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Old 2009-04-06, 07:21   Link #2241
ganbaru
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Join Date: Dec 2007
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About the obligation form:
Is it true than the construction using ''naranai'' is for obligaton from outside and the construction using ''ikenai'' is for obligation set from who talk ?
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Old 2009-04-06, 08:25   Link #2242
alamarco
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Location: Canada
What's the best method of learning Japanese? Is it learning Kanji first? Hiragana? Katakana? Romanji? What order should one go in when learning the Japanese language? There are so many books out there, but I haven't seen any that specify an order. Just books specifically for each.

I apologize if this was asked before, but there's 113 pages so hard to sort through.
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Old 2009-04-06, 09:27   Link #2243
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ganbaru View Post
About the obligation form:
Is it true than the construction using ''naranai'' is for obligaton from outside and the construction using ''ikenai'' is for obligation set from who talk ?
According to A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar (Makino & Tsutsui, 1986), both formations carry essentially the same meaning, though certain constructions can only take one and not the other. In other words:

1. しなければ/しなくては(ならないいけない
(Either "naranai" or "ikenai" can be used.)

2. しないと(ならないいけない
(Only "ikenai" can be used.)

3. せねば(ならないいけない
(Only "naranai" can be used, although in this old-fashioned construction, you might also see "naranu" or "naran" as variants.)
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Old 2009-04-06, 09:32   Link #2244
Circular Logic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
What's the best method of learning Japanese? Is it learning Kanji first? Hiragana? Katakana? Romanji? What order should one go in when learning the Japanese language? There are so many books out there, but I haven't seen any that specify an order. Just books specifically for each.

I apologize if this was asked before, but there's 113 pages so hard to sort through.
I advise learning hiragana and katakana way before anything else. I used Minna no Nihongo to teach myself, and I found it very good, though they used a little too much furigana for my liking. I'd just work through a textbook (I hear genki's reasonable too) and periodically review what you've done (along with reinforcing by listening to Japanese).

In terms of kanji study I generally think that it's better to pick up things as you go rather than sit down and learn kanji specifically, especially in the early days - you generally get to recognise kanji and remember readings simply by passively reading them.

To be honest, I think kana books are a bit of a waste of time. If you just google image search 'hiragana table' or 'katakana table', and just copy down the characters 9999 times and test yourself frequently, you can learn them reasonably quickly.
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Old 2009-04-06, 14:33   Link #2245
alamarco
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Thank-you for the tips. As long as the textbooks are decent I can generally work through them. I have no motivation to test myself, but if I have a book or guideline to follow, than the job gets done.
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Old 2009-04-06, 20:09   Link #2246
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alamarco View Post
What's the best method of learning Japanese? Is it learning Kanji first? Hiragana? Katakana? Romanji? What order should one go in when learning the Japanese language? There are so many books out there, but I haven't seen any that specify an order. Just books specifically for each.

I apologize if this was asked before, but there's 113 pages so hard to sort through.
Learn hiragana, then katakana, then kanji.

If possible, avoid romaji. It should be a stepping stone to helping you while you memorise kana, but as soon as you begin to get comfy with the characters, discard it.

That's my two pence
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Old 2009-04-07, 01:45   Link #2247
Alchemist007
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Aaah I keep confusing myself. When do you use "de aru?"
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Old 2009-04-07, 02:05   Link #2248
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Aaah I keep confusing myself. When do you use "de aru?"
Formal writing, mostly. It's the un-contracted form of "da". There is one place you're more likely to use it in speech, in the form "X de aru Y", where noun Y is the same thing as noun X, e.g.:

人間であるもの
Those who are human (i.e. anyone who considers him/herself human)

鳥山明の代表作である『ドラゴンボール』
Akira Toriyama's representative work, which is Dragon Ball

彼が天才であることを疑わないけど、証拠を見せてほしい。
I don't doubt the fact that he is a genius, but I want to see some proof.
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Old 2009-04-07, 09:10   Link #2249
alamarco
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@Mystique: Thanks for the tips. Seems like the consensus is Hiragana, Katakana than Kanji. Good to know both people suggested the same thing .
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Old 2009-04-07, 13:22   Link #2250
iLney
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Thx Mystique and everyone

Next...

だんだんあたたかくなって来ました。

Redundant much? 2 same verbs...
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Old 2009-04-07, 16:19   Link #2251
bungmonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Thx Mystique and everyone

Next...

だんだんあたたかくなって来ました。

Redundant much? 2 same verbs...
2 same verbs? なって来た gives a more a more gradual or over time feeling than just なった. The だんだん in there further emphasizes it.
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Old 2009-04-07, 17:07   Link #2252
iLney
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Not くなって?....

And

緑: お母さん、 お元気
智子:ええ、お蔭様で。 父も元気よ。
=> Yes....

???
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Old 2009-04-07, 17:34   Link #2253
Circular Logic
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ええ is yes, much like はい and うん.

Little less formal than はい, gives (me at least) a slightly more formal feel than うん.
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Old 2009-04-07, 18:48   Link #2254
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Next...

だんだんあたたかくなって来ました。

Redundant much? 2 same verbs...
You could leave it as なる (naru), but it's saying
'It's become warm.
In that case the 'dan dan' wouldn't be used.
Dandan is an adverb meaning 'gradually' or 'by degrees' - so it already points out and defines an indication of time.
The 'natte+kita' supports that.
The kuru aspect gives the nuance of something changing over an extended period of time, so the sentence can literally be read as:
"Bit by bit, it has become warmer over a long period of time."
(be it days, or months...)
I guess the english word be+come, could reflect the nuance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
緑: お母さん、 お元気
智子:ええ、お蔭様で。 父も元気よ。
=> Yes....

???
As circular said, it's another way of saying 'yes'.
This is a linguistic quirk that I love about the Japanese language. Utterances and particles used that instantly define a person's age, gender, attitude, emotion.
ええ, is a soft, feminine sound typically reserved for middle aged women, mothers or young women in formal work situations. It's less 'harsher' than 'hai', and thus it has this 'flowery, soft' feel to it.

Typically it may end with 'wa', yet another convention to indicate a soft, gentle female. Those typically are used for women aged 30+ or so tho I've noticed. You may notice this often from MILF in anime, Lust from the new FMA series kinda slips into this category too.

There's a current generation issue with females now adhering to more masucline utteranes and particles (well guys get all the cool sounds, lol) as a reflection of young females being more 'rough' and tomboyish. It's an interesting cultual aspect to observe though.
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Old 2009-04-07, 21:16   Link #2255
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy View Post
Also, both どっち (casual) and どちら (more formal) are derived from the classical どち, which is in turn derived from the even older form いづち (い being an old fashioned interrogative prefix, づ a connecting particle with rendaku, and ち meaning "place").
This deserves a little

@ iLney - Are you good on the explanation for 先生に怒られます? I never got around to finishing my explanation.
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Old 2009-04-07, 21:45   Link #2256
iLney
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Thank alot, guys and gals

@Mystique: just like you said "don't learn it, feel it" huh?

@Ryuou: no... well, I've just learned it by heart since then
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Old 2009-04-08, 02:21   Link #2257
Alchemist007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy View Post
Formal writing, mostly. It's the un-contracted form of "da". There is one place you're more likely to use it in speech, in the form "X de aru Y", where noun Y is the same thing as noun X, e.g.:

人間であるもの
Those who are human (i.e. anyone who considers him/herself human)

鳥山明の代表作である『ドラゴンボール』
Akira Toriyama's representative work, which is Dragon Ball

彼が天才であることを疑わないけど、証拠を見せてほしい。
I don't doubt the fact that he is a genius, but I want to see some proof.
Thanks, I remember learning it only very briefly.
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Old 2009-04-08, 13:20   Link #2258
iLney
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Join Date: Aug 2008
岡田:今日行く。
黒田:私行かないわ。

How do you translate this?

I first thought:

Let's go today.
I won't go.

But then:
おかた:きょういく。
くろだ:しこうかないわ。



So 私行 is a word...
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:22   Link #2259
Circular Logic
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It isn't しこう, it's わたし いかない

私行かない is collquial for 私は行かない, with the topic marker omitted. Japanese often omits particles, especially in spoken forms.

So it's 'I'm not going.'
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Old 2009-04-08, 14:31   Link #2260
iLney
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But 私行 is also a word. When I put the sentence (with the kanji) on google => I'll go

BUT if I omit わ from 私行かないわ, it'll become "Not me"

There must be a wicked logic behind this. Right?....
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