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Old 2009-07-21, 12:24   Link #2541
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post

(1)勝手に人ん家に上がりこんでんじゃないよ。
(2)勝手に人ん家に上がってんじゃないよ。

when someone entered my room,I say (1)or(2).
when someone will be entering from my house's door,I say (2).
(1) enter deeper than (2).

込koむ・・・into,include

家に上がる・・・stand on house's fooler

when the sentence is used,just enter into somebody's home without permission.
but the sentence don't include the meaning of "without permission".


上がって来koないで is right.

音便onnbinn
change about verb
4 kind of onnbinn
イ音便・・・・・・・・・巻maきて(巻く)→巻いて
無音便mu・・・・・・・・話hanaして(話す)→話して
撥音便hatsu・・・・・・踏huみて(踏む)→踏んで
促音便soku・・・・・・・打uつて(打つ)→打って
hatsu is んnn
soku is っxtsu

First
verb of onnbinn change ~anai
巻かない、話さない、踏まない、打たない
Next
what is one letter before "anai"?
k or g →~いてor~いで
s→~して
m→~んで
t→~って

exception
行iく→行いて→行って
Komapsumida mendokusa-san...

So basically when the person has already steped inside the house (1) is the likely way to say... (2) while on door enterence...I think I got that...

I really didn't know about these "change about verb"....but I was able to understand the verbal sentences properly...its when reading I'm getting like

有り難う once again mendokusa-san ~
(ok how should I say that in jap: hutatabiarigatou 再び有り難う ???... am I right?)

when the sentence is used,just enter into somebody's home without permission.
but the sentence don't include the meaning of "without permission".....so it'll be...

"don't just enter into somebody's home as you please"

Any special reason that 行く doesn't changes...is it because it can be confused with 生(i)き???



Quote:
Originally Posted by lixuelai View Post
They mean exactly what you would think they mean too. It is the same in Chinese as well.
....dekoboko, outotsu?...what are they said in chinese?
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Old 2009-07-21, 14:08   Link #2542
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sonotme_9FedriqSama
Quote:
(ok how should I say that in jap: hutatabiarigatou 再び有り難う ???... am I right?)
Yes, that works perfectly.
Or you can say あらためて、[説明]ありがとうございます。

Indeed, I didn't know about the whole 音便 thing. In my textbook, the verb change was explained using a table. It was basically said that 'japanese verbs are like that. Learn the pattern". But there was nothing about the phonetic change and terminology (i/mu/hatsu/soku). Maybe I should start reading about grammar in Japanese after all. Because it looks like I miss a lot of things here.
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Old 2009-07-21, 18:09   Link #2543
mendokusa
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toRaiga
(2)is outotu.

凸totuレンズconvex lens
凹ouレンズconcave lens

tosonotme_9FedriqSama


生きる→生きないikinai
行く →行かないikanai
include "nai"like ikinai and ikanai,
"ki"and "ka" before "n" are "?a",so do Onnbinn.
生きるis "ki",so don't onnbinn.生きてis right.
行くis "ka",so do onnbinn.
いいて
not easy to say
いいて→いって


without permission
許可なしで、断らないで
but when the sentence say,often without permission,so don't include the sentence.


addition for onnbinn,

there is ウ音便 in 大阪弁
~ワナイ(買わない)
買いて→買うて(koute for歴史的仮名遣い)

in Tokyo
not easy to say
買いて→買って
normal japanese is 買って
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Old 2009-07-22, 01:39   Link #2544
RandomGuy
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Just to clarify a couple of things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Hm, looks like the modern Chinese tu sound came into Japanese as とつ... both in this case with 凸 (which is tu1 in Chinese) and 突然 (which is tu1ran2 in Chinese). I'll file that away in my memory of common Chinese/Japanese sound parallels.
the つ in the Japanese on'yomi is actually representative of a lost final-consonant, t, in Middle Chinese. Based in part on old rhyme dictionaries, the pronunciation of 凸 has been reconstructed as *dwot and 突 as *t(h)wot during the middle of the first millennium A.D., when Chinese writing first reached Japan in comprehensive fashion. Since Japanese is a moraic language that originally lacked any standalone consonants (including ん), the syllable つ (though not the kana, since it didn't exist yet) was used to represent the final consonant instead.

On a different note, let me attempt to clarify mendokusa's explanation: Onbin (音便, "euphony") is a way of illustrating the sound changes that caused verbs whose root ends in a consonant to go from having four stems (yodan) to five (godan). It's useful to learners of Japanese in order to explain the irregularities in an otherwise highly regular verb paradigm. As mendokusa mentioned, there are four types in Standard Japanese (and five in Kansai-ben), which dictate transformations to the adverbial stem (ren'youkei) when followed by the verb suffix -て and its derivatives (in the modern language, just -たり, -たら and -た).
  • I-type shift (イ音便, i-onbin): K- and G-class yodan verbs lose the /k/ sound entirely, creating a stem ending in -/i/ rather than -/ki/. G-class verbs also transfer the voicing of the now-absent /g/ over to て. Thus ききて (from 聞く) becomes きいて, かきて (from 書く) becomes かいて, とぎて (from 研ぐ) becomes といで, etc. (行く alone underwent the geminate shift instead, and is thus slightly irregular in the modern language.)
  • No change (無音便, muonbin): As the name suggests, for S-stem yodan verbs there is no change. かして (from 貸す), おして (from 押す), along with all others of their type, remain the same.
  • Nasal shift (撥音便, hatsuonbin): M-, B-, and N-class yodan verbs lose the /i/ sound in the ending, and the remaining bare consonant assimilates to a syllabic /ɴ/, which in turn converts /t/ to /d/ through prenasalization. Thus よみて (from 読む) becomes よんで, よびて (from 呼ぶ) also becomes よんで, and しにて (from 死ぬ) becomes しんで.
  • Geminate shift (促音便, sokuonbin): T, R, and (in Standard Japanese) W-class yodan verbs lose the /i/ from their ending, and the remaining bare consonant is reanalysed as a doubling of the /t/ that comes after. So, たちて (from 立つ) becomes たって, さりて (from 去る) becomes さって, and (again, in Standard Japanese) かひて (from 買ふ/買う) becomes かって. For some reason, the K-class verb 行く also fits in this category, with Classical ゆきて transforming to modern いって.
  • U-type shift (ウ音便, u-onbin): in Kansai-ben only, W-class yodan verbs shift from the normal adverbial ending /i/, back to the attributive/conclusive ending /u/. Any /au/ sequence resulting from this shifts to /oː/, while /iu/ sequences change to /juː/. This process yields ゆうて from 言う/言ふ (originally いひて), つこうて from 使う/使ふ (originally つかひて), and こうて from 買う/買ふ (originally かひて). However, the verb 会う appears to have undergone the geminate shift (as in the Standard language), becoming あって.

And I think I've managed once again to make a topic more confusing, not less. I need to figure out a way to explain stuff without so much jargon...

Last edited by RandomGuy; 2009-07-22 at 09:26.
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Old 2009-07-22, 08:02   Link #2545
mendokusa
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I'm sorry,lacking,and not easy to understand.

Also,there is ウ音便 on old japanere writing.
三寸ばかりなる人、うつくしうていたり。
(身長が)三寸(9cm)ほどの人が可愛らしい姿でいた。
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Old 2009-07-22, 09:15   Link #2546
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
I'm sorry,lacking,and not easy to understand.

Also,there is ウ音便 on old japanere writing.
三寸ばかりなる人、うつくしうていたり。
(身長が)三寸(9cm)ほどの人が可愛らしい姿でいた。
No, no, I thought it was a useful explanation. Linguistics always has a habit of getting technical really quickly, so partial translations from Japanese are frequently as much help as anything in English. I'm trying to work on explaining things in terms everyone can understand... and not doing that well, I'm afraid.

You have a point about the U-shift in the adverbial form of adjectives, as well; it still survives in phrases with (お)____ございます, such as おはよう (from 早い) and ありがとう (ありがたい). Of course, this particular shift is still seen in Kansai-ben, as well (though it's hard for me to tell exactly how prevalent it still is; people frequently seem to omit the う entirely).
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Old 2009-07-22, 10:26   Link #2547
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandomGuy View Post
the つ in the Japanese on'yomi is actually representative of a lost final-consonant, t, in Middle Chinese. Based in part on old rhyme dictionaries, the pronunciation of 凸 has been reconstructed as *dwot and 突 as *t(h)wot during the middle of the first millennium A.D., when Chinese writing first reached Japan in comprehensive fashion. Since Japanese is a moraic language that originally lacked any standalone consonants (including ん), the syllable つ (though not the kana, since it didn't exist yet) was used to represent the final consonant instead.
Ahh, that's interesting. Yeah I figured it'd have something to do with what Chinese was like at the time it came into Japanese, which is why I specified modern Chinese in my post. Afraid I don't know much at all about ancient Chinese, though, which would probably help... :\
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Old 2009-07-22, 13:34   Link #2548
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Arigatou mendokusa san and Random guy for you help on "onnbinn"...changes....since its a part of regular speech for verb changing....knowing about it was a major help....

@ Random guy....yea m8 u need to cut down some jargons a little ...but u used romanji in brackets before that made it understandable a little...

@ both

I tried doing some onnbinn on similar sounding verbs but totally
failed....do similar sounding verbs go same onnbinn conversions? 
kiku (聞く) --- to listen
kuru (来る) --- to come
kuru (繰る) --- to reel
Kiru (着る) --- to wear
Kiru (切る) --- to cut
Kau (買う) --- to buy

Sorry if I am causing problems for you guys but since verb conjugations is an important part of speech I want to know more from people rather than just hogging all up in my head from internet or books...
I remember better when I ask doubts and someone clarifies it.

聞く -> as "random guy" said it'll be ききて->きいて and with -eru (聞こえる) kikoeru can it go as きこえて-> きこって? 
来る -> as "mendokusa" said きいて->きって can it also get converted to きて...I read it on some website...wanted to make sure
繰る -> ? will this go same as きいて->きって
着る -> ? will this go as きいて->きって can it go as きせて-> きせって? (but this is for 着せる I guess)
切る -> ? will this go as きいて->きって can it go as かるって?
買う -> かいて→ かって as "mendokusa" said
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Old 2009-07-22, 15:34   Link #2549
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sonotme_9FedriqSama
Why do you need to complicate things so badly? I personally had a headache after looking at your examples.

聞こえる(きこえる) is an 'ichidan' verb (下shimo一段活用). The above mentioned onnbinn applies only to godan verbs.
来る(くる) is an irregular verb to begin with, so it becomes 'kite' in this case.
繰る(くる) is on the other hand, a 'godan' verb (五段活用), so the general rule applies. I.e. it's 繰って
 - くって.

着る(きる)- is another ichidan verb (上kami一段活用), same rules apply as with 'kikoeru' (see above)
切る(きる)- is a godan verb  (see above again).
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Last edited by nikorai; 2009-07-22 at 15:44.
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Old 2009-07-22, 17:35   Link #2550
mendokusa
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聞く→聞ない→聞いて (カ行5段活用)
来kuる→来koない→来kiて (カ行変格活用)
繰る→繰ない→繰って   (ラ行5段活用)
着る→着kiない→着て   (カ行上一段活用)
切る→切ない→切って  (ラ行5段活用)
買う→買ない→買って(買うて)  (ワ行5段活用)

聞くand 聞こえる are not same.

聞こえる→聞こない→聞こえて  (ヤ行下一段活用)
(old japanere's "聞こゆ”)

聞いてください(聞く listen)
please listen it.
聞こえますか?(聞こえるhear)
Can you hear me?

着せる→着ない→着せて (サ行下一段活用)

服を着ます。(着る)
子供に服を着せます。(着せる)

Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-22 at 18:07.
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Old 2009-07-22, 18:32   Link #2551
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mendokusa
Thanks for more examples and verb classification based on gojuuon. 'Kikoeru' is put under ヤ行. I wouldn't figure that myself. Same goes for verbs ending with 'u' which are labeled as 'wa-gyou katsuyou'.
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Old 2009-07-23, 05:34   Link #2552
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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@nikorai "Why do you need to complicate things so badly? I personally had a headache after looking at your examples."

lol...sorry but if I don't clear up my doubts about confusing stuff...I won't even able to understand easy stuff....But I hope that helped clear some of your doubts as well

Arigatou mendokusa san....that was a helpful explaination....I hope I didn't caused you much trouble...
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Old 2009-07-23, 11:37   Link #2553
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should learn how to change verb before 音便.
五段活用
上一段活用
下一段活用
カ行変格活用 来る
サ行変格活用 -する、する

ごめんなさい、カ行とサ行が逆だったから直した。

old japanese writing
四段活用
上一段活用
上二段活用
下一段活用
下二段活用
ナ行変格活用
ラ行変格活用
サ行変格活用
カ行変格活用

hun,don't need to learn old japanese writing.
so,less than old.

Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-23 at 17:43.
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Old 2009-07-23, 14:48   Link #2554
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@mendokusa

はい...了解した、先生...習います...

I hope that's a correct sentence

Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-26 at 07:08.
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Old 2009-07-23, 16:09   Link #2555
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Maybe just change it a little
了解しました、先生! (or 先生、了解です) 習ってみます。

Because it looks to me like "a sensei who said roger" instead of the desired "I got you, sensei".
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Old 2009-07-23, 18:13   Link #2556
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未然形(まだしていない)
~ない、~よう(~う)
連用形(用言<動詞、形容詞、形容動詞>に繋がる)
~ます、~て、~た
終止形(辞書に載っている形)
~。
連体形(体言<名詞、代名詞>に繋がる)
~こと
仮定形(仮定する)
~ば
命令形(命令する)
~!

未然、連用、終始、連体、仮定、命令
(sa行五段活用)
さandそ、し、す、す、せ、せ
miる(上一段活用)
み、み、みる、みる、みれ、みれ
聞こる(下一段活用)
え、え、える、える、えれ、えれ

上一段活用 and 下一段活用 are same.
●、●、●る、●る、●れ、●れ
●is "?i",so "上一段"
●is "?e",so "下一段"

when ●a行五段活用,
●a and ●o,●i,●u,●u,●e,●e

未然形(~ない)is difference by kind of 活用.
貸saない
miない
聞こeない
so,before ない,a is 五段、i is 上一段、e is 下一段.

only するand 来るare special verb for change.
する
し、し、する、する、すれ、しろ
来る
こ、き、くる、くる、くれ、こい

Last edited by mendokusa; 2009-07-23 at 18:28.
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Old 2009-07-24, 11:33   Link #2557
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
Maybe just change it a little
了解しました、先生! (or 先生、了解です) 習ってみます。

Because it looks to me like "a sensei who said roger" instead of the desired "I got you, sensei".
oh sorry didn't thought of punctuations... a comma is appropriate i suppose

Mendokusa san...I'll note down your explaination about imperfective form, conjugative form etc...and go through it later...I'm still working on verbs....so it may take time....I don't want to rush...I'll learn slowly

Last edited by sonotme_9FedriqSama; 2009-07-24 at 11:43.
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Old 2009-07-24, 18:43   Link #2558
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hum,
turtle walk slowly,but can walk on long way because have lived for 10000 years.
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Old 2009-07-24, 20:24   Link #2559
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"Suki ni suru" roughly means "do what you like" but would "suki de suru" mean "do it as you like it?" Or would you have to be more specific (for minimal understanding).
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Old 2009-07-24, 20:54   Link #2560
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to Alchemist007
Suki ni suru.(=shitai youni suru.)
I decide whatever I hope.

often use this sentence when there is something to select.
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