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Old 2009-09-19, 20:16   Link #2721
iLney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mendokusa View Post
私は部屋でテレビを見ました。
without"自分の",normally it mean subject's
彼は(彼の)部屋でテレビを見ました。
subject=自分
(私は)(私を)その妻に置き換えて見たりもした。
subject is oneself,and often subject is nothing.
(私は)(私の)家で(私が)作ったご飯を食べた。
Thank you but I guess I quoted the sentence our of context: would this be better for you?

由美ちゃんは、広々とした牧草と、青い空とを思い描いた。そこで手に手をとって動物の世話をする若夫婦の姿 を想像した。自分をその妻に置き換えて見たりもした

見たり =?

I'm not going to learn the two previous sentences, yet. But if you would be so kind...

I have another simple question:
うちは全館禁煙です.
What is the suitable kanji for うち here? 家?内?中?裡?Or just うち?
Edit: context: The boss of a building walks to a guy who is smoking and says うちは全館禁煙です.
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Old 2009-09-19, 20:37   Link #2722
nikorai
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iLney
I guess the meaning is like 'in MY house smoking is prohibited".
Like this - うちのマンションは全館禁煙だ
Why do you need kanji?
うち=私
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Old 2009-09-19, 21:12   Link #2723
iLney
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うち=私 ? I've never seen that...

The conversation happened at a Care Center and the speaker was the boss (I guess) so I had a hard time thinking "うち" referred to a residence.

As for why I need the kanji: to learn the reading.
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Old 2009-09-19, 21:25   Link #2724
Haladflire65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
うち=私 ? I've never seen that...

The conversation happened at a Care Center and the speaker was the boss (I guess) so I had a hard time thinking "うち" referred to a residence.

As for why I need the kanji: to learn the reading.
'uchi' can be used in place of 'watashi'. We do it often.
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Old 2009-09-20, 01:32   Link #2725
mendokusa
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when speak sentence like same meaning,japanese speak like next
1.今後の高等教育についてですが、
2.高等教育の指針はどのようになるとお考えでしょうか
3.貴会の正会員は何名でしょうか。
4.ひとつだけご確認させていただきたいのですが、人材不足とはどういう意味合いでしょうか。
5.貴会は主にどういった活動(or事業)をなさっていますか。
5.人材育成を国内外のどちらでお考えでしょうか。
6.プロジェクト・ファイナンスは議題になることが予定されていますか。
7.部署会議はいつですか。
8.このデータをいただけませんか。
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Old 2009-09-20, 01:52   Link #2726
mendokusa
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Quote:
由美ちゃんは、広々とした牧草と、青い空とを思い描いた。そこで手に手をとって動物の世話をす る若夫婦の姿 を想像した。自分をその妻に置き換えて見たりもした
見たりした。
some verb is connected by"たり"
食べたり話したりする。
when do many thing,only the one thing .
見たり(いろんなことを)した
Quote:
うちは全館禁煙です.
"うち"is subject's
then mean subject's building
this kanji is "家or内",but don't mean only house,often "うちorウチ"。
うちの製品がよく売れたit sold my company's product much
this "うち"is my company.
内=家庭、家族、家
japanese think 家庭(内) is myself.
2月3日”鬼は外,福は内”demon go away,happiness come here
内is my house and my family.
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Old 2009-09-20, 09:47   Link #2727
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mendokusaさん

Thanks as always, mendokusa.
Quote:
国内外のどちらで
Great. I'd never figure to say like that myself.
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Old 2009-09-20, 11:16   Link #2728
iLney
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Ah splendid answers. Thank you very much, everyone
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Old 2009-09-21, 15:23   Link #2729
Lord Raiden
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Ok, I have a question, and I'm not sure this is the right place, but I'll take a whack at it anyways. I remember at one time running into a Japanese Kanji learning system that took the Kanji themselves and broke them down into their component parts, explaining what each meant. It was a way to allow new readers to very rapidly learn Kanji by identifying the key parts and easily identifying its meaning. I'd like to track down a system like that again, but I lost my original notes on what it was. If anyone knows what it is, I'd love to hear from you, because I think something like that, for a mechanically minded person like me, would be likely the best way to learn and memorize Kanji.
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Old 2009-09-21, 20:01   Link #2730
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Raiden View Post
Ok, I have a question, and I'm not sure this is the right place, but I'll take a whack at it anyways. I remember at one time running into a Japanese Kanji learning system that took the Kanji themselves and broke them down into their component parts, explaining what each meant. It was a way to allow new readers to very rapidly learn Kanji by identifying the key parts and easily identifying its meaning. I'd like to track down a system like that again, but I lost my original notes on what it was. If anyone knows what it is, I'd love to hear from you, because I think something like that, for a mechanically minded person like me, would be likely the best way to learn and memorize Kanji.
Hmm... well, there's zhongwen.com, but that's Chinese-oriented, and some of the explanations of some of the more complex ones aren't really as straightforward as they're presented there. I know there are a number of books out there that use mnemonic devices and so forth to help memorize the kanji, but they tend to annoy me because their explanations of the components are not always etymologically sound. So... hmm.
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Old 2009-09-21, 21:47   Link #2731
iLney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Raiden View Post
Ok, I have a question, and I'm not sure this is the right place, but I'll take a whack at it anyways. I remember at one time running into a Japanese Kanji learning system that took the Kanji themselves and broke them down into their component parts, explaining what each meant. It was a way to allow new readers to very rapidly learn Kanji by identifying the key parts and easily identifying its meaning. I'd like to track down a system like that again, but I lost my original notes on what it was. If anyone knows what it is, I'd love to hear from you, because I think something like that, for a mechanically minded person like me, would be likely the best way to learn and memorize Kanji.
This? http://kanji.koohii.com/

I call it t3h Sparta system
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Old 2009-09-22, 00:58   Link #2732
mako1138
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From what I've heard, the Heisig method does work. However at the end you'll have learned a bunch of kanji without knowing the Japanese pronunciations, which you'll still have to learn. But there's no doubt that knowing the meaning of the kanji is valuable in itself.
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Old 2009-09-22, 10:06   Link #2733
nikorai
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Quote:
This? http://kanji.koohii.com/

I call it t3h Sparta system
I can see that it's an old book and the method it introduces is accepted by many learners. And the set of kanji is very nice, too. But there's something entirely wrong with this book, and that is a total lack of kanji pronunciation.
As I said, I learn words, not kanji themselves. And kanji are memorized automatically as you progress with your studies.
It's like in the translation exercises I posted above. The same words are repeated regularly, and if you write the same word 10 times around you inevitably memorize it whether you want it or not. Plus you learn grammar at the same time. I think that Japanese is tough enough even without "t3h s|>4r4" system.
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Old 2009-09-22, 14:26   Link #2734
iLney
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There is a second book which teaches you how to pronounce them. However, it's kinda useless: there are too many readings while the book only has only a scanty number of them. Anyway, it's up to you. If you want to learn the meaning and the writing, there is nothing I know of can beat it. Within 3 months, (it took me ~1 month), you eat 2000+ kanji! After that, learning Japanese is actually way easier since you have remove the most alien part of Japanese language (grammar is the second) out of the way.

BTW, it helps somewhat reading the second book. I can vaguely guess the reading of some kanjis. There is a weird logic in them... anyway, it's up to you.

Some people like the method much that they complain there are only 3500 kanjis in 3 books to learn
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Old 2009-09-22, 16:24   Link #2735
nikorai
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iLney
You know, I started learning japanese with
http://japanese.about.com/

There's kanji land with nice kanji there, the reading and examples of usage in words.
My textbook for the beginners also had kanji listed separately in each unit.
But after some time I realized that I can very well skip that part and learn the words instead. And my idea was supported in the textbook I'm learning now. There are only word lists with their reading in kana and translation of useful expressions.
So I think that now I know only a few hundred kanji but grammar worries me more, actually.
That is, I'm a bit skeptical about the idea to learn 2000 kanji in a month. I guess that writing down the whole set of kanji doesn't really improve your language skills.
There's something good in the traditional textbooks. It can take much more time to learn using them but you can be sure of positive results from your studies.

Quote:
I can vaguely guess the reading of some kanjis. There is a weird logic in them...
Yep. Guessing on-yomi is a good game. Sometimes you can guess correctly but other times your guess can be completely off the mark.
For example,
'ji' is 寺、侍、時、持
But 待 is not 'ji' but 'tai'. You can only memorize it.

On the whole I'm trying to use the same approach here as I was taught English and French at the uni. There were tons of translation exercises to learn all those rules and words, and in addition I had constant speech practice.
So, at the moment I'm missing one important component in my Japanese studies and that is speech practice. I guess that language courses might help but for now I can only choose between my self-studies and nothing at all.
Hopefully I have you guys, with lots of suggestions and a real help with checking exercises.
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Old 2009-09-23, 00:08   Link #2736
iLney
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I see it as a lubricant: no matter how good it is, if one doesn't move, he's not going anywhere.
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Old 2009-09-23, 00:30   Link #2737
mendokusa
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As japanese,
I'm sure kanji don't only express pronunciation.
for example
"時計"
someone don't know pronunciation,but know meaning.
"時"is TIME,"計"is METER,so this is WATCH or CLOCK.
many kanji have some pronunciation each conbination other kanji.
but keep often same meaning.
”見学”is ”見る”and ”学ぶ”.

I think "訓読み" is more important than ”音読み”.
"訓読み"is that pronunciation express meaning.
"音読み"is that pronunciation is from china.
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Old 2009-09-23, 07:42   Link #2738
nikorai
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iLney
Quote:
I see it as a lubricant: no matter how good it is, if one doesn't move, he's not going anywhere.
You mean that I need to try a new approach or what?
I'm sure it's all about the time you dedicate to your studies. Now I can only find a couple of hours a day for my Japanese. It isn't really enough for any serious progress.

mendokusaさん

Quote:
I'm sure kanji don't only express pronunciation.
It reminds me of my attempts to read Chinese without knowing the pronunciation at all.

However when reading out loud it really gets on your nerves when you come across kanji you don't know. In European languages you can at least read the words and guess the meaning from pronunciation and context. So it seems that I come to the problem from the other end.
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Old 2009-09-23, 13:31   Link #2739
iLney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
iLney

You mean that I need to try a new approach or what?
I'm sure it's all about the time you dedicate to your studies. Now I can only find a couple of hours a day for my Japanese. It isn't really enough for any serious progress.
I was replying to your remark "I guess that writing down the whole set of kanji doesn't really improve your language skills." which is true. But it helps a lot if you really try to learn by whatever method.

I also don't have much time to learn Japanese so I rely on the "sentences" method. However, the way I am doing allows me to listen, reading, and speak to certain extent, but I don't feel like I'm able to write down anything... Well, I guess it does not matter much since I don't learn the language to pass tests
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Old 2009-09-24, 00:24   Link #2740
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Site I'm using
We can distinguish at least two such cases: the pseudo-future + と + する and pseudo-future + と + 思う. While […]+と+する normally means “to consider something […]”, the meaning changes to “at the point of doing […]” when combined with a pseudo-future:

ご飯を食べようとしたら 、電話がかかってきた。
"As (we) were about to eat, the phone rang."
I get most of the explanation, but I don't get why, in the example sentence, する is in the したら form. What's the conditional idea here?
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