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Old 2009-04-24, 02:45   Link #2321
Jan-Poo
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
2000 kanji sounds reasonable enough to me... 6000 not so much...
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Old 2009-04-24, 05:19   Link #2322
Circular Logic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
But as Vexx mentioned, using English as an example, we cannot bash about kanji too much in terms of count.
3,000+ sounds horrible, I guess because its 3,000 characters rather than 3,000 words that I can sense the doom and gloom (trust me, I hate being illiterate in Japanese)
To be fair, a good proportion of the 2000-3000 range of kanji one picks up quite easily, since they're often really common in names, or ridiculously simple ones which haven't been put in by some odd bureaucratic edict (乙、串、and 韓 all come to mind). Well, at least they'll be updating the Joyo kanji lists soon...
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Old 2009-04-24, 06:03   Link #2323
Doraneko
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Somehow I think the joyo list bears little meaning to Japanese learners and no one should stress too much about it, unless they are teachers or tutors in Japanese primary/secondary schools.

When I started learning English, I had completely zero idea on how many words are needed for daily usage. Even though I have been learning the language for 20+ years (and probably have acquired more than the common 10k words), I am still learning everyday through reading and daily usage. There is simply no end to learning a language: you are a learner before you know the 2000 kanji, and you are still merely a learner after getting pass that point.

Indeed, the increasing popularity of kanji tests, games, books and exercises among Japanese working adults shows that it is nothing more than a joke to think that the secondary-level 2000 is all you need for your whole life.

Therefore, instead of treating kanji like a separated, dedicated subject, it may be better to treat it like intonation, spelling and etc - stuff which are prevalent in every single phrase that you have to swallow before moving to the next phrase. You remember a word as word, a phrase as a phrase, but not as a bunch of kanjis. Follow the curriculum of your choice and pick up kanji on the way. After that, continue picking up new words through extensive reading.

If you are dedicated enough, you will easily go pass the 2000 point without even realizing it, as the 2000 kanjis simply cannot cover many of the slightly harder readings. You are not learning Japanese just for reading secondary-school level Japanese textbooks, are you ?
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Old 2009-04-24, 06:12   Link #2324
Jan-Poo
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Location: forever lost inside a logic error
but the problem is in the case of english or other languages when i encounter a new word i usually can guess its meaning because it's composite of other words or because i know the etymology, i can also pretty much guess the pronounce. In the case of a new kanji, you can guess its meaning (looking at the compounds and the context) but how can you guess the pronounce?

Actually one of the main problem i have is understanding how kanji are pronounced in a certain context. I recognize the kanji, i know their meaning, i can also guess the word they are forming, but unless i find that very same word in a dictionary i don't know which "yomi" should i pick.
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Old 2009-04-25, 11:43   Link #2325
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
@ryu: my bad, I forgot about "Friend" . Still, that sentence can refer to just that "friend." I still don't see why "to" should be there instead
Hmm...write out for me in Japanese, "I go to the park with my friend".
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Old 2009-04-25, 16:11   Link #2326
iLney
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友達と公園に行きます。

Is this correct? (yay, 1st handmade sentence )
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Old 2009-04-25, 17:51   Link #2327
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
友達と公園に行きます。

Is this correct? (yay, 1st handmade sentence )
Yep, looks correct.

In this case,
I go to the park with my friend.
と = with
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Old 2009-04-25, 19:55   Link #2328
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
友達と公園に行きます。

Is this correct? (yay, 1st handmade sentence )
Yes, and congrats.

So how come you don't think the other sentence should use "to"?
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Old 2009-04-25, 20:20   Link #2329
iLney
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@Mystique and Ryuou: THx (BTW, is it neutral?)

友達を六本木へ行った、食事をして、映画を見ました。

Well, I can still read it as "My friend went to ropponki, ate a meal and and watched a movie. (BTW, if I don't know a verb I can always use "suru" right? "Do my teeh, do my dinner, do my books, do my TV....?)

And when to use jin, nin and hito? It's so confusing...
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Old 2009-04-25, 20:45   Link #2330
Ryuou
進む道は武士道のみ
 
 
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Location: Dying to get back to Japan (but currently near Chicago)
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
@Mystique and Ryuou: THx (BTW, is it neutral?)

友達を六本木へ行った、食事をして、映画を見ました。

Well, I can still read it as "My friend went to ropponki, ate a meal and and watched a movie. (BTW, if I don't know a verb I can always use "suru" right? "Do my teeh, do my dinner, do my books, do my TV....?)

And when to use jin, nin and hito? It's so confusing...
Neutral?

Oh okay, I see how you're reading it now. In that case, you'd have to change the "wo" to one of the subject particles "wa/ga". Either case, it's not "wo".

You can add "suru" to a wide variety of words, but not any word. They have to be the right verb words that'll accept "suru". Like “benkyou” (study). I don’t want to say this as a definite, but you pretty much can’t add it to nouns unless they also have an action meaning like ski.

Well, there's really no difference in the use between those three since it's the same kanji, but the reading will be different depending on the use. (Sorry if that's what you meant) Umm...I'm not too sure on clear cut rules to give you on this. I guess in general, when you're trying to use the word "person" it's “hito”. When you're counting people it's “nin”. When it comes to reading kanji it's all three.
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Old 2009-04-25, 21:12   Link #2331
iLney
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Neutral = the way it is said in reality.

Coz I've met sentence like: 明日公園で歌う、僕. (is it right? Just write it from memory...I'm not sure about "de" though).

About "jin." I've seen something like お腹がいっぱいので必ずデザートを食べた人 (jin???). I thought it were "hito" (is that sentence correct, it's from my bad memory so...)

Lastly.... why not "wo" again? "eat meal" and "see a movie"
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Old 2009-04-25, 21:38   Link #2332
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Lastly.... why not "wo" again? "eat meal" and "see a movie"
But you're not "going" your friend. Your friend is going.

Also shouldn't the 行く be in て-form too?
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Old 2009-04-25, 22:51   Link #2333
iLney
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Ah... I see now

I thought you guys were talking about the "wo" of "食事をして、映画を見ました." I didn't see the first "wo"

Thank you

BTW, is "お腹がいっぱいので必ずデザートを食べた人" correct? and 人 reads "jin" there?...
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Old 2009-04-25, 23:01   Link #2334
LeoXiao
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a little off-topic but does anyone know why Japanese takes "らりるれろ" and turns them into ra, re, ru, and so on when in romaji? From hearing the actual sounds, it seems WAY more like "L" to me than "R." This thing has annoyed me for a long time when reading romaji, so much that I've wanted to yell "NO! IT'S PRONOUNCED LIKE AN L, NOT R!!!"
Does anyone know why they use R instead of L?
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Old 2009-04-25, 23:17   Link #2335
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
a little off-topic but does anyone know why Japanese takes "らりるれろ" and turns them into ra, re, ru, and so on when in romaji? From hearing the actual sounds, it seems WAY more like "L" to me than "R." This thing has annoyed me for a long time when reading romaji, so much that I've wanted to yell "NO! IT'S PRONOUNCED LIKE AN L, NOT R!!!"
Does anyone know why they use R instead of L?
Really? I always hear "rondon" for years if i do say so myself

The sound isn't quite L...
nor is it as strong as an R in english (unless you're a angry yakuza person in which the r's just roll and vibrate in waves) xD
てめら、殺してあげるぜ~~
Love those kinda accents

- But I digress, methinks the sounds do side more to R than L though.
There is a proper way to place your tongue to get the sound which lies inbetween, but even now, I can barely grasp it somedays.
I just try to soften my R's when I speak and lean towards an L as an attempt to match it and hope for a happy middle.
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Old 2009-04-25, 23:20   Link #2336
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
a little off-topic but does anyone know why Japanese takes "らりるれろ" and turns them into ra, re, ru, and so on when in romaji? From hearing the actual sounds, it seems WAY more like "L" to me than "R." This thing has annoyed me for a long time when reading romaji, so much that I've wanted to yell "NO! IT'S PRONOUNCED LIKE AN L, NOT R!!!"
Does anyone know why they use R instead of L?
Because it's neither and they had to use something. Romaji isn't really Japanese either, just the best English approximation, so don't worry about it too much. And the pronunciation tends to vary between "l," "r," and sort of "d"-ish, depending on what word is being said.

EDIT: I'ma slow typer =( @Mystique, heh, I tend to do the same thing when pronouncing those kana. :P I also find that for りゃ、りゅ、りょ it's easier to pronounce it more like an "l."

I've got my own question... since a good deal of words seem to have the same meaning and reading but different Kanji, what's the difference in using them? Is it something subtle? Like why would I use 云う instead of 言う?
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Old 2009-04-25, 23:41   Link #2337
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
I've got my own question... since a good deal of words seem to have the same meaning and reading but different Kanji, what's the difference in using them? Is it something subtle? Like why would I use 云う instead of 言う?
It is something subtle and a royal pain in the ass.
You can see that kinda thing mainly in songs, for "poetic aesthetics" they toss in freaking obselete kanji for the same word to make it look pretty -.-

So much so that furigana is needed most days, lol.
I had to have a native explain some of those differences to me as the songs were on the TV screen and I'd bitch about why they can't use the 'normal' kanji.

Something like 'au'

逢う 【あう】 (v5u) to meet (with drama or pathos), (P)
遭う 【あう】 (v5u) to meet, to encounter (undesirable nuance), (P)
会う 【あう】 (v5u) to meet, to interview, (P)

All mean to 'meet someone' - but the situation and circumstance of how people 'meet' is specified by the kanji.
The one i bolded is your everyday, typical 'au'

Another common one in songs is 'hana'
花 【はな】 (n) flower, petal, (P)
華 【はな】 (n) flower, petal, (P)
- The latter being more elegant than the former.

Not sure how 伝う、is similar to 言う
伝う 【つたう】 (v5u) to go along, to walk along, to follow, (P)

The meanings seem different. In the case of 伝える however...
言う、(いう) is to simply 'say'
伝える、(つたえる) is to 'convey' - typically used when passing a message verbally to someone.
"Tell Jane I said hi!" - would be 伝える

My bad with my earlier explaination though, i thought you were asking about the same word but different uses in kanji
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Last edited by Mystique; 2009-04-25 at 23:52.
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Old 2009-04-26, 00:03   Link #2338
Raiga
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Ah, thanks for the explanation (saw the example I gave in song lyrics, in fact, as you mentioned). Although I was asking about "云う," not "伝う" with the radical on the side... and about its difference with "言う."
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Old 2009-04-26, 00:27   Link #2339
Doughnuts
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
BTW, is "お腹がいっぱいので必ずデザートを食べた人" correct? and 人 reads "jin" there?...
ひと。

This is the kinda phrase again where the whole verb clause is describing a person. じん is a noun suffix and shouldn't be alone like that.
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Old 2009-04-26, 01:09   Link #2340
Mystique
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Ah, thanks for the explanation (saw the example I gave in song lyrics, in fact, as you mentioned). Although I was asking about "云う," not "伝う" with the radical on the side... and about its difference with "言う."
><;;;;;;
warui, my bad, lol.
Compleeeeeeetely missed the difference with the radical x.x
(gotta love kanji)

Was wondering why it was so off and all... :\

謂う 【いう】 (v5u) is referred to as .., is called ..
云う 【いう】 (v5u) to say
言う 【いう】 (v5u) to say, (P)

In the case for the nuances for those 3, I'll leave it for another Japanophile to explain correctly then
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