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Old 2010-03-15, 22:08   Link #2941
Tenken's Smile
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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I have a question:
--> 日本語できたんですか まあったりまえでそけどね. I don't understand this phrase: "まあったりまえでそけどね"

Last edited by Tenken's Smile; 2010-03-16 at 17:12.
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Old 2010-03-18, 04:43   Link #2942
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
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Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Just an interesting article to post in here for those who're thinking of learning japanese or are just beginning.
This time its the 'serious' version, which truly has some useful tips in here, the intro of which I'll post
(The funny version is from the writer called 'Dan'.)
Quote:
So you really want to learn Japanese?

For the last nine months (as of this writing) I have been spending a large amount of my spare time learning the Japanese language. I've discovered that Japanese seems to be a pretty popular language to learn. Although I'm still only a beginner, I've recently found myself making recommendations and suggestions to other beginners.

Why? I think that it might be difficult to move beyond the "completely raw beginner" stage in to the "plain old beginner" stage; the job of "Japanese language beginner" seems to have a very high turnover rate. I see it all the time at the local Japanese conversation group and on Japanese learners' forums on the internet: people are interested in learning Japanese but quickly disappear after a little exposure to the task of actually learning it.

And it really is a task. It takes real work and effort to learn Japanese (or any new language or skill, for that matter). Time and time again I see comments such as, "It shouldn't be too difficult just to pick up enough Japanese to play a video game", or "What's a quick and easy way to learn Japanese but still remember everything?" Well, there is no "quick and easy way". However, the right tools can make learning Japanese "quicker and easier", and even fun.

A few years ago someone named "Dan" wrote an essay titled So you want to learn Japanese. It was an amusing satire which has become more amusing as I've become more familiar with the world of learning Japanese. However, finding really useful beginner-level information is a little more difficult, so I've put together a few of my own observations here.

So, you really want to learn Japanese? Let me give you a few tips and show you some of the tools and tricks which have worked for me. Occasional Japanese words and phrases will appear in romaji rather than in kana; if you're advanced enough to expect kana, you'll be advanced enough to forgive the use of romaji for the beginners' sake.

Someone pointed out that the best way to learn Japanese is to go to Japan, become immersed in the language and culture, and either sink or swim. Great idea...if you can do it. These tips are for the rest of us.
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Old 2010-03-18, 10:31   Link #2943
Ottocycle
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Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenken's Smile View Post
I have a question:
--> 日本語できたんですか まあったりまえでそけどね. I don't understand this phrase: "まあったりまえでそけどね"
Sounds like there was a typo with そ intended to be す.
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Old 2010-04-01, 18:49   Link #2944
Shinigami-Momo
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: England
Age: 24
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I want to learn Japanese but I don't know whether I should start with the Speaking/listening or reading/writing? I found this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Genki-1-Text...2811052&sr=8-1) but it is useful for beginners who know nothing?
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Old 2010-04-01, 19:09   Link #2945
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinigami-Momo View Post
Sorry to resurrect an old thread but I want to learn Japanese but I don't know whether I should start with the Speaking/listening or reading/writing? I found this book (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Genki-1-Text...2811052&sr=8-1) but it is useful for beginners who know nothing?
It's a learning thread, it's meant to be used whenever and however
And 45 quid, it looks like a rip off.
I wish I could bookmark my posts in this thread, since your question is one I've answered time and time again with links, etc (and so have others)
You'd do well to read/skim the last 20 pages or so of this thread, just to look for similar questions to your own for advice.
However to mention them again.

Learning all four is fine.
For reading and writing, learning the alphabets in hiragana, katakana then kanji. Hiragana has about 50 characters, so try to learn/memorise about 10-15 a week?
There are plenty of 'learn how to write' japanese websites where you can print off tracing sheets which have stroke orders.
At the same time, wherever you're learning your basic phrases, try writing new words in hiragana that you've learnt (use romaji for those you don't know) so in time, you can read/write in hiragana asap while learning more new sentences and grammar.

As for speaking, well skype is there.
Copying videos and sounds files will help with sounds too.
(There are websites with free mp3s to download the basic sounds of the japanese language)
Do search for those.

But my advice is to self study first for about a month, see how much progress you make, how disciplined you can be before investing in a textbook.
By then, you'll already be in a learning mindset, so are more likely to work through a textbook and finish it
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Old 2010-04-02, 18:12   Link #2946
Shinigami-Momo
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Thanks for the advice. I'll post here again if i have any problems or when I have made any real progress.
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Old 2010-04-10, 01:18   Link #2947
Raiga
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 22
Could somebody help me with this one construction I'm having trouble figuring out? It's a て-form + は thing.

I know that usually ~ては on a verb turns the verb into a noun, like in こうしてはダメです but I've seen it pop up in a string with other verbs and I can't figure out how to parse it as a noun, or if there's another way to interpret it.

Uh, the only examples I can think of are from song lyrics... like I remember the 4th FMA:B OP had the one line, 掴みかけてまた離れて行った or something like that. Also popped up a few times in "Butterfly" (Vocaloid song, TokuP):

舞い落ちる君の翅
抱きしめて眠った

and

汚れて 心迷う君と
はしゃいで からまっていたい

(I've tried to include all necessary context but if it's not enough say so).
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Old 2010-04-12, 10:30   Link #2948
Doraneko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Could somebody help me with this one construction I'm having trouble figuring out? It's a て-form + は thing.

I know that usually ~ては on a verb turns the verb into a noun, like in こうしてはダメです but I've seen it pop up in a string with other verbs and I can't figure out how to parse it as a noun, or if there's another way to interpret it.

Uh, the only examples I can think of are from song lyrics... like I remember the 4th FMA:B OP had the one line, 掴みかけてまた離れて行った or something like that. Also popped up a few times in "Butterfly" (Vocaloid song, TokuP)
I am not too sure if ては functions to turn a verb into a noun... Isn't the construction that is supposed to do that be の, as in のは and のが? Of course there is also a less common way by cutting the ます suffix from ます verbs, like 走り, but that is not universally applicable and the resulting noun may end up with a different meaning in some cases.

Anyway the general use of ては is quite close to たら, except that the latter is broader in usage. ては usually is succeeded by undesirable things, as in こうしてはダメ. There is no such requirement for たら.

Another use is to show regularly/habitually repeated actions. Your example of 掴みかけてはまた離れて行った falls into this.

Here is a good discussion on the specific usage and limitations of the construction.

Spoiler for 日本語表現文型辞典:188 ~ては~/~ては~ては~:


Source: 日本語駆け込み寺
http://www.nihongo2.com/
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Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-04-12 at 10:55.
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Old 2010-04-12, 12:46   Link #2949
Raiga
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Ahh... I see. It'll probably take a bit more practice but I think I basically get it now. The discussion with the dialogue example was quite helpful. Thanks! ^^
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Old 2010-04-15, 05:26   Link #2950
Isegrim
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Age: 27
A question regarding the potential form.

Verb in 連用形 + 得る means I'm able to do something.
Verb in 連用形 + 得ざる means I'm not able to do something.
Correct?

Does this form have the same meaning as ...ことができる ?
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Old 2010-04-15, 07:39   Link #2951
nikorai
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Isegrim
Quote:
Does this form have the same meaning as ...ことができる ?
No.

Maybe you mean an expression like
せざるを得ない ?
If so then it means "I can't help but" "There's nothing I can do but" (implied "I'm forced to")

例えば、
私は日本語が苦手なので、ラノベ を読むときに辞典を使わざるを得ません。
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Old 2010-04-15, 08:16   Link #2952
Doraneko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isegrim View Post
A question regarding the potential form.

Verb in 連用形 + 得る means I'm able to do something.
Verb in 連用形 + 得ざる means I'm not able to do something.
Correct?

Does this form have the same meaning as ...ことができる ?
Technically you are not wrong, but the common negative form of 得る is 得ない. You can almost hear words like 出来得る, あり得ない on a daily basis. On the other hand ざる is pretty rare since it is a traditional form (連体形 of ざり). Fixed constructions like せざるを得ない, which Nikorai has pointed out, is may be more common. But they still sound extremely rigid.

As for 得ざる... Writing is maybe okay if you use it sparingly for one or two keywords (say in the title of your essay). But speaking it would make you sound like a time traveller from the Heian Era.


Also, there are some fine differences between the normal 可能動詞・ことができる and 得る・得ない despite of the similarities.

For example:

1.話せる(話すことが出来る)
- Has the capability of talking about the subject matter / speaking the language
eg. 英語が自由に話せるようになった

2.話し得る(話すことが出来得る)
- Has a possibility/opportunity to talk about the subject matter base on the circumstances
eg. 地元と話し得る条件の整うまでは建設を強行すべきではない


Hope it helps .
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Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-04-15 at 08:44. Reason: Fixed the parts on ことができる
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Old 2010-04-15, 13:11   Link #2953
Isegrim
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Thanks, that's what I have meen looking for. None of my books mentioned this construction, now I know the reason for that
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Old 2010-04-25, 12:49   Link #2954
TheForsaken
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I have a question.
Does anyone know what is the meaning of テラネ申 ?
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Old 2010-04-27, 15:35   Link #2955
Honeysuckle
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: jpn
"miracle!" or "very generous!"
Internet slang

テラ → tera 1 000 000 000 000
ネ申 → 神 → 神技(かみわざ)
        → 生き神(いきがみ)・生き仏(いきぼとけ)

ごめんなさい、英語でうまく説明してさしあげられたらよいのですが。
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Old 2010-04-28, 08:03   Link #2956
Sparvid
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: A Swede in Tokyo
I've recently learned hiragana, and wonder if there are some good practicing sites out there. I know of several which deals with "learn each individual character here", but what I'd like to find is a place which list words or complete sentences in hiragana, and a way to fairly quickly be able to check whether i'm right or wrong.

Like the bottom of this page, except with a lot more words.
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Old 2010-05-12, 01:01   Link #2957
Raiga
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見えなくたって I'm unfamiliar with this verb/adjective form, could anybody explain it to me? My only guess is that it's a contraction of something else... IME seems to recognize it as one unit though...
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Old 2010-05-12, 01:37   Link #2958
Doraneko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
見えなくたって I'm unfamiliar with this verb/adjective form, could anybody explain it to me? My only guess is that it's a contraction of something else... IME seems to recognize it as one unit though...
Context is important. For 95%+ chance it means "見えなくても" (でも ~ だって). On the other hand it may also possibly be an expression from certain dialects.

But without a full sentence example it is difficult to tell.
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Old 2010-05-12, 12:50   Link #2959
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Doraneko View Post
Context is important. For 95%+ chance it means "見えなくても" (でも ~ だって). On the other hand it may also possibly be an expression from certain dialects.

But without a full sentence example it is difficult to tell.
It's from a song. The full verse:

ただまっすぐにと
射抜く視線
透明に絡まる
見えなくたって
惹かれあうから
手を伸ばすだけ

The most likely explanation you gave seems to make sense though. Thanks!
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Old 2010-05-12, 19:26   Link #2960
Terrestrial Dream
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Started learning Japanese, first thing that comes to my mind is that it is very difficult language and I only started learning Hiragana. But thank god the grammar structure is so similar to Korean and lot of the words are interchangeable, for example の has an equal counterpart with 의. The only problem I have right now is I have to memorize all the Hiragana in the first week and than Katakana next week which is difficult and rather confusing at first, but doable.

Also regarding Kanji how many of them would I need to know in order for me to read Japanese in game like Super Robot War? I heard most high school students know at least 8,000 on average but I doubt I could learn that much at this point in my life.
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