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Old 2009-08-25, 17:10   Link #2661
Sa-sei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
Check out japanese news too (avoid variety shows) or documentaries and surround yourself in different registers of the language, that'll help.
I don't know any kanji though When do you think is best to start learning kanji?
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:25   Link #2662
mendokusa
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Quote:
I don't know any kanji though When do you think is best to start learning kanji?
after learning hiragana and katakana,should memorize word and the kanji.
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:31   Link #2663
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You know what I wish, dvds would come with Japanese character subs, that'd be one good boost.
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:52   Link #2664
Crisis
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I learnt a lot of Japanese words after watching all these subbed anime and have begun to say Japanese at my confused friends.
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Old 2009-08-25, 18:52   Link #2665
Sa-sei
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after learning hiragana and katakana,should memorize word and the kanji.
Thanks. I'll do that if I ever progress to that level I've heard that even some natives can't read kanji very well. Is it true?
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Old 2009-08-25, 21:33   Link #2666
Doraneko
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Originally Posted by Sa-sei View Post
I've heard that even some natives can't read kanji very well. Is it true?
I suppose anyone in any country should at least be able to comprehend local newspapers once he has graduated from high school. But Japanese newspapers have enough kanji to make any beginner cry. So what do you think?

On a side note, I did hear that some youngsters today cannot write kanji properly, since they rely too much on PCs and mobile phones.
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Old 2009-08-25, 21:35   Link #2667
iLney
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Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Well, I heard this sentence in Nodame Cantabile:

今日みな学校だって行ってましたよ。 (I hope it's correct)

The sub reads: "Everyone has school today." It looks more like "Today, everyone goes to school, which is open."

Err.... I assume this is natural Japanese. My question is: is there any rule to this naturalness? I can't never find myself saying such thing.

Edit: btw, "ノダメさん、今日な予定は?" Is that a valid sentence?
Anyone?
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Old 2009-08-25, 22:45   Link #2668
Tenken's Smile
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sa-sei View Post
I've heard that even some natives can't read kanji very well. Is it true?
The Japanese start learning Kanji as soon as 1st grade (by the end of elementary school, they should know >1006 Kyoiku - "education" Kanji), and keep learning more until the age of 15. So generally speaking, they know Kanji very well and can read newspapers very fast. I heard that some people even read faster by reading Kanji columns diagonally, but I don't know how that works.
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Old 2009-08-26, 05:38   Link #2669
LiberLibri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
"ノダメさん、今日な予定は?" Is that a valid sentence
- 今日予定は(いかがですか)? Are you free today?
- 今日予定は(何ですか)? What are you going to do today?
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Old 2009-08-26, 05:45   Link #2670
Theowne
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sa-sei View Post
When do you think is best to start learning kanji?
In my opinion: as soon as possible. It's a slow and long process. It's a very different process learning kanji from the perspective of growing up with it in Japan, than it is to suddenly face the task of memorizing hundreds and hundreds of symbols up front when learning it as a second language. Many people I know start Japanese and can easily understand conversations while their kanji skills still proceed at a slow pace.
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Old 2009-08-26, 08:55   Link #2671
Sa-sei
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Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
The Japanese start learning Kanji as soon as 1st grade (by the end of elementary school, they should know >1006 Kyoiku - "education" Kanji), and keep learning more until the age of 15. So generally speaking, they know Kanji very well and can read newspapers very fast. I heard that some people even read faster by reading Kanji columns diagonally, but I don't know how that works.
I respect Japanese nation because of how they put effort into everything they do and work hard but, although I think kanji is beautiful and been used for a long time, doesn't learning the alphabet for years take too much of their effort that they can use for other things? I think so because we used Arabic alphabet for centuries but then it was decided that Latin alphabet was more suitable for our language and easier to learn. Or does that make them smarter than they already are? And maybe, they are sticking to kanji like how they are trying to value their traditions which is a good thing because I see that the youngster are getting far away from these values. Well, I may not be the one to talk though, because I don't know the situation well. So, enlighten me please

Anyways, I am intimidated by the difficulty of kanji. So I guess I 'm just gonna learn speaking and maybe enough to read signs and stuff.
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Old 2009-08-26, 10:30   Link #2672
ganbaru
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The thing about the kanji ( after than you learned them ) is than they make texts less difficult to understand , even uning only hiragana and katakana isn't enough.
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Old 2009-08-26, 12:03   Link #2673
Tenken's Smile
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It makes texts more difficult for me .. LOL
--> from someone whose penchant for Kanji is... well, non-existent
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Old 2009-08-26, 13:36   Link #2674
iLney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sa-sei View Post
I respect Japanese nation because of how they put effort into everything they do and work hard but, although I think kanji is beautiful and been used for a long time, doesn't learning the alphabet for years take too much of their effort that they can use for other things? I think so because we used Arabic alphabet for centuries but then it was decided that Latin alphabet was more suitable for our language and easier to learn. Or does that make them smarter than they already are? And maybe, they are sticking to kanji like how they are trying to value their traditions which is a good thing because I see that the youngster are getting far away from these values. Well, I may not be the one to talk though, because I don't know the situation well. So, enlighten me please

Anyways, I am intimidated by the difficulty of kanji. So I guess I 'm just gonna learn speaking and maybe enough to read signs and stuff.
This may help http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Ka.../dp/4889960759

And if you plan to use the book, this site will be of great help http://kanji.koohii.com/

It works great for me. You only need book 1 (for the first 2000 kanjis) and book 3 (for the next 1000). Forget about book 2 (well, you can use it but I don't think it helps much). After that, learn the hiragana and katakana.

@LiberLibri: thx, but after, another listening for another 30 times, it's still "な"

Can someone check if I heard it properly? It's from Nodame Cantabile, Paris-Hen, ep.7 at 2:16, Rui's line. (Right after Nodame told her why she was kicked out)
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Old 2009-08-26, 14:31   Link #2675
Heturi
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Music

So...I did some research on music and learning. Actually even in the womb the brain learns musicaly. That is the exact way we learn our native language, through the music and lullabys our parents sing to us.According to my research, Music is the best way to learn. Scientist use music to teach stroke patients how to talk again. Studies show that even though a patient can't talk properly they can still sing and dance! So they studied kids, adults, and the elderly and all had posative results. Music helps you learn BETTER. I have also uncoverd that the brain is thicker in the areas that govern Speach, math, cohesion, your general 'learning' skill if you learn an instrament; Music increases your perseption thus allowing you to learn faster and easyer. So basicly if you want to excel in anything, learn an instrament first (No wonder why I feel listening to Japanese music has helped me learn the language!) Oh yeah! Infants cry in patterns that reflect the music there culture creates. Just sayin'......They talk by singing to you!
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Old 2009-08-26, 16:54   Link #2676
Sa-sei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
This may help http://www.amazon.com/Remembering-Ka.../dp/4889960759

And if you plan to use the book, this site will be of great help http://kanji.koohii.com/

It works great for me. You only need book 1 (for the first 2000 kanjis) and book 3 (for the next 1000). Forget about book 2 (well, you can use it but I don't think it helps much). After that, learn the hiragana and katakana.
Thanks for the advice.
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Old 2009-08-26, 18:54   Link #2677
Yu Ominae
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Been looking at that for some time now. Thanks too.
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Old 2009-08-28, 09:52   Link #2678
mendokusa
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japanese learn basic kanji from 7 to 15 age, this is 1945.
japanese news paper is made up by this kanji.
this often are useful.
even japanese people, kanji that removed this is little understandable.
so, then it often supplement with hiragana.
you should start from kanji among this 1945.
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Old 2009-08-28, 11:25   Link #2679
nikorai
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Speaking of learning kanji. I learn them as they appear in my textbook. When I have to to learn at all, that is. And the textbook is written by a professor who teaches Japanese so she knows it better which way would be most effective. I must say that when I was learning the starting level kanji were given in lists separately from words. When I went to learn the middle level (that’s where I am) the textbook I’m using now only gives lists of words but in large amounts. The good side of it is that you learn new kanji along with words which is much more effective and it saves time. いわば、一石二鳥のことです。

iLney

Quote:
@LiberLibri: thx, but after, another listening for another 30 times, it's still "な"

Can someone check if I heard it properly? It's from Nodame Cantabile, Paris-Hen, ep.7 at 2:16, Rui's line. (Right after Nodame told her why she was kicked out)
I managed to find the recording of this episode and listened to the phrase myself. It is definitely 'no'.
ノダメさん、今日の予定は?

Well, at least this is the only variant which is grammatically correct. And when you hear ‘na’ I think it’s because it comes right after ‘kyo’ which is heavily stressed here. A bad comparison, perhaps, but in Russian it is standard to say ‘a’ in place of written ‘o’ in the unstressed position. In Japanese, on the other hand, replacing sounds is strictly prohibited. So here the only explanation why you can catch ‘na’ here is that ‘no’ is pronounced in a low tone and quickly here. A slight assimilation with ‘yo’ perhaps.
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Old 2009-08-28, 12:52   Link #2680
iLney
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Thx. Ye, the "o" sound of "kyo" is so pronounced that I couldn't hear the next "o" in "no." Hmm... interesting. I notice some adjective ending with "na" to modify a noun, say "zetsupouteki na kimochi" (depressed spirit/ or just depressed, lulz) while some adjective uses "no" to modify a noun ( chaniro no inu, a brown dog). I didn't learn any grammar, just the patterns from the sentences I have.

I can easily mistake "chaniro no inu" with "chaniro na inu" this way, cant I?
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