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Old 2009-07-20, 10:19   Link #2521
nikorai
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mendokusa
Quote:
other example,
{地面(dimenn)に}雪(yuki)が積もる。
the ground is covered with snow.
Interesting. So, the literal translation would be
"The snow piles up on (some ground)" for 'tsumoru' example.
And "the desk is buried under the dust" for "umaru" example (there should be really lots of dust).

Quote:
勝手に人ん家上がりこんでんじゃねĖよ
Oh, that looks like one of those verb compounds (agaru+komu), one of the difficult points in Japanese. It's something that I'm still missing.

Speaking of grammar points. I received a package from Tokyo (an order with Amazon.jp) where among other things I got 3 books -



- 中上級を教える人のための日本語文法ハンドブック [単行本]
庵 功雄, et al

- 日本語文型辞典 [単行本(ソフトカバー)]
グループジャマシイ

- 完全マスター2級 日本語能力試験文法問題対策 [ペーパーバック]

The contents seem to be understandable but I still miss a lot of kanji to read the books freely. The dictionary and the exam guide come with furigana which makes things a bit easier.
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Old 2009-07-20, 11:01   Link #2522
mendokusa
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best is,can read kanji and can know meaning of kanji.
next,can know meaning of kanji,because can't read,but can understand writing.
difficult kanji,also japanese can't read,but know the meaning of that.

maybe kind of chinese kanji is more than 10000,but Almost one kanji have one pattern of reading.
kind of japanese kanji is about 6000(normally 1945),but one kanji have some pattern of reading.

音onn訓kunn
”音読み”reading made in china.
”訓読み”reading made in japan.
same china,but when come to japan?
so,there is many reading pattern.
just a little there are different meaning of same kanji in japan and china.

by the way, everybady,
Don't work too hard.
let's a little everyday.
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Old 2009-07-20, 11:55   Link #2523
nikorai
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mendokusaさん

説明ありがとうございます。
全部分かりました。
でも、日本語で話したほうがいいのではないでしょうか。どう思いますか?

Quote:
just a little there are different meaning of same kanji in japan and china.
その通りですね。時々、言語によって漢字の意味が違います。たとえば、中国語で「手紙」という漢字は「トイ レットペーパー」の意味があります。また、「馬上」という言葉は日本語で「直ぐ」ということを意味します。 (馬が速く走れますから。)

Quote:
Don't work too hard.
はい、そうします。でも、練習が少ないから、日本語をすぐ忘れちゃいます。
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Old 2009-07-20, 12:55   Link #2524
Miko Miko
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Is this correct?

Eng: Are you lying to me?
Jap: 私に嘘をついていますか?
Rom: watashi ni uso wo tsuite imasu ka?

Just want to know if the Japanese and Romanization are correct. I can't read kanji so I wouldn't know and I am not familiar with ALL the hiragana yet.
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Old 2009-07-20, 12:55   Link #2525
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
this change easy to understand it.
勝手に人の家に上がりこんでいるんじゃないよ
this "こん" isn't "来るkuru",becouse "来る"should change "来て(kite)"then.
so,this "こん" is "込むkomu",and "込む"should change "込みで(komide)"then.
but "込みで" is not easy to speak.
”上がりこみで”→(撥音便hatsuonnbinn)"上がりこんで"

"~でいるんじゃないよ”→”~でるんじゃないよ”→”でんじゃないよ”
when someone already have entered.

勝手に人ん家上がってんじゃねーよ。
when someone is entering just now.

”ないよ”→”ねーよ”
So the ko is not of 来: to came but of 込: to crowd
and the こんでん is short for こんでいるん

But the meaning of the sentence as I gave earlier... does it change or will it remain as it is?

And this changes in speech are the short versions...
"~でいるんじゃないよ”→”~でるんじゃないよ”→ ”でんじゃないよ” → when already entered

and

"上がって"んじゃね agatte part will be there when event is happening (so the sentence will be come "don't just enter into somebody's home without permission) lol...doen't sound different in english now does it...?

I hope I got that right?

And what about that konaide sentence is that verbally correct?
勝手に人の家上がって"こないで". [Event happening since agatte part is there]

I mean with what you just explained it look wrong...

can you tell me more about what is this "撥音便 (hatsuonnbinn)" i'm not that familiar with it

Arigatou Mendokusa-san

Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-20 at 13:12.
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Old 2009-07-20, 13:22   Link #2526
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko Miko View Post
Is this correct?

Eng: Are you lying to me?
Jap: 私に嘘をついていますか?
Rom: watashi ni uso wo tsuite imasu ka?

Just want to know if the Japanese and Romanization are correct. I can't read kanji so I wouldn't know and I am not familiar with ALL the hiragana yet.
looks correct to me...but then again I am basic learner

sound more like
"are you telling me a lie?"

watashini uso wo tsuiteimasu ka?

Also i guess

私に嘘吐いてんのか?
watashi ni usotsuitennoka?
[Edit: so as mendokusa san said を part gets curt of in informal]

will be informal I guess...

Expert on Japnese please clear our doubts....

Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-20 at 18:27.
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Old 2009-07-20, 14:28   Link #2527
Miko Miko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miko Miko View Post
Is this correct?

Eng: Are you lying to me?
Jap: 私に嘘をついていますか?
Rom: watashi ni uso wo tsuite imasu ka?

Just want to know if the Japanese and Romanization are correct. I can't read kanji so I wouldn't know and I am not familiar with ALL the hiragana yet.
Anyone going to reply yet?

Sorry no patience. *hits self on head*
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Old 2009-07-20, 15:16   Link #2528
nikorai
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Miko Miko
Quote:
Anyone going to reply yet?

Sorry no patience. *hits self on head*
sonotme_9FedriqSama-san has replied to you above.
The sentence about lying looks perfect to me from the grammar point of view. But then again, I'm not an expert. mendokusaさん is.
By the way, learning kana takes 2 days (as it was in case with me) but everything else takes years to learn even a basic idea about, let alone use it in speech freely.
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Old 2009-07-20, 15:28   Link #2529
Bou
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Quote:
Eng: Are you lying to me?
Jap: 私に嘘をついていますか?
Rom: watashi ni uso wo tsuite imasu ka?
I am not 100% good at Japanese but I do believe that translates exactly.
I am intermediate if i not good enough i am sorry Miko Miko

Quote:
sound more like
"are you telling me a lie?"
watashini uso wo tsuiteimasu ka?
Its basically the same, only the words are altered a little.
are you telling me a lie? = watashi ni uso wo iteiru?
are you lying to me? = watashi ni uso wo tsuite imasu ka?
Pretty much the same. Not much of different sentence structure.




btw I am still revising but how many kanji are there? Was it 2000?
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Old 2009-07-20, 15:42   Link #2530
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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I suck at kanji....since I started learning japanese by myself and am still doing it...I just randomly look at words...I can identify basic kanjis, like kita: come, nani: what, jibun: myself...but most mangas have hiragana written beside them so...i can just interpret the meaning of the sentence by looking kanji's of word in dictionary...and if i come across the same kanji once or twice I am able to remember it and what it means...so basically i am not learning kanji specifically...I pick up as I go...slowly

this is a website wihich give kanji learning by grade...try llearning according to it...

Spoiler:
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Old 2009-07-20, 16:27   Link #2531
nikorai
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sonotme_9FedriqSama
These kanji look familiar to me. Does that mean I'm as good as a Japanese middle schooler?
Actually, I don't specifically learn kanji either. Once it was time when I used a textbook for the beginners. There were lists of words in each unit but also a list of kanji. There were around 20-30 new kanji in each unit listed separately. And about 40 units in total in 2 volumes of the textbook.
Now I'm using a textbook for intermediate level. In each unit there are 50-100 new words with kanji and reading and you just memorize the words. And since I don't practice kanji I can't really write them. Except for the easy ones. Last year I switched completely to using my PC but that's very bad for writing skills even if it's much more convenient.

I'm translating articles from G's magazine at the moment. If I bump into new words I first try to guess on-yomi. if nothing helps I have to use IME handwriting tool ( 漢字を知らなかったら、手書きツールを使うしかない。)

mendokusaさん
I'm not sure if it's appropriate to ask. I've been translating iDOLM@STER bonus DVD from Xbox 360 game. I did all the script (typed Japanese) but there are many points where I didn't make out words (難しいところに赤で印を付きました). I have the video, too(ビデオもアップロードしました). The script is 70 pages long. 日本語のスクリプトは70ページの長さです。間違いだらけです。 ちょっと見てもらえませんか 。
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-07-20 at 16:44.
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Old 2009-07-20, 18:13   Link #2532
mendokusa
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Quote:
Eng: Are you lying to me?
Jap: 私に嘘をついていますか?
Rom: watashi ni uso wo tsuite imasu ka?
can translate some patterns
あなたは私に嘘usoを吐tsuいていますか?
あなたは私を欺azamuいていますか?
あなたは私をだましていますか?
these's same meaning.
私に嘘吐tsuいてんのか
when angry or informal.


I'm sorry to other people.
have no time now,I will come here this night.
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Old 2009-07-20, 18:42   Link #2533
lixuelai
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嘘 used in the polite form sounds wierd lol.
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Old 2009-07-21, 00:24   Link #2534
Raiga
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This is more of a random observation than anything else, but I was taking a stab at song lyrics just now and let me say 凸凹 is officially the coolest Kanji compound I've ever seen.
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Old 2009-07-21, 04:49   Link #2535
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im a frustrated japanese ^^


i want to learn some ^^
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tofu any one??

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Old 2009-07-21, 07:03   Link #2536
mendokusa
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Quote:
私に嘘をついていますか?
addition,
私 read watashi and watakushi.

Quote:
(1)勝手に人ん家に上がりこんでんじゃないよ。
(2)勝手に人ん家に上がってんじゃないよ。
when someone entered my room,I say (1)or(2).
when someone will be entering from my house's door,I say (2).
(1) enter deeper than (2).

込koむ・・・into,include

家に上がる・・・stand on house's fooler

when the sentence is used,just enter into somebody's home without permission.
but the sentence don't include the meaning of "without permission".


上がって来koないで is right.

音便onnbinn
change about verb
4 kind of onnbinn
イ音便・・・・・・・・・巻maきて(巻く)→巻いて
無音便mu・・・・・・・・話hanaして(話す)→話して
撥音便hatsu・・・・・・踏huみて(踏む)→踏んで
促音便soku・・・・・・・打uつて(打つ)→打って
hatsu is んnn
soku is っxtsu

First
verb of onnbinn change ~anai
巻かない、話さない、踏まない、打たない
Next
what is one letter before "anai"?
k or g →~いてor~いで
s→~して
m→~んで
t→~って

exception
行iく→行いて→行って
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Old 2009-07-21, 07:28   Link #2537
mendokusa
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Quote:
"are you telling me a lie?"
just translate,
あなたは私に嘘を言っていますか?

that sentence can use in japan.
but Normally japanese use
あなたは私に嘘をついていますか?


you say "I'm male",and you tell me lie.
あなたは「私は男です」と言って、嘘をつく。

like the sentence,often used with "say".
あなたは「私は男です」と言って、嘘を言う
not easy to understand it.


to nikorai
If I can help you,do that.

A bit I play iDOLM@STER with PSP.


to Raiga
Can you read that?
(1)凸凹
(2)凹凸

Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-21 at 07:39.
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Old 2009-07-21, 11:30   Link #2538
nikorai
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mendokusaさん
Quote:
If I can help you,do that.

A bit I play iDOLM@STER with PSP.
Are you going to help me for real? That would be awesome. Thank you very much.
Speaking of im@s, I thought to get a Japanese xbox 360 (order by post) but still can't find a suitable moment to do that.


The video
http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/7fe7no
And the script for it (it was very difficult for me to type. Itís 70 pages long)
http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/rihwm2

Anime video:
http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/unkyx1

Also I have the script for the anime -
http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/fboavu

There was one line that I didnít understand. I repeatedly listened to it for 8 hours straight but it left me puzzled.
13.44
This is all I could manage to get:
「苦労をかけないでよね」

The resulting subtitles should look like this (with very nice karaoke effects):
http://www.sendspace.com/pro/dl/bg7lpz
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Old 2009-07-21, 11:35   Link #2539
lixuelai
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
This is more of a random observation than anything else, but I was taking a stab at song lyrics just now and let me say 凸凹 is officially the coolest Kanji compound I've ever seen.
They mean exactly what you would think they mean too. It is the same in Chinese as well.
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Old 2009-07-21, 12:20   Link #2540
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lixuelai View Post
They mean exactly what you would think they mean too. It is the same in Chinese as well.
Yah I remember them from Chinese, only I forget how to pronounce the second one *heads to unihan to check* oh yeah wa1 or ao1. I never properly learned how to write the weird shaped ones. :\ But fun examples of characters looking just like what they mean, and they look so funny next to each other. XD

@mendokusa: I knew how they were read written as 凸凹 (from the song) but looking it up again I didn't notice the second reading, and it looks like written as 凹凸 there's only one reading. Well, I know them all now. Dekoboko is still my favorite though. It sounds... cute. Dekoboko. Dekoboko.

Hm, looks like the modern Chinese tu sound came into Japanese as とつ... both in this case with 凸 (which is tu1 in Chinese) and 突然 (which is tu1ran2 in Chinese). I'll file that away in my memory of common Chinese/Japanese sound parallels.
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