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Old 2009-04-21, 12:26   Link #2301
Kitsu
The unlucky one
 
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I have just a quick question.
I often read the difference between the different dialects and accents in Japanese are a lot bigger then in English and such.
Just how big is it?
I'll travel to Osaka and as far I know they speak Kansai-dialect. Will I be able to understand them? In Germany we have also different dialects and such and some people (not me) can't understand them properly. I mean in the end I always have English as a resort, but...
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Old 2009-04-21, 18:17   Link #2302
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kitsu View Post
I have just a quick question.
I often read the difference between the different dialects and accents in Japanese are a lot bigger then in English and such.
Just how big is it?
I'll travel to Osaka and as far I know they speak Kansai-dialect. Will I be able to understand them? In Germany we have also different dialects and such and some people (not me) can't understand them properly. I mean in the end I always have English as a resort, but...
Well depends on who you talk to.
If its generic tourist shop keepers, tourist boards, JR staff and people see that you're a foreigner, than they'll all most likely try to adhere to standard Japanese for you.
If you speak to the locals in small shops, listen carefully on the buses or trains, then you may catch the blatant differences.
But for having travelled around the country, I spoke with the Japanese I know (tokyo), they can see I'm a foreigner and so are courteous enough to keep their japanese clear for me asking simple things like
'where do you come from? How long you been in japan' etc.
Osaka is the second biggest city in the country, so I'm sure they're well aware of tourists needing basic, simple Japanese from them anyways.
So you should be fine.

PS: There is a 'japanese culture' or 'travelling to japan' thread about as well, if u want anymore 'holiday' like or culture questions
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Old 2009-04-22, 20:02   Link #2303
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Next:

砂糖を入れましたか?

First off, I don't study grammar .... Is that sentence in past tense? If so, why is it translated into "Do you take sugar?" ("Did" wouldn't make much sense either)

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Well, the sentence looks like a waiter asking if his customer wants to add sugar in something? "Did" wouldn't make sense here... Or is it a polite way to put it?
The use here is past tense. If you wanted a waiter to ask in current tense if they want to add sugar, something like - 砂糖を入れましょうか?or 砂糖をお入れしましょうか?Hmm...is it just me or does the second one seem a bit off? In both of these it would be the waiter doing the action.
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Old 2009-04-23, 00:01   Link #2304
Yu Ominae
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Coquitlam, BC, Canada/Quezon City, Philippines
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Been studying Japanese in 2005 in a community college before I stopped to concentrate on graduating.

2007, I entered my uni (SFU for you Canadians, specifically BC people) and had wondered about resuming Japanese. Did so in 2009 and had finished it today, had a massive semi-epic fail. Well... that's with the parts of my final exams that I'm sure I answered correctly despite the contrary. Also my first time to write a composition. I got a bad grade for having bad vocab comprehension.

Which reminds me, I got two Genki books by "mistake" as I thought the sensei who was suppose to teach my class would use it. Turns out not to be the case. I'll keep it and read up to improve my Japanese. Will now pray to get a C- instead of a D, the latter will seriously mess up my GPA.

PS - The books are Genki I, workbook and the regular one.

PPS - To those who might wonder what I like about Japan, favorite things to tinker around are the government, esp. the JSDF, anime/manga and recently, the use of non-Japanese made cars in Japan.

よろしく!
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Old 2009-04-23, 11:43   Link #2305
iLney
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Thank Ryuou

友達を六本木へ行っ、食事をして、映画を見ました。

I thought it should be て form?

食べからトイレに行きます。

Should I use た here instead?
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Old 2009-04-23, 12:22   Link #2306
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Thank Ryuou

友達を六本木へ行っ、食事をして、映画を見ました。

I thought it should be て form?

食べからトイレに行きます。

Should I use た here instead?
You're welcome.

First one: That probably should be form. Also the "wo" should be "to".

Second one: No, no . If you wanted to use "ta" then you'd need to change "kara" to "ato". So it'd be 食べたあとトイレに行きます。 They both mean the same thing though. After you do the verb, you do something else.
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Old 2009-04-23, 12:35   Link #2307
iLney
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Thank you.

Hmm, weird. I saw "ta" followed by "kara" many times...

And would please tell me why it should be "to" instead of "o"?
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Old 2009-04-23, 12:48   Link #2308
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
"takara"?...you sure it wasn't "dakara"?

Because "wo" is for objects, the thing that something is being done to. You can't go somebody, you go with ("to") somebody. If the verb was take along/with (連れる) then it could be "wo".
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Old 2009-04-23, 12:57   Link #2309
iLney
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"da" ye

Somebody? I thought it was "I went to rokhonki, ate lunch and watched a movie

Edit: and 今日は = kyo wa of konichiwa?
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Old 2009-04-23, 15:32   Link #2310
Yu Ominae
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Yep. That's kyowa.

Can't believe I messed that up in the test.
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Old 2009-04-23, 16:14   Link #2311
Circular Logic
土は幻に
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It's both kyou ha and konnnichi ha.
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Old 2009-04-23, 19:31   Link #2312
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
"da" ye

Somebody? I thought it was "I went to rokhonki, ate lunch and watched a movie

Edit: and 今日は = kyo wa of konichiwa?
"I"? What about your good friend "友達"?

If it has a period after it than it's konnichiwa.
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Old 2009-04-23, 23:45   Link #2313
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
I have a question about kanji. Supposedly there are only 1945 kanji that are officially used for japanese writing, that is the jōyō kanji list. Now what i expected is that with the exception of proper names i would only find those 1945 kanji in internet, documents and such.

However while looking for the kanji of "yami" (darkness) to my dismay i noticed it wasn't listed under the jōyō kanji. What the hell? It is a word that is frequently used in fantasy games and anime. "kurayami", "yami no sho" "yami no shoujo", are just some examples. So i thought that maybe it's just written in hiragana, to check that i searched for "kurayami" "暗闇" on google and i found 3,8M results... O_o;;;

Now i don't think this is the only exception, but seriously... do i need to learn all the nearly 6 thousands kanji to fully understand even simply internet texts? What is the jōyō kanji list for then?
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Old 2009-04-24, 00:29   Link #2314
iLney
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Uhm, you only need to learn about like 3500. Based on what I've seen, many of the kanjis outside the say, 3000 range, are just old writing of the latter group

@ryu: my bad, I forgot about "Friend" . Still, that sentence can refer to just that "friend." I still don't see why "to" should be there instead
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Old 2009-04-24, 00:35   Link #2315
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Join Date: May 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
I have a question about kanji. Supposedly there are only 1945 kanji that are officially used for japanese writing, that is the jōyō kanji list. Now what i expected is that with the exception of proper names i would only find those 1945 kanji in internet, documents and such.

However while looking for the kanji of "yami" (darkness) to my dismay i noticed it wasn't listed under the jōyō kanji. What the hell? It is a word that is frequently used in fantasy games and anime. "kurayami", "yami no sho" "yami no shoujo", are just some examples. So i thought that maybe it's just written in hiragana, to check that i searched for "kurayami" "暗闇" on google and i found 3,8M results... O_o;;;

Now i don't think this is the only exception, but seriously... do i need to learn all the nearly 6 thousands kanji to fully understand even simply internet texts? What is the jōyō kanji list for then?
To teach the kids of Japan the basic 2000 kanji needed for them to get by in everyday life as they get older, that's what it's for.
By no means does it mean that they cannot pick up many other kanji in their lives, if a child's bright, they may even want to look up and research more kanji than what is simply taught in school.

Remember:
Kanji = vocabulary + literacy

And that level depends and varies from person to person, just as it does in English.
(I believe on average we know 40,000 daily use words, or something like that, but I believe that's what students of english have to try to achieve to be fairly compentant)
Anyways:
Quote:
2009: The list is expected to be revised to include an additional 191 characters and remove 5 characters [1]. As of 16 Jan 2009, the list of 191 additional charaters can be seen here: [2]
As it is, they're taking 5 out and adding an additional 200 or so, now, so it will total a little over 2000.
Guess someone decided it's time for a mini update

PS:
Oh and good news, "yami" is in that new 191 list
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Old 2009-04-24, 00:56   Link #2316
iLney
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Join Date: Aug 2008
Uhm, is it just me or many of the "new" 191 chars look strangely familiar...

Edit: err, nvm. I studies 2045 not 1945
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Old 2009-04-24, 01:00   Link #2317
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
English has over 600,000 words (depending on who counts) yet the *average* speaker knows barely 10,000 words and may use less than 5000 words in daily speech or writing.

So that may give you some sense of scale when attacking the kanji
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Old 2009-04-24, 02:12   Link #2318
Jan-Poo
別にいいけど
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
Quote:
o teach the kids of Japan the basic 2000 kanji needed for them to get by in everyday life as they get older, that's what it's for.
I thought it was more than that considering there's a list of extra Kanji that can be used for names. Why is there a constant request of adding more of them? Isn't it because they actually can't use those Kanji otherwise?

Quote:
Oh and good news, "yami" is in that new 191 list
Ah good! XD then i hope there are only 190 or so kanji that are so frequently used outside the jōyō

PS: on second thought that ridiculus amount of pages i found could have been chinese for the vast majority...

EDIT

Quote:
English has over 600,000 words (depending on who counts) yet the *average* speaker knows barely 10,000 words and may use less than 5000 words in daily speech or writing.

So that may give you some sense of scale when attacking the kanji
Well... that's not a fair comparison. Kanji are not exactly "words", for the most part words are composed by two kanji. 6000^2 = 36.000.000. you get the general idea that to make 600.000 words you don't really need 6000 Kanji.
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Old 2009-04-24, 02:19   Link #2319
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
English has over 600,000 words (depending on who counts) yet the *average* speaker knows barely 10,000 words and may use less than 5000 words in daily speech or writing.

So that may give you some sense of scale when attacking the kanji
10k?
You're differentiating by 30k, am I really that off in terms of our lexicon count as natives?
Quote:
Today, more than 750 million people use the English language. An average educated person knows about 20,000 words and uses about 2,000 words in a week.
Reading and comparing a few more articles, I gain a sense of 10,000-20,000 words on average, but yeah... it seems to still be fairly... low? xD
(It's like we only use 5% of what is available...)
Quote:
Grade 1 Student = 1,000+ words

Normal Person (Graduate) = 5,000 to 6,000+ words

University Professor = 15,000+ words

Spelling Bee Winners = 30,000+ (as claimed by them)

College Dictionary (Abridged) = 50,000 - 70,000

Total Words in English Language = 250,000+ (Growing)

Dictionary (Un-abridged) with derivatives = 450,000+
If one was to count the total words in a dictionary, I guess we really do use a lot less. xD

But as Vexx mentioned, using English as an example, we cannot bash about kanji too much in terms of count.
3,000+ sounds horrible, I guess because its 3,000 characters rather than 3,000 words that I can sense the doom and gloom (trust me, I hate being illiterate in Japanese)
But a person can get by on the basic 2,000 alone.
The countless combinations of all 2,000 kanji make up about what...? 10,000 vocabulary words a person could know. (If JLPT lvl 1 is anything to go by)
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-04-24 at 02:34.
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Old 2009-04-24, 02:43   Link #2320
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 57
A brief jaunt to the shopping mall and listening to conversations may make you think the average person knows less than a thousand words of English and mangles half of those (in the US at least :P ).

But yeah, as Mystique says I was basically just saying that 2000 kanji isn't as awful as it sounds - especially once you get the hang of the roots and such. In English, I can usually parse out a new word I haven't seen by knowing the latin, norse, anglo, or germanic roots (very rough approximation to seeing a new word made of kanji one recognizes ... VERY rough).

Of course, this is from someone who seems to be hung at about 200 kanji (without lunging for the kanji book) because I keep getting derailed by Real Life or other distractions, like Animesuki, meh.

Last edited by Vexx; 2009-04-24 at 04:34.
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