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Old 2009-10-28, 21:51   Link #2781
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Thanks for the respond. I figure that a context should always be provided。Here it is:

A man and a woman were talking. The phone rang.

The man: すぐ行きませ(ん).

There was no emphasis at the end of the sentence. He said it flat. Plus, the man was looking for every possible reason to meet the caller so I think that "I'll be right there" makes sense.

<He hung up>
The man: [ぞおれ] [仕事入っていたから.]
"well, I got work to do."

He said it that way and left.

Ah, and they were what I heard I am positive about the first one. For the second, it could have been: ”じょおれ" ”じょうおれ” but they didn't make any sense. "ぞ" is used at the end of the sentence (only?) but it was the least "wrong," I think.
First of all, translation accuracy should -always- be doubted if the product you're watching was subbed for free or for cheap, or otherwise not done by professionals. For example, one should -always- doubt the translations on fansubs.

That being said, I can't pass judgment on this case because 1.) you're hearing it and transcribing it, and 2.) it still feels like there's missing context. If I was given that scene without a translation beforehand, I would assume sugu ikemasen would mean "I can't go immediately."

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Well, I'm 100% sure that it was "すぐ行きま...." and sen, sem, se.... but not su.

Thank you very much though. Next question:

よく言うよ!

I thought it were "well said" but the translation wrote "Bullshit" ?!
I don't see a problem with that translation. That's something akin to: "(I can't believe) you can say that (in this situation)."

To put it more specifically, it literally can mean something like "you can say that", except linguistically the usage is adapted for situations in which "you can say that" would be a bad thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
Is that a cultural thing? The most offensive I could read it would be "I definitely am saying!"
It's used when someone wants to make a comment about what someone else said. You wouldn't use it to describe your own words, but the words of another.
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Old 2009-10-28, 22:49   Link #2782
Alchemist007
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So its like mocking?
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Old 2009-10-29, 01:18   Link #2783
iLney
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@mendokusa & Kylaran: thanks

If it were "よく(そんなことを)言うよ!" it would make more sense. But if it stood alone like that (よく言うよ), how can I tell? (よく言った) is "well said" as mendokusa suggested).

An insult and a praise are that close?...

Likewise, in sentence like "しばらくして、女がまたこう言った." How can I tell "こう=このように?" Is there a list of such phrases? Searching "こう" will give a bunch of nonsensical results.
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Old 2009-10-29, 01:44   Link #2784
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alchemist007 View Post
So its like mocking?
It's more reprimanding or harshly criticizing (what someone said). [Edit]In a sense, you can think of it as calling someone out too. "Bullshit!" is one way to interpret it, but some times it's also "OMG YOU SAID THAT", if that serves as a better comparison for meaning. It's hard to fully describe without giving some good examples. Medokusa gave a good one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
If it were "よく(そんなことを)言うよ!" it would make more sense. But if it stood alone like that (よく言うよ), how can I tell? (よく言った) is "well said" as mendokusa suggested).

An insult and a praise are that close?...

Likewise, in sentence like "しばらくして、女がまたこう言った." How can I tell "こう=このように?" Is there a list of such phrases? Searching "こう" will give a bunch of nonsensical results.
I've never thought of it that way, actually. I always thought of it as the english equivalent of "she said this again" or "she said that again" (彼女がそう言った), but I do suppose in a way it means "said someone like that". I personally don't think this is a really hard concept to learn; it may not be in the dictionary, but if you hear it used naturally it makes a lot of sense to simply equivocate こう/そう as a unit with a similar meaning. I often try to pick up language holistically based on the meaning of the sentence overall (sometimes this strategy fails to work, especially when your assumptions about what someone's saying ends up being wrong), and this is one case where it feels natural to assume what the meaning is supposed to be.

As for the first part of your question, yes, the meanings can be confusing when used outside of context. In a sense, they're close, but in a sense, when used in the right context, they don't mean anything that similar, except in perhaps a literal way.
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Old 2009-11-02, 23:49   Link #2785
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How do are Japanese people able to read kanji fast enough if they have to first figure out what hatsuon it carries? Whenever I read stuff I have to think about what the kanji's reading is in relation to the context, and it takes a long time to do this. Do they just mess up the pronunciation a lot?
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Old 2009-11-03, 07:11   Link #2786
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
How do are Japanese people able to read kanji fast enough if they have to first figure out what hatsuon it carries? Whenever I read stuff I have to think about what the kanji's reading is in relation to the context, and it takes a long time to do this. Do they just mess up the pronunciation a lot?
There are times where even Japanese people mis-read kanji when the word is unfamiliar to them, but it follows the same principle by which we use to pronounce words in English (especially homophones). Take for example gourmet (Perhaps a poor choice of word, considering its French roots, but I will use it as a rough example, nonetheless.). A person seeing it may read it as "gour-met" with an aspirated t at the end in typical English fashion. If they're familiar with the pronunciation, and someone explains to them it's "gour-may", then they'll effectively have mapped the pronunciation, spelling (in the case of Japanese, the kanji), with the meaning.

To go into more detail: sometimes there are linguistic clues (example: a kanji compound with okurigana, thus signifying native pronounciation; 見習 is minarai, not kenshuu), but a lot of times it's an analogue mapping mechanism that learns through both linguistic rules and trial and error during one's childhood years first learning language. Basically, mapping sound onto meaning requires both knowledge of the rules (an example of which I just described), and another is simply knowing when irregularities occur and speaking the language naturally, to the point where you can breeze over a sentence and absorb it quickly.

Mistakes can be made by following the previously described linguistic rules during new word/grammar acquisition. For us learning Japanese as a foreign language, we try to put together which rules to use, and sometimes the rules are simply wrong. It's a mistake that children make as well.

So in conclusion to your question: they both know and don't know. For the vast majority of words in the language, they have experience and the rules apply. For more obscure terms, there may be historical or illogical reasons for the way something is pronounced, and thus error may occur in choosing the reading for the kanji despite being fluent. But for the most part, they are simply knowledgeable (aka fluent) in reading because their mind is conditioned to interpret the language a certain way.
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Old 2009-11-03, 15:13   Link #2787
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Kylaran
That is, itís best to be a native speaker and if youíre not but you want to be like one, it becomes a big pain to learn.
I remember when I learned French at the uni, everyone hated it because they couldnít memorize the pronunciation rules, and I loved French. And I still do. I think that pronunciation is actually the easiest part in French.
I guess that itís mostly about memorization. Speaking of Japanese, if you donít know the word your guess of reading by on-yomi doesnít always work. You check the dictionary and it turns out that the reading is completely different from what you thought.
Iím reading a manga where thereís no furigana. And there are quite a lot of new words for me. So it often happens that I know only one kanji in the word and I have to input it into the dictionary and pick up the word I need from the list.
Ah, and at some point the characters visit different parts of Japan, This is where I fail completely. Say, Iíve just read the part where they visited Hokkaido. Well, I remember that 札幌 is Sapporo. And I guessed (after several failed attempts) that 函館 is Hakodate. But 小樽 was a mystery. It is actually Otaru.
I studied at the faculty where students are divided into groups according to the languages they study. So we had 4 groups, English/French (mine), German/English, French/English and Chinese/English. So those who studied Chinese had a map of China for their lessons where all inscriptions are in kanji (hanzi), so the students were specifically trained to read geographical names.
And unfortunately, Japanese is not offered at the economic department but thereís a Chair of Japanese at the Interpretersí department.
I'm scared to think that I chose reading manga over my textbook. It turns out that I donít have time for both so I had to put aside my self-studies. Hopefully not for long.
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Old 2009-11-04, 00:05   Link #2788
LeoXiao
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Quote:
So in conclusion to your question: they both know and don't know. For the vast majority of words in the language, they have experience and the rules apply.
Ok, thanks.

Here's another question: How do you say sentences like "I think that..."? For example, "I think that he is buying something right now." What I am trying to close in on here is how "that" is expressed in this situation.

Quote:
I remember when I learned French at the uni, everyone hated it because they couldnít memorize the pronunciation rules, and I loved French. And I still do. I think that pronunciation is actually the easiest part in French.
Yeah, I don't get what is so hard about memorizing these simple basic rules such as those for pronunciation. There are so many people in my German class who just can't understand that "s" is actually "z", "w" is "v", "v" is "w", and so on. It's rather annoying.
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Old 2009-11-04, 08:19   Link #2789
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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wat does "nemurenu" in sentence 眠れぬ学園の生徒。refers to?. can someone give more examples with sentences with "nu" after verb.
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Old 2009-11-04, 10:43   Link #2790
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LeoXiao
Quote:
Yeah, I don't get what is so hard about memorizing these simple basic rules such as those for pronunciation. There are so many people in my German class who just can't understand that "s" is actually "z", "w" is "v", "v" is "w", and so on. It's rather annoying.
Oh, I can understand you pretty much. Iíve always wanted to learn German myself but I never came to doing it. Itís that Iím more motivated to learn Japanese, after all.

Ich spreche leider kein Deutsch.
残念ながら、ドイツ語が話せません。

Quote:
Here's another question: How do you say sentences like "I think that..."? For example, "I think that he is buying something right now." What I am trying to close in on here is how "that" is expressed in this situation.
Uh, literally it becomes
彼は今何か買っていると思う。
ďI think thatĒ is  ~と思う。

If he is doing some shopping then it's
彼は今頃、買い物をしているはずだ。
(He's supposed to be doing shopping at the moment (but not necessarily is))

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Quote:
wat does "nemurenu" in sentence 眠れぬ学園の生徒。refers to?. can someone give more examples with sentences with "nu" after verb.
ぬ is basically the same as ない。
Quote:
眠れぬ学園の生徒
My try: a pupil from a campus that never sleeps (lit. Ďsleepless academyí).
But I usually came across 眠れぬ夜 which means a wakeful (sleepless) night. Other combinations are quite rare.

Thereís a separate thread for advanced Japanese.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=78887
Here, Ryuou-san gave an extended overview of the usage of Ďnuí.
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Old 2009-11-04, 20:40   Link #2791
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Quote:
残念ながら、ドイツ語が話せません。
On the topic of the word "to say", how does the verb (言) work conjugation-wise? I've heard people say "imasu," "itta", "iwanai" and so on. It seems confusing, since I can't imagine where the "wa" would come from.
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Old 2009-11-04, 22:13   Link #2792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
On the topic of the word "to say", how does the verb (言) work conjugation-wise? I've heard people say "imasu," "itta", "iwanai" and so on. It seems confusing, since I can't imagine where the "wa" would come from.
Godan verbs that end in う go to わ instead of あ as you'd expect for the negative and such, and godan verbs ending in う、る、つ go to った in the past tense and って in the te-form. I think it's left over from classical Japanese or something (er, the わ thing, not the past tense thing). And if I'm not mistaken you'd be hearing いいます and not います, which is the formal of いる.
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Old 2009-11-04, 22:17   Link #2793
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LeoXiao
First,
話す and 言う are different words.
Second, mendokusa-san spoke extensively about 五段活用 and 一段活用。 He also explained the changes from the point of view of phonetics but it isn't like I can easily reproduce his explanation now.

Quote:
I've heard people say "imasu," "itta", "iwanai" and so on. It seems confusing, since I can't imagine where the "wa" would come from.
These people are correct.
in ワ行五段活用
未然形 う>わ に変えます。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%...B4%BB%E7%94%A8

言う>言わない
笑う>笑わない
問う>問わない
etc.

それが文法の問題です。練習してみてね。




 
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Old 2009-11-05, 01:08   Link #2794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Godan verbs that end in う go to わ instead of あ as you'd expect for the negative and such, and godan verbs ending in う、る、つ go to った in the past tense and って in the te-form. I think it's left over from classical Japanese or something (er, the わ thing, not the past tense thing). And if I'm not mistaken you'd be hearing いいます and not います, which is the formal of いる.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
LeoXiao
First,
話す and 言う are different words.
Second, mendokusa-san spoke extensively about 五段活用 and 一段活用。 He also explained the changes from the point of view of phonetics but it isn't like I can easily reproduce his explanation now.


These people are correct.
in ワ行五段活用
未然形 う>わ に変えます。
http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BA%...B4%BB%E7%94%A8

言う>言わない
笑う>笑わない
問う>問わない
etc.

それが文法の問題です。練習してみてね。
While these explanations are correct, I don't think either of these answer his question, which is about where the phoneme "wa" comes from in the negation of the verb 言う.

Here's a little history lesson for you LeoXiao, and everyone else unfamiliar with Japanese linguistic history (I myself have just started trying to educate myself about this):

Traditionally, many of the verbs we know as -u verbs (take for example, 言う) were once written with the kana that we know pronounce as "fu" ふ (although it's actual phonetic pronunciation is closer to the voiceless fricative hu). You'll see evidence of this if you look at writings from the Meiji-era and earlier, notably before the 1946 language reform bill. (Pardon me if I got the name of the bill wrong; I'm no history specialist.) Perhaps some of you who've watched the anime Bakemonogatari 化物語 have noticed that the katakana they use in the typesets do not follow modern kana usage rules. You can specifically find 云フ in a lot of the type sets: this is read as 言う (old kanji + old kana usage). I'm not too familiar with why it was written this way originally, but it supposedly still a mystery as to why there are very interesting spellings in historical kana usage 歴史的仮名遣い since linguists think that not even the older pronunciations of the words necessarily matches the spellings they once used.

Moving on: what you should also know is that this line of kana, はひふへほ was once pronounced as わいうえお. So, taking our knowledge of the rules governing the conjugation of godan 五段 verbs, we start from the center column (う) and shift to the first column for the imperfect form (未然形) which is what's used in the negative in modern Japanese. Thus, following the older version of the gojuon 五十音 table, we go from ふ to は. As you can see, what we know today as 言う ー> 言わない was actually 言ふ -> 言はない a long time ago and was pronounced いわない. This is exactly the same as 書くー>書かない. The modern form just loses that distinction.

Also, this is actually the same reason why the topic marker は is pronounced わ. A long time ago, it would've been correct to pronounce words spelled with は as わ, and despite the change in pronunciation of the はひふへほ row phonetically in the language itself, the Japanese mostly likely decided to retain the historical pronunciation of は as わ due to its unique grammatical function as the topic marker, thus differentiating it from は used to spell other words such as nouns, adjectives, verbs, etc.

[Edit]I initially wrote something wrong here about the historic form of the gerund って when applied to ふ verbs. Let me explain it correctly. 言って was once written いひて (pronounced いいて), which actually follows a conjugation rule of using the 2nd column/row in the 五十音 chart (similar to how 上一段 verbs are conjugated), only with a て attached at the end. For this reason, 打って was once written 打ちて. In order to reflect the geminated consonant (aka hard consonants like って and っけ), modern Japanese employed the 促音 っ. On that note, ゃゅょ for 拗音 did not used to exist either; there were different spelling rules ordaining how words with certain lengths were to be written out.

Hope this helps.

Last edited by Kylaran; 2009-11-05 at 01:40. Reason: Realized I wrote something wrong.
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Old 2009-11-05, 01:50   Link #2795
LeoXiao
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Wow... that's really impressive. I didn't expect that much detail. It was rather helpful.

So basically, because "iu" ends in "u", it gets changed to "iwa" in the negative form. Does this rule hold true for all other verbs that end in "u", such as "au" (to meet)? Could you say "boku wa kanojo o awanakatta?"
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Old 2009-11-05, 01:55   Link #2796
Kylaran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
Wow... that's really impressive. I didn't expect that much detail. It was rather helpful.

So basically, because "iu" ends in "u", it gets changed to "iwa" in the negative form. Does this rule hold true for all other verbs that end in "u", such as "au" (to meet)? Could you say "boku wa kanojo o awanakatta?"
Yes. That's correct. Except you use the particle と with 会う, because you meet with people. を is used for denoting actions done to objects.
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Old 2009-11-05, 02:22   Link #2797
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kylaran View Post
Except you use the particle と with 会う, because you meet with people. を is used for denoting actions done to objects.
haha, lol I knew that. Stupid mistake on my part.
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Old 2009-11-05, 03:20   Link #2798
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um guys im using mozzila and the japanese words are being shown as cubed number is there an add on for mozilla to under stand japaneses characters??
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Old 2009-11-05, 14:09   Link #2799
sonotme_9FedriqSama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post

ぬ is basically the same as ない。

My try: a pupil from a campus that never sleeps (lit. Ďsleepless academyí).
But I usually came across 眠れぬ夜 which means a wakeful (sleepless) night. Other combinations are quite rare.

Thereís a separate thread for advanced Japanese.
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=78887
Here, Ryuou-san gave an extended overview of the usage of Ďnuí.
有難う ニコライさん、 at first, I thought it might be a negavite suffix...but since I haven't come across it's usage from grammer point of view I wanted to confirm it and wanted to know how it is generally used in conversation that's why asked for examples.

Also thanks for the link I'll check the explaination by Ryuou-san.
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Old 2009-11-05, 17:31   Link #2800
nikorai
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Kylaran
That was absolutely fantastic!

Quote:
While these explanations are correct, I don't think either of these answer his question, which is about where the phoneme "wa" comes from in the negation of the verb 言う.
Ah, Iím sorry I wasnít really informative. Iím sure it had something to do with phonetics but I couldnít come up with any explanation myself. You know that the textbooks I learned only suggest mechanical memorization without going into any historical aspects. Thatís why my head is empty. And besides when I stopped by the thread it was already 6 am at my place so I didnít feel like doing any research either. Well I hope you understand meÖ

technomo12
Youíre right to use Mozilla but you also have to have support for Japanese characters installed. In Win Vista itís available by default but Win XP has only optional support for Asian languages. So youíll have to get the disc with Win XP, go to your Control Panel/Regional settings and install the support from there. XP will copy necessary files from the cd and after that the cubes will turn into kanji. I hope that helps.

sonotme_9FedriqSama

いいえ、どういたしまして。
お役に立ててうれしいです。

But you know that my Japanese leaves much to be desired. Itís great that we have some true professionals here to help us or else it wouldíve been very tough.
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