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Old 2009-05-01, 19:00   Link #2361
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
aah i finally understand the frequent "yatte miro!"

but how would a good translation be?

"let's give it a try!

or

"try it!"
hmm...
I still wouldn't say its a 'forcing' nuance to the te+miru grammar. To try anything doesn't really give a feeling of forcing someone to do something.
miru -> miro(u) - would just be a change to the volitional form, which typically does mean 'let's do this' or 'Shall' (A sugesstion)

Ikimashou (Ikou)
Tabemashou (taberou)
Suru (Shiyou)

Depending on the context in which yattemirou was said, it could be translated in a few ways nuance wise, but 'let's do it!' - wouldn't be wrong.
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Old 2009-05-01, 22:20   Link #2362
Jan-Poo
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Uhm i see thanx for the explanation ^^

I have another question 'though
I've studied the usage of "morau" and "moraou" but there are still some situations where i don't really get their meaning.

For example:

"Misete moraou" it express a will (in imperative form) to make someone show something.

however what about:

"Misete moraou ka" why the question? How does it match with strong imperative request? I don't quite get it ^^;
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Old 2009-05-02, 02:13   Link #2363
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Uhm i see thanx for the explanation ^^

I have another question 'though
I've studied the usage of "morau" and "moraou" but there are still some situations where i don't really get their meaning.

For example:

"Misete moraou" it express a will (in imperative form) to make someone show something.

however what about:

"Misete moraou ka" why the question? How does it match with strong imperative request? I don't quite get it ^^;
ka = ?
Asking a "question" in the japanese language, sometimes softens the request. It's just one of those things in order to 'not to be rude or straight forward'.
To translate could be:

(How about) you show me.
with the 'ka' it could be 'Could you show me?'
Kinda nuance...

Same request, slightly different in tone.
'misete' on it's own would be slightly stronger imo.
Speaking of 'morau', what I will ask from an advanced student or native to clarify as a good grammar point is the difference between:

morau and kureru.

okashi wo tsukutta kureta.
okashi wo tsukutta moratta.


"ageru" is when you offer to do something for someone, but yeah, those two evil bastards...
There's a difference between the particle used, who the subject is and the feeling behind the sentence but 3 years later, I still cannot get this round my head completely.
I kinda, semi, get it on feeling, but there are justifyable explainations.
Was wondering if someone wouldn't mind clearly explaining the differences between the nuance of 'receiving' for the thread.
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Old 2009-05-02, 05:14   Link #2364
Nagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
ka = ?
Asking a "question" in the japanese language, sometimes softens the request. It's just one of those things in order to 'not to be rude or straight forward'.
To translate could be:

(How about) you show me.
with the 'ka' it could be 'Could you show me?'
Kinda nuance...

Same request, slightly different in tone.
'misete' on it's own would be slightly stronger imo.
Speaking of 'morau', what I will ask from an advanced student or native to clarify as a good grammar point is the difference between:

morau and kureru.

okashi wo tsukutta kureta.
okashi wo tsukutta moratta.


"ageru" is when you offer to do something for someone, but yeah, those two evil bastards...
There's a difference between the particle used, who the subject is and the feeling behind the sentence but 3 years later, I still cannot get this round my head completely.
I kinda, semi, get it on feeling, but there are justifyable explainations.
Was wondering if someone wouldn't mind clearly explaining the differences between the nuance of 'receiving' for the thread.
1. A ga okashi wo tsukutte kureta (kudasatta/kudasaimashita for polite).
2. (watashi ga/wa) A ni okashi wo tsukutte moratta (itadaita/itadakimashita for polite).

As you said there's difference in usage (particle, subject,...)

The 2nd sentence emphasizes the speaker as the subject. I somehow get a feeling that A did it because the speaker requested him to do so, but this is not always the case. Itadaku is a kenjougo (謙譲語/humble form) for morau.So it's like "I had A make cookies for me."

In the first sentence A is the subject, emphasizing A's action. we don't really know whether A did it because of request from speaker or not. kudasaru is a sonkeigo (尊敬語/honorific form) for kureru. So it's like this: "A made cookies for me."
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Old 2009-05-02, 19:00   Link #2365
Ryuou
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
hmm...
I still wouldn't say its a 'forcing' nuance to the te+miru grammar. To try anything doesn't really give a feeling of forcing someone to do something.
miru -> miro(u) - would just be a change to the volitional form, which typically does mean 'let's do this' or 'Shall' (A sugesstion)

Ikimashou (Ikou)
Tabemashou (taberou)
Suru (Shiyou)

Depending on the context in which yattemirou was said, it could be translated in a few ways nuance wise, but 'let's do it!' - wouldn't be wrong.
I think you got your conjugations a bit mixed up Mystique. It should be “miyou” instead of “mirou”. “Miru” isn't a go-dan verb or whatever that thing is called. So “miro” is the command form (stronger one) for it so it would have the forcing sense he's talking about. Also "taberou" -> "tabeyou".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
For example:

"Misete moraou" it express a will (in imperative form) to make someone show something.

however what about:

"Misete moraou ka" why the question? How does it match with strong imperative request? I don't quite get it ^^;
Pretty much what Mystique said, but also, there'll be times where adding that "ka" makes it sarcastic. It would depend on the situation.
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Old 2009-05-03, 00:11   Link #2366
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryuou View Post
I think you got your conjugations a bit mixed up Mystique. It should be “miyou” instead of “mirou”. “Miru” isn't a go-dan verb or whatever that thing is called. So “miro” is the command form (stronger one) for it so it would have the forcing sense he's talking about. Also "taberou" -> "tabeyou".
I screwed up on the group 2 verbs huh? xD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanes...ons#Volitional
Although I'm surprised they have no group 2 examples in there.
but group two =
stem + you = volitional (group 2)
tabeyou
Thanks for the check
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Old 2009-05-03, 22:46   Link #2367
iLney
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When to use "もの" and "こと?"

Both mean "things"
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Old 2009-05-03, 22:49   Link #2368
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
When to use "もの" and "こと?"

Both mean "things"
もの = 物 = physical things.
こと = 事 = conceptual things.

... in a nutshell, at least.
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Old 2009-05-04, 00:30   Link #2369
iLney
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Thx but....: あなたに必要なものは勇気である ?
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Old 2009-05-04, 10:47   Link #2370
ukiuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Thx but....: あなたに必要なものは勇気である ?

you can use either もの or こと for this sentence.
i guess that もの is you carry/ ability that you need to learn.
and こと is you make it happen in this case.
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Old 2009-05-05, 15:37   Link #2371
fanty
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"こんあ俺だが受け入れてくれるか?"

^how exactly does "but" fit into this sentence? I just don't get it...
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Old 2009-05-05, 15:50   Link #2372
ukiuki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
"こんあ俺だが受け入れてくれるか?"

^how exactly does "but" fit into this sentence? I just don't get it...
first of all that sentence must be こんな俺だがうけいれてくれるか?
this is sound like bad person asking to join some group that I assumed
it might be
"can you accept me but I am not that good "



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Old 2009-05-05, 16:03   Link #2373
fanty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ukiuki View Post
first of all that sentence must be こんな俺だがうけいれてくれるか?
this is sound like bad person asking to join some group that I assumed
it might be
"can you accept me but I am not that good "
""こんあ" was a typo on my part (oops) but are you sure about "受け入れ"? A Japanese person wrote it like that (though I guess Japanese people make mistakes too) and the word is in rikaichan's dictionary...

(thanks btw!)
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Old 2009-05-05, 16:30   Link #2374
Circular Logic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yFANTgirl View Post
""こんあ" was a typo on my part (oops) but are you sure about "受け入れ"? A Japanese person wrote it like that (though I guess Japanese people make mistakes too) and the word is in rikaichan's dictionary...

(thanks btw!)
受け入れて is the same as うけいれて, just with kanji.
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:05   Link #2375
iLney
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誰と誰が熱心?

誰と誰 = who?

Then is also valid for " doko to doko" "nani to nani" "dou to dou" etc...?
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Old 2009-05-06, 17:46   Link #2376
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
誰と誰が熱心?

誰と誰 = who?

Then is also valid for " doko to doko" "nani to nani" "dou to dou" etc...?
Rather it's saying:
"who and who are passionate?"
Most likely trying to point out 2 people as examples.

So taking that in mind, you tell me.
Where and where
What and what
How and how

Do you think it can be applied and in what sense?
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Old 2009-05-06, 18:25   Link #2377
iLney
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Uhm....

The translation for "誰と誰が熱心?" was "Who's enthusiastic?" with a "<plain>" remark next to it? I can't find "誰と誰" in the dictionary though...

BTW

お姉さんと話したいんですが
=>I'd like to talk to you. (=Older sister)

I can read it as "I want to talk to your sister" too right?...
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Old 2009-05-06, 19:24   Link #2378
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
BTW

お姉さんと話したいんですが
=>I'd like to talk to you. (=Older sister)

I can read it as "I want to talk to your sister" too right?...
You can, but in english
I want is much stronger (more rude) than 'I'd like' - and seeing as it ends in 'desu ga' - it's a slightly softer nuance to the request, so it was probably interpreted with a similar softer nuance in english.
Quote:
Uhm....

The translation for "誰と誰が熱心?" was "Who's enthusiastic?" with a "<plain>" remark next to it? I can't find "誰と誰" in the dictionary though...
Hence I asked you a question rather in my last post; I wanted you to think about it a little instead of always coming for instant Q&A.

This is my personal opnion may I add, just from hearing how 誰と誰 has been used in context from natives when I talk with them.
誰と誰, as I said before usually is used when trying to point out/specify 2 people (probably from a group) rather than a general 'who is enthusiastic'
otherwise:
誰が熱心? - would be more than enough to ask imo.

The と particle is the clue there, in this case it gives the nuance of 'and' for me, so if i hear that, I assume they're looking for more than 1 specific example.

Some of the others will jump in here later to confirm or dispell my reasoning if you want more answers.
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Old 2009-05-07, 20:45   Link #2379
iLney
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Thanks, Mystique I guess I was too occupied by the translation.

武田:来週の週末、 暇?
富田: うん、暇だけど

In this case, there is a bit reluctance in the answer right. Does it mean 富田 doesn't really want to accept any possible invitation from 武田? (The translation is "Yes, I am"
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Old 2009-05-07, 22:01   Link #2380
Ryuou
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The "dakedo" here isn't really reluctance on the part of 富田, but more like "I am, but why do ask?" It's curiosity on his/her part to know why the other person is asking.
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