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Old 2009-02-25, 21:11   Link #2021
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
You should stick to Heisig's method. If you are hardcore enough, you can learn the writing and meaning of 2042 kanji just in a month

Back to topic:

大臣って変な顔の人だった。

大臣って: is the reading of this a bit weird....? How do I suppose to read "tte"?

(and could anyone verify if the sentence is valid? )
In a month? What the hell type of magical method is this? As much as I like kanji and love Japanese, I wouldn't be able to dedicate myself to that level of hardcoreness.

You read the small "tsu" with a bit of a pause. Or rather, I think it’s taught as a "skip" in the beat of the pronunciation. You pronounce the sound before, skip a beat, and then move to the next sound. I hope that made sense.

Edit: Oh, I forgot your last question. Yeah it works.
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Old 2009-02-25, 21:16   Link #2022
Raiga
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EDIT: I'm a slow typer. v_v response to iLney.

Ah yeah, I wondered about that for a while. For one thing, the "double consonant" in romanization is what's called a geminate consonant. It's best if you just train your ear to hear what this sounds like, since it's hard to describe. You just sort of stop on the consonant briefly, give it extra emphasis... sort of.

って is the "casual quoting particle" according to nihongoresources.com. Basically whatever was said before the って is put in quotation marks.

A couple questions on typing in Japanese... how do you get the small つ without having to actually type a double consonant, and how do you get the katakana vowel extender? Using Windows default Japanese typing doohickey.

Speaking of which today I found out that characters in Chinese and Kanji that overlap (well, simplified that is... in unsimplified that's practically everything) are recognized the same by Unicode, which is awesome since I can now look up Kanji that I don't know but which are Chinese words I know.
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Old 2009-02-25, 21:25   Link #2023
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
In this case though, the って is not being used as quotation marks. Hmm...how to explain it...I think it's just the short hand of という人(何か)は. But saying that may not help very much.

"xtu" just worked for small tsu. And for that I just use the hyphen.
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Old 2009-02-25, 21:36   Link #2024
iLney
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Ah, thank.

So it's like:

<something> <pause> <te> ?

BTW, 1 month is for real hardcore (I tried going for 100-150 kanji a day, and after like 5 days, my head was like "oh crap." But you don't have to do that 10/ day is a reasonable pace, and after 3 months you have them all. People usually do 25/day though. And that what I did after winter break.

I case you're interested, this site will greatly boost your studying with Heisig's method http://kanji.koohii.com/

Here is an example of how the method works:

架: erect
口: mouth, opening
力: power
木: tree

Image: powerful mouth makes tree erect. I never see that character anywhere but I always remember it

@Raiga: I use the built-in package of Window: you type "tsu" then <space>. The tsu should become chibi
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Old 2009-02-25, 21:42   Link #2025
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
In this case though, the って is not being used as quotation marks. Hmm...how to explain it...I think it's just the short hand of という人(何か)は. But saying that may not help very much.

"xtu" just worked for small tsu. And for that I just use the hyphen.
Well "person called x" (that is what that means, right?) does sorta lie along the same lines as a quotation... in that it puts sort of a level of separation between the words and the speaker, er, if you see what I'm saying... I mean I get that it's not just English quotation marks, obviously, but... sort of in that general area of meaning.

っ oh cool it worked. Speaking of which is there a way to type-- MY LANGUAGE BAR LIVES! Okay now the buttons are responding. So there's the option for typing in Katakana... now to hunt down how to set the keyboard shortcut...

EDIT: My buttons promptly died again after I made this post.
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Old 2009-02-25, 21:50   Link #2026
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
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Umm...yeah, for the most part. Without hearing you try and do it, it's kind of hard to know if the explanation worked or not. Try and find examples in anime or some other vocal thing, and listen to it so you can get the hang of it.

In the beginning I was studying a certain amount per day, but then as I got further along I got lazy and stopped studying it as much. Not good, not good. Eventually I’ll start back up (definitely if I’m not at 2000 by the time I go back to Japan) to study for Ikkyuu of the kanji ken. That’s one of my “before I die” goals.

Edit: Haha, you seem to be having a lot of trouble there Raiga. I'm not sure about it. In a way I guess it kind of is, but then again not really. Cause it's used sometimes when you're talking directly to someone (i.e. ライガってさ。。。)and to consider that a quotation usage seems odd, but at the same time maybe it makes a little sense. I don't know. I don't know how to explain rules very well.
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Old 2009-02-25, 21:58   Link #2027
Raiga
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Oh yeah, the って I've heard very often in anime, especially when characters are repeating what other characters said (sort of a "__, you say?" sense... sort of). One thing I remember off the top of my head though, that's sort of more like the sentence iLney posted, is “人っていったい何ですか?” Which you could still represent in English as "What exactly is a 'person'?" with the quotes... that's kinda why I was thinking that however it's used it's got some sort of relation to the "quoting" idea. I dunno, maybe there's a wacky use I don't know about but I find it convenient to think of it that way.

(why do I say "sort of" so much...)

Man I wish I could get motivated on Kanji... I keep saying, oh it's not that bad since I've had practice with Chinese, I'll get around to it... except I never do.
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Old 2009-02-25, 22:20   Link #2028
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
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Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
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I don't want to hear complaining about kanji from someone with a Chinese background.

The two examples you gave are more like the quotation marks. The first one, in fact, is basically being used as quotations. Although if they’re repeating what someone else said, they’ll usually be using Datte.
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Old 2009-02-25, 22:23   Link #2029
Raiga
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Heh, okay, not complaining about kanji, just lamenting my own laziness. :P
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Old 2009-02-25, 22:47   Link #2030
iLney
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横田:風邪で開いたんだろう.

かぜであいたんだろう

"It's probably the wind."

I first thought it was an expression when the wind opens a window or so. But 風邪 is a common cold...

So... is the translation correct?
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Old 2009-02-25, 23:03   Link #2031
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Heh, okay, not complaining about kanji, just lamenting my own laziness. :P
よろしい


That's odd. I've never seen wind written like that, usually it's only the first kanji, and then when you have both it's a cold. But the sentence wouldn't make any sense if we were talking about a cold so it must be the wind. But then as for translation:

"It was probably opened by the wind."
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Old 2009-02-26, 09:31   Link #2032
Kinny Riddle
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信じられない、日本語能力試験2級合格しました!!!

I think I'll go celebrate, and then prepare for the hell that is Level 1. I think I'll skip the opportunity to take the July one and be better prepared for the December one.
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Old 2009-02-26, 09:34   Link #2033
nikorai
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Quote:
Speaking of which today I found out that characters in Chinese and Kanji that overlap (well, simplified that is... in unsimplified that's practically everything) are recognized the same by Unicode, which is awesome since I can now look up Kanji that I don't know but which are Chinese words I know.
Oh, that is really great indeed. I use the same feature the other way round. That is, when I come across Chinese texts I just type in Japanese or use ‘tegaki’ feature in IME to get the characters. Works great.

Quote:
So it's like:
<something> <pause> <te> ?
Yep, that’s it.

Well, I can't come up an example with 't' but you can try the words like bookcase and hip pocket to get double k and p.
The effect is something like that with t as well. Actually, Russian is full of double consonants so the question never came to mind. Looked natural to me.
Like, the problem could be with english where you shouldn't use this rule to make pauses before consonants.

Quote:
A couple questions on typing in Japanese... how do you get the small つ without having to actually type a double consonant, and how do you get the katakana vowel extender? Using Windows default Japanese typing doohickey.
Katakata vovel is simply a dash (-). But it’s called 長音.
Quote:
@Raiga: I use the built-in package of Window: you type "tsu" then <space>. The tsu should become chibi
Ah, you mean the conversion. But this method is slow. You just type l+tsu to get chibi tsu. You can also try the same combination to get small a-i-u-e-o, ya-yu-yo.
Actually it would be best to get a japanese keyboard to use kana input. I have a vitrual keyboard on my handheld but never came to get hardware for pc. Typing kana directly is actually twice faster than romaji. Plus you get small kana by just pressing shift+key.
Also you have separate keys for 'nigori' (aka 濁点・半濁点)

Ryuou
Wrote lots of stuff on your wall in the meantime. If not you, I still hope to find a person to translate video for me.

Update:

Kinny Riddleさん

試験合格おめでとうございます!良かったです。
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-02-26 at 09:43. Reason: update
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Old 2009-02-26, 15:22   Link #2034
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
信じられない、日本語能力試験2級合格しました!!!
I can't type Japanese on this computer so, Omedetou!!! But I'm actually surprised it was 2kyuu that you just passed. I would've thought you'd already passed 1kkyuu since I've seen your name in relation with novel translations for years now.

@ nikorai - Waruina, I noticed that but I haven't read through it yet. I'll look at it tonight when I get back to my house.
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Old 2009-02-26, 16:55   Link #2035
Raiga
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Random thought that's kinda been bugging me.

What's the difference between "ashita" and "asu?" Aren't they both written 明日? Is there any way to tell which way to read it?
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Old 2009-02-26, 17:21   Link #2036
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
The force will guide you.
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Old 2009-02-26, 18:04   Link #2037
nikorai
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Ryuou
Thanks for your reply to my message in the board. Really appreciated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
The force will guide you.
Yeah, for 明日 you get あした・あす・みょうにち.

In anime songs I heard asu in place of ashita because ashita just won't fit sometimes (too long). And as far as I know reading 'on-yomi' makes the speech more formal. Speaking of formalities, you often have to substitute some words for others. Like, 'today the shop is closed' would be something like 本日閉店いたしました。
「本日」は「今日」の代わりに使われています。いたす(敬語)=する。
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Old 2009-02-27, 11:47   Link #2038
iLney
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Thank for your help.

Well, maybe it's a mistake....

Or someone uses that combination just for the sound.

風: Wind

邪: wicked

Is it possible that 風邪 is used to convey a creepy kind of atmosphere or such?
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Old 2009-02-27, 18:15   Link #2039
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Thank for your help.

Well, maybe it's a mistake....

Or someone uses that combination just for the sound.

風: Wind

邪: wicked

Is it possible that 風邪 is used to convey a creepy kind of atmosphere or such?
Nah, it just literally means 'cold' xD
風邪 【かぜ】 (n) cold (illness), common cold, (P)

Perhaps the origin was to signify 'an ill (as in unfortunate) wind', if i have to be poetic some
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Old 2009-02-27, 23:32   Link #2040
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Don't remember where I read this but I think whoever said this got it right when they said Japanese grammar is not so much difficult as different.
Indeed. Excellent observation. The grammar simply does the same thing in a different way. However, the difficulty behind language lies not in understanding and learning the meaning, but being able to master it intuitively. Meaning is conceived from a combination of basic elements, such as phonology or syntax, which combine to illustrate advanced concepts that would otherwise be impossible to communicate (unless you're capable of mind speech).

Because the inherent understanding of the same concepts is different, the brain must be taught to understand from a different perspective. And that's where the difficulty comes in. I also know plenty of people capable of mastering a language to a certain level, before anything further becomes difficult because the expression of advanced concepts can shift after a further, in-depth study of a language.

Quote:
Splicing concepts you thought were the same thing, combining concepts you thought were different, seeing distinctions that you never noticed before... things like shifting most of the heavy lifting in a sentence onto the verb, things like speaking using a person's name instead of "you," or just not saying anything and letting the subject of "you" be implied, etc...
I'm curious. What do you mean by this statement?

If you think about it, there are situations in Japanese name the object and a particle, but no verb, where as in English we have the verb in most situations while the object is lopped off (like when we're speaking with urgency and don't complete our sentences). However, if you're referring to the agglutinative nature of verb conjugation in Japanese, verbs aren't the only ones that do "heavy lifting." The meaning is far more squished together than we are used to in English, though.

Quote:
And Japanese is especially stimulating because unlike with Latin, you can't just plug in formulaic translations for each word, rearrange the word order a bit, and get a coherent sentence.
Latin is also a dead language in the modern world. When it was passed on by the Church, it was diluted by developments in Europe at certain times. It's not exactly the exact version of the language when it was still attached to a culture, during which I'm sure the language saw its eccentricities.

Also, don't forget that Japanese has also been influenced as a language by philosophical concepts foreign to Westerners. Anything that permeates a culture is capable of changing the language, especially if concepts or ideas have to be expressed in new ways. Thus, a concept we find foreign might be expressed very clearly without the same need for elaboration or the same method of description.

Quote:
When English speakers are asked to pronounce a consonant they usually tack on a breathy "-uh" sound on the end, like "tuh," or "kuh," but they're not just saying the consonant sound. With a... what did Wikipedia call it? Stop consonant? In any case you can't pronounce just the consonant. So when you come down to it, each of the kana is really just one sound and should be thought of and treated as such, despite the deceptive way romaji renders it. The consonant is more a starting position for your mouth. Like I said, n/m/ng is the exception, since it's nasal... s is also arguable, since you can just hiss without a vowel sound at the end... anyway are you bored yet?)
Consonants and vowels CAN be separated, even in Japanese; the reason for the "uh" sound at the end in English is because those not familiar with phonetics will not realize that the air after the creation of the consonant serves no purpose, and won't cut off the air to form the pure consonant. This creates a sound at the end, mostly because of the nature of how we as a culture interpret sounds with certain variables.

Be careful when you're analyzing languages, because phonetics and phonology play a distinctly separate roll at a conceptual level, but must often be considered together in practice or when dissecting real languages. There is a bit of truth to how concepts are viewed differently phonologically between English and Japanese, but phonemes must be distinguished from the mora (or syllables) that are represented by hiragana/katakana.

I myself have little experience with linguistics (even though I realize this was a relatively long rant), but I do have an interest in the field much like yourself. You're an incredibly bright person and it's commendable that you're learning so much on your own.

Finally, if I have any holes in my reasoning, please tell me.
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