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Old 2010-09-19, 01:10   Link #3161
thevil1
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What's the difference between "kun", "san", and "chan"?
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Old 2010-09-19, 01:11   Link #3162
Hooves
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
What's the difference between "kun", "san", and "chan"?
Spoiler for San:

Spoiler for Sama:

Spoiler for Kun:

Spoiler for Chan:
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Last edited by Hooves; 2010-09-19 at 01:46.
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Old 2010-09-19, 01:18   Link #3163
thevil1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
You know, I always wondered that myself! I thought "chan" was used for when you were a baby since you could not exactly announce the "k" or "s" correctly. So "chan" works perfectly.
The reason I'm wondering is because "Oniichan" (brother) is for a male, and Oniisan (sister) is female. But in all the Animes' I've watched, they scramble it around. A female will sometimes have the 'chan', and a male 'san' etc... The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with formalities. ie: Family name (more formal) is one where is first name (close friends) is another.

But it just keeps bothering me that I don't know. SOMEONE HELP.
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Old 2010-09-19, 01:43   Link #3164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
The reason I'm wondering is because "Oniichan" (brother) is for a male, and Oniisan (sister) is female. But in all the Animes' I've watched, they scramble it around. A female will sometimes have the 'chan', and a male 'san' etc... The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with formalities. ie: Family name (more formal) is one where is first name (close friends) is another.

But it just keeps bothering me that I don't know. SOMEONE HELP.
Whether you call an older brother onii-san, onii-chan, or onii-sama is a completely personal choice, usually reflecting your relationship with him (I don't think the last one is horribly popular though, seeing how siblings act ). You'd probably use different honorifics for each of your brothers if you have more than one (e.g. calling your oldest brother onii-chan, and your second oldest onii-san). btw onee-san is older sister, not onii-san. San is not a male honorific.

I think it'll be easier to see if I write it.
Quote:
お兄さん・おにいさん・onii-san・older brother
お姉さん・おねえさん・onee-san・older sister
See how the difference of gender is in the "nee" or "nii", not in the honorific? The honorific is the same in both examples, being "san" in this case. And also, onii-san is only used to address your older brother directly; when talking about your brother to someone else, you'd say 私の兄 (わたしのあに) (watashi no ani). I've heard little kids use the term onii-san in conversation, but I personally think it's a bit childish (like using "Mom" instead of "my mom/mother" in conversation with someone other than your mother).

Last edited by Kudryavka; 2010-09-19 at 01:53.
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Old 2010-09-19, 01:45   Link #3165
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Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
The reason I'm wondering is because "Oniichan" (brother) is for a male, and Oniisan (sister) is female. But in all the Animes' I've watched, they scramble it around. A female will sometimes have the 'chan', and a male 'san' etc... The only thing I can think of is that it has to do with formalities. ie: Family name (more formal) is one where is first name (close friends) is another.

But it just keeps bothering me that I don't know. SOMEONE HELP.
You're mishearing. Oneesan(chan) is older sister and Oniisan(chan) is older brother. The description Hooves posted for the honorifics is pretty accurate.
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Old 2010-09-19, 08:48   Link #3166
thevil1
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So in simple terms, san, chan, and kun are basically all the same? What about if your talking first and last names?
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Old 2010-09-19, 11:58   Link #3167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
So in simple terms, san, chan, and kun are basically all the same? What about if your talking first and last names?
Whenever you meet a complete stranger and learn their name, you must always say their last name, if you say there first name, they acknowledge you as a friend, and it makes it pretty clear to everyone that you two are buds. But if you say the person's last name without them accepting it, it would be pretty disrespectful.

Thats how I think it goes.
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Old 2010-09-19, 12:40   Link #3168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hooves View Post
Spoiler for Kun:
I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoyo with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?
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Old 2010-09-19, 13:22   Link #3169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoyo with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?
Since Tomoyo is basically featured as the strongest female in the entire school. People refer her as -kun.

The male to male is "primarily" used, but its not used like that the entire time, so it differs at certain points. But as said in the -kun tag that it says. Some (masculine) females get called (name)-kun, which means that other females can say it, if its that term.
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Last edited by Hooves; 2010-09-19 at 13:37.
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Old 2010-09-19, 15:17   Link #3170
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What I meant was Tomoya Okazaki, not Tomoyo... (my bad for confusing you lol)
So the question should be...
I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoya with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?
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Old 2010-09-19, 15:25   Link #3171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
What I meant was Tomoya Okazaki, not Tomoyo... (my bad for confusing you lol)
Well it is easy to get confused by Tomoyo and Tomoya

Ok if its Tomoya's case, then Nagisa is using this to effect

Quote:
someone of high status to someone younger / lower status than them
Since Nagisa flunked the same grade a few times, she should be older then Tomoya. The male to male is as said above "primarily" used for the purpose of male to male, but it can be used for the other reasons in the tag as well.
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Old 2010-09-19, 16:12   Link #3172
Kudryavka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
What I meant was Tomoya Okazaki, not Tomoyo... (my bad for confusing you lol)
So the question should be...
I've noticed in Clannad Nagisa often refers to Sunohara with a san ending, and Tomoya with kun. If kun is male to male, then isn't her calling him kun wrong?
Kun is not male to male, anyone can use kun towards a male. I'll bet that Nagi calls Tomoya -kun b/c he's her *spoiler* (in the anime at least), and also because she's older. She's not terribly close to Sunohara, so she just calls him -san (she actually doesn't have to, since Sunohara is younger than her, but that's just how she is, she's terribly polite).

And if you're wondering why Sunohara and Tomoya don't use honorifics towards each other, it's because they're delinquents, and they have that weird love-hate relationship (they hang out, but they don't respect each other; Sunohara thinks they're friends, but Tomoya says otherwise. It's really complicated, lol).
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Old 2010-09-21, 21:37   Link #3173
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kun(くん:君),chan(ちゃん),san(さん),sama(さま:様),etc...... they are called "keishou(敬称)",which are used to express respect to him/her.
These nuance is different by which keishou are used

kun: this is mainly used to familiar male.
chan:this is mainly used to familiar female and young children.
san:this is used to the person you meet for the first time.this is also used to familiar person to express general respect.
sama:this is the most respectful word used to high-ranking person.
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Old 2010-09-22, 08:10   Link #3174
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"Sama" also refers to royalty or gods, examples being Kami-sama or O-sama. My mom's surname is 王 (meaning king) and while she was in Japan people would call her O-sama sometimes. I guess they couldn't help it.
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Old 2010-09-22, 11:08   Link #3175
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I find Japanese a fascinating language and although I am just a beginner and have a very long way to go, I hope to one day be able to converse with confidence and possibly a little eloquence.
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Old 2010-09-22, 11:49   Link #3176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeoXiao View Post
"Sama" also refers to royalty or gods, examples being Kami-sama or O-sama. My mom's surname is 王 (meaning king) and while she was in Japan people would call her O-sama sometimes. I guess they couldn't help it.
That makes sense, because in Higurashi No Naku Kara Ni, they keep always going back to, and refer to *spoiler*
Spoiler for spoiler:

Thanks for all your help, I think I understand it now.

One thing that I still have trouble with is the small words and characters that often fall after another word or letter. I had a native speaker try and explain it to me, and I still couldn't understand how they work. H・E・L・P
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Old 2010-09-22, 13:11   Link #3177
Raiga
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thevil1 View Post
Spoiler for spoiler:

Thanks for all your help, I think I understand it now.

One thing that I still have trouble with is the small words and characters that often fall after another word or letter. I had a native speaker try and explain it to me, and I still couldn't understand how they work. H・E・L・P
That would be Oyashiro-sama (there is no "yi" syllable in modern Japanese).

There are a couple kinds of small characters; the ones generally used are っ、ゃ、ゅ、ょ (other characters like the small versions of vowels are used in extended Katakana and informal writing/dialogue to indicate someone's shouting or drawing out a syllable).

っ is a tricky one so I'll save that for later. ゃゅょ are small versions of the y-column syllables and they combine with the い vowel sound syllables. It's much easier to give examples.

き = ki
きゃ = ki + small ya = kya
きゅ = ki + small yu = kyu
きょ = ki + small yo = kyo

に = ni
にゃ = ni + small ya = nya
にゅ = ni + small yu = nyu
にょ = ni + small yo = nyo

し and ち seem like exceptions due to English phonetics. They go:

し = shi
しゃ = sha (shya)
しゅ = shu (shyu)
しょ = sho (shyo)

ち = chi
ちゃ = cha (chya)
ちゅ = chu (chyu)
ちょ = cho (chyo)

(the romaji in parentheses is never used in any romanization standard that I know of; I only included them to make their relationship to the y-syllables a bit clearer. If you try to pronounce them you'll notice that the y-sound naturally slurs into the consonant)

The っ is a little tricky. It represents a "long consonant." By itself it represents a stoppage of air known as the "glottal stop" (you can look it up on Wikipedia). Otherwise, it extends the consonant that comes after it.

For stop consonants such as t, k, g, d, p, and b (consonants that involve stopping the air briefly and then releasing it) you simply extend the stop-- in other words, you hold the air in for a bit longer before letting it out. In romaji this is represented by doubling the consonant.

きと = kito
きっと = kitto

When your tongue rises up behind your teeth at the start of the "t" sound, all you do is hold your tongue there for a split second longer. The same goes for other words involving long stop consonants, such as はっぴゃく (happyaku; hold your lips together a bit longer at the beginning of the p) or いっかい (ikkai; hold the air a bit longer in the back of your throat at the start of the k).

For fricative consonants such as s and z (consonants that involve releasing a steady stream of air through the mouth) all you do is keep the consonant sound going a bit longer; i.e. "hiss" the s a bit.

いしょ = isho
いっしょ = issho

The っ is not used with m- or n-syllables, in which case the moraic ん is used, like in みんな (minna) or あんまり (anmari). Don't quote me on this, but I also can't remember ever seeing it in front of a g- or b-syllable, but I might be misremembering.

I think this post is long enough so I'll leave it at that. Hope that was helpful.
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Old 2010-09-22, 13:34   Link #3178
thevil1
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raiga View Post
Spoiler for TL;DR... J/K I did read it, it's just too long to quote Thanks...:

That makes more sense to me the way you explained it, can you have the accent marks in with those combos? , 。(up on top) etc...
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Old 2010-09-22, 14:12   Link #3179
Raiga
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Well, you shouldn't really think of them as accent marks because they don't mark any sort of accent. The dakuten and handakuten mark voicing.

By voicing I mean this: the consonant "k" is pronounced unvoiced or "breathily." That is, you make the shape with your mouth and force air through, but you don't really use your vocal cords. On the other hand, when you vibrate your vocal cords but use the same mouth motions, you get the consonant "g." In the end, however, it's just another consonant; there's no reason for it to behave differently from any other consonant.

Hence you could also say ぎゃぎゅぎょ and ぴゃぴゅぴょ etc.

Wikipedia has a comprehensive table of all legal hiragana and hiragana combinations, and the http://nihongoresources.com grammar book also provides an excellent introduction to Japanese phonetics.

Here's the page on Hiragana. It even has audio files to teach you the pronunciation.
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Old 2010-09-25, 23:47   Link #3180
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そです・・・ Next question! 
Can someone give me a run down on Kanji please?
I have Hiragana and Katakana down pat, and can read it (at a 1st grader's level), but I notice that Kanji is really holding me back. I have a textbook, but it doesn't go over Kanji the way it goes over Hiragana and Katakana.
ありがと
Also one thing I've been wondering is when I'm reading Japanese, I have trouble noticing when words begin and end since they don't seem to have.

(私はこのトピックで多くの質問を求めるのが怖い。私は、トロールを考慮する必要はありません 。)
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