemed that people were still discussing what I said, sorry if it was too random
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:47   Link #1973
gaguri
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Never mind Arthas. I generally put '@' in front of name to address that particular someone, and sometimes people don't see that so meh.

@Pastprime

I don't need to be an expert on anything, pretty any sensible person with a triple digit IQ will argue that shooting scene seriously tests the plausibility of Lucy/Nyu's survival.

And who honestly think that bullets going over her head are going to come back at her like a homing missile. I suggest you hone you practise in interpretating other people's simple comments properly and not coming to totally wrong ideas, should you wish to have more meaningful conversations in the future.

And just because you're so uncoordinated and untrained with rifles, doesn't mean the soldiers are as incompetent as you. I'm willing to bet, at a close range (which she is at), way more than half of their shots will land on her (vital or non-vital, doesn't matter), with M-16, or AK, or even a bloody home-made rifle made by a 10 year olds in Africa, who probably have more common sense than you with such scenarios from seeing so many people being shot. I also would imagine that they've landed enough shots to literally turn her into a beehive.

And this is just my guess, but the guys with guns (and their leader) probably would have checked if she was really dead, before leaving the scene. I'm not a military expert like I've said, but I'm pretty sure one of the most important thing for soldiers/hired mercenaries/agents in completing their assassination mission, is that they actually confirm and check if their target really is dead.

And yes, Nana survived after her arms and legs were amputated. I think a normal conclusion we can draw from this, is that the animators wanted to make it all cool by pulling her arms and legs off, but needed Nana in the story, so they conjured up hocus pocus and walla, she survived. Likewise, maybe that really is Nyu behind the silhoutte. It just means that animators didn't do a very good job. But no, you just had to make yourself believe that she survived the shooting in a realistic manner. You can't accept the fact that animators zapped a deus ex to bring your beloved character. I understand that, and that's why I'm here to help you see the light ;D. I'm sure you have even more abstract and imaginative questions that runs wonderfully and freely in that sphere we call 'delusional'. Remember, I'm always here to answer for you~
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:57   Link #1974
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Actually my point is the anime itself is somewhat illogical. Given their knowledge of her abilities, all they had to do is to use exploding rounds, gas, water and anything that she cannot block easily. Unless she have enough vectors to cover her whole body, she wouldn't survive.

Since it is illogical, anything goes. I can say she blocked all bullets except the one that hit her remaining horn. I think it makes a happier ending if she did survive. With both horns gone, hopefully Lucy will be gone too (still sad but much safer).

Although i think they still have to file the last bit of horn still protruding, ouch!
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Old 2007-11-26, 22:58   Link #1975
Arthas1011
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Gaguri... Thanks for letting me off the hook. Im still kinda new to these forums so im kinda dumb (explains all the notes ive got). However, wouldn't you agree that it is possible that Lucy and Nyuu were put back together?
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Old 2007-11-26, 23:14   Link #1976
gaguri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FateAnomaly
Actually my point is the anime itself is somewhat illogical. Given their knowledge of her abilities, all they had to do is to use exploding rounds, gas, water and anything that she cannot block easily. Unless she have enough vectors to cover her whole body, she wouldn't survive.

Since it is illogical, anything goes. I can say she blocked all bullets except the one that hit her remaining horn. I think it makes a happier ending if she did survive. With both horns gone, hopefully Lucy will be gone too (still sad but much safer).

Although i think they still have to file the last bit of horn still protruding, ouch!
To me, this is much more sensible way of looking at the anime. Elfen Lied from the beginning was very loose with what you'd expect from a realistic anime, so who really gives if some things doesn't make sense. My comments weren't directed at you or other fans who are more than willing to forgive the anime for, well, just being anime. I just find it hilarious that some people need to make up such moronic scenarios to somehow justify such cases in a realistic manner, no matter how unrealistic they are.

The reason why I think Lucy is dead has more to do with the fact that, I think it fits her character and the story so far better for Lucy to die than coming back alive. The shooting scene, which to me pretty much killed her off for good, shows that she went there to die for her previous sins (and because she thinks its safer for Kouta as well). That's why I don't like the idea of her coming back alive and saying 'hi i'm back~' behind the door. Obviously people can see this in different ways and I don't have a problem with that.

@Arthas
No need to thank me for anything...you didn't do anything wrong in the first place.

I don't agree that it is possible for Lucy and Nyu to be put back together, because from how I see the anime, that can not happen after Lucy/nyu dies in a sacrificial act. However, if that's how you see it, I don't see why you should change that simply because I disagree. Just please don't say because it was realistic ^_^b
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Old 2007-11-26, 23:29   Link #1977
Arthas1011
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HAHAHAHA!!! Im just saying that if there can be 2 personalities created then in theory they can be put back together. One of those things-that-should-not-happen moments in anime
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Old 2007-11-27, 08:18   Link #1978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
I had an impression that you were going for lucy/nyu/whatever all died as one.
Slow, aren't you?

@FateAnomaly...

Lucy definately DIDN'T use her vecters to block the bullets... there's a reason it showed them in the air, out of the way. And she even said "finish it." She simply stood there and let them shoot her.
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Old 2007-11-27, 08:46   Link #1979
PastPrime
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Originally Posted by gaguri View Post
To me, this is much more sensible way of looking at the anime. Elfen Lied from the beginning was very loose with what you'd expect from a realistic anime, so who really gives if some things doesn't make sense. My comments weren't directed at you or other fans who are more than willing to forgive the anime for, well, just being anime. I just find it hilarious that some people need to make up such moronic scenarios to somehow justify such cases in a realistic manner, no matter how unrealistic they are.

The reason why I think Lucy is dead has more to do with the fact that, I think it fits her character and the story so far better for Lucy to die than coming back alive. The shooting scene, which to me pretty much killed her off for good, shows that she went there to die for her previous sins (and because she thinks its safer for Kouta as well). That's why I don't like the idea of her coming back alive and saying 'hi i'm back~' behind the door. Obviously people can see this in different ways and I don't have a problem with that.

@Arthas
No need to thank me for anything...you didn't do anything wrong in the first place.

I don't agree that it is possible for Lucy and Nyu to be put back together, because from how I see the anime, that can not happen after Lucy/nyu dies in a sacrificial act. However, if that's how you see it, I don't see why you should change that simply because I disagree. Just please don't say because it was realistic ^_^b
I had no problem with your thinking that Lucy died, and would never have replied to a post stating that. The ending was made ambiguos to support both possibilities. And opinions have been compared to a part of the body in that everyone has one. My problem comes from your attempt, based on all the expertise you gained watching Rambo movies, to label everyone who choses to believe differently as somehow being fools or morons. That only proves that you, also, could be compared to that part of the body.
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Old 2007-11-27, 09:36   Link #1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reno
Slow, aren't you?
Never mind, I got confused from trying to correct your misinterpretation of the previous post. I also agree that she never used vector to block the bullets. Her intention of going there in the first place was to die, so it makes little sense if she suddenly changed her mind. It was a subtle, but a crystal clear scene that left no room for much ambiguity (unless you are, of course, arguing with nothing to back up anything except that wildy inventive and delusional thoughts conjured up from neverland).
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