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Old 2007-06-13, 23:13   Link #821
FatPianoBoy
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
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Ah yes, the Japanese' bizarre disuse of commas. English relies heavily on proper comma usage, so it's a bit disorienting sometimes. They tend to omit particles at times, too (I assumed they did that with の here), so I wasn't sure which was the culprit.
I was beginning to wonder what the heck he was translating that someone wanted to tie up Chidori's hands...
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Old 2007-06-13, 23:48   Link #822
krysinello
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lol. I am translating off one of the FMP arts from COMO. I did the next line, it was harder cause the Kanji is hard to make out but I did well enough to make to pretty accurately get it.(thank god lol) Basically "His sudden words make Kaname's ears go hot." I'll posy a pic of it when imgeshack decides to work -___-
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Old 2007-06-15, 06:47   Link #823
Mueti
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I never translate in my head. In my opinion it makes much more sense to just grasp the context in Japanese without needing to switch to another language. Of course you have no choice if you don't know the words.
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Old 2007-06-15, 06:56   Link #824
krysinello
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I am trying to do that, I am just finding it difficult to understand without the use of english to be honest.
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Old 2007-06-15, 11:04   Link #825
Vexx
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yeah, I wasted time in a kanji workshop one time because the philosophy was to teach the meaning in english rather than directly in japanese or chinese...
ouch.

Getting to the point of *skipping* that middle step:
symbol->english->japanese or japanese->english->understanding

so that its just japanese->understanding or the reverse

is a wonderful thing. It doesn't happen all at once but in chunks.

Think about it --- many people when they hear "tsunami" don't translate "tidal wave" before picturing a big wave anymore. "sushi" doesn't first translate mentally as "stuff on rice" before a pictorial image. English is full of import words as well --- think of it as just importing more words into your head and re-organizing the framework you drape them on.
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Old 2007-06-15, 20:10   Link #826
krysinello
Sousuke Sagara
 
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Actually when I do think tsunami, I think of tidal wave. I am finding it difficult, even things like Konnichiwa, I have to think of it as hello in my head for it to register as a greeting. Its probably the hardest thing of learning a new language, getting past your main language barriers, which is proving to be extremely hard, for me anyways.

ATM I am still trying to get all the katakana, proving to be difficult cause of
a)IT work
b)Alot of them look alike
c)Katakana doesn't seem to appear to common in the practice things I'm using. After I learn all the kata, can do them right etc, I'll have to try to get the grammer, use of particles etc. They confuse me a bit too, always have. Well then the Kanji. thats going to be like me, with no weapons, facing against a firing squad. Well I determined, Full Metal Panic Novels are at the stake here.(Basically, Kanji is looking like a huge mithical monster and I have no mithical weapons, hence the prospect of getting to Kanji is slowing me cause Im scared I'll fail)
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Old 2007-06-15, 21:52   Link #827
WanderingKnight
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In all honesty, the course you want to follow is not what I would recommend. If the writing is too complicated for you at first, go for the grammar. It's the most important part of the language, and the hardest to fully grasp. To the writing, you can get used to--it only requires memory. For the grammar, you need to fully understand it to realize what's going on.
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Old 2007-06-15, 23:22   Link #828
krysinello
Sousuke Sagara
 
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Well grammer is what I'm doing after I remember all the sounds and their symbols. The thing I'm doing is using Japanese examples, so I need to be able to read the hiragana and Katakana. The teaching of grammer is done in the writings where it teaches by example. For eg: ボブ: アリスは学生?- Are you (Alice) student?(Kanji in brackets), This is used in teaching the particles, and how the particle はis used and more importantly, how it is pronounced wa only when used as a particle. I'm not sure if it is the right way to learn, but it makes sence what is said about limiting the use of Romaji in learning, besides it helps me in remembering and reading, which my memory skills suck so it does seem to help me out in that aspect.
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Old 2007-06-15, 23:53   Link #829
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
アリスは学生?
That's kinda way too informal. You're missing the verb (desu) and the question marker (ka). See what I mean by grammar? ;P
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Old 2007-06-15, 23:57   Link #830
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krysinello View Post
For eg: ボブ: アリスは学生?- Are you (Alice) student?(Kanji in brackets)
You're asking if Alice is a student, not "Are you Alice?"

"Are you Alice" would be more like "Kimi, Alice-to iu gakusei desu ka?"

^^Actually, that translates more like "Are you the student known as Alice/Are you Alice, the student?"

(Sorry, my work computer doesn't offer Japanese language input)
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:01   Link #831
Nagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage View Post
You're asking if Alice is a student, not "Are you Alice?"

"Are you Alice" would be more like "Kimi, Alice-to iu gakusei desu ka?"

^^Actually, that translates more like "Are you the student known as Alice/Are you Alice, the student?"

(Sorry, my work computer doesn't offer Japanese language input)
I think, both of the TL are acceptable.
It could be "Is Alice a student?" or "Alice, are you a student?"
Though, "アリスって子、学生?" does make more sense when you want to ask "Is Alice a student".
in most case, "アリスは学生?" would be "Alice, are you a student?"
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:03   Link #832
FatPianoBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagato View Post
I think, both of the TL are acceptable.
アリスは学生? could be "Is Alice a student?"
or "Alice, are you a student?"
They are. The issue is the situation and the appropriate level of politeness.
You will screw yourself in real conversation without a good grasp of politeness/social heirarchy.
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:04   Link #833
krysinello
Sousuke Sagara
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
That's kinda way too informal. You're missing the verb (desu) and the question marker (ka). See what I mean by grammar? ;P
I don't know, you know more about this then me, but this is at the start of the lesson teaching about the particles and not too much formal grammar yet, which could be why its left out. I know about desu formal, ka question marker etc but the teaching of particles is very early in the course, meaning that could be why proper language aint used.

Give your opinions on it and I'll change if somethings terribly wrong, I dont want to screw this up after all.

EDIT: Polite form comes later, in the Essential Grammar bit, I'm currently getting into basic grammer.
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:15   Link #834
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Give your opinions on it and I'll change if somethings terribly wrong, I dont want to screw this up after all.
You won't be "screwing it up"... the thing is, that if you start with verbless phrases, you might find a bit of trouble understanding the grammar at first. The basic verb, desu ("to be") is essential to start learning the basic grammar structure. Of course, Japanese people tend to elide a lot of words when they speak, but first you must learn the full sentence.

The grammatical structure is: Main topic (wa) + Subject (ga, you'll see that later) + Verb modifiers (ni, de, e) + Direct Object (wo) (+ Predicative Complement) + Verb. At a basic level, you should at least start by learning the basic structure: Main topic (wa) + Predicative Complement (no particle) + Verb. It's only to help you grasp the basics of it, and see where are the verbs placed, etcetera.
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:20   Link #835
Nagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
They are. The issue is the situation and the appropriate level of politeness.
You will screw yourself in real conversation without a good grasp of politeness/social heirarchy.
Politeness, eh?
Well, I myself usually use the desu/masu, a normal ( I think) politeness level. But in reality it's very rare people use that kind of conversation, except for very formal event.
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:24   Link #836
FatPianoBoy
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Originally Posted by Nagato View Post
Politeness, eh?
Well, I myself usually use the desu/masu, a normal ( I think) politeness level. But in reality it's very rare people use that kind of conversation, except for very formal event.
Meeting people for the first time, talking to people you don't know, addressing a group... these are all situations where polite speech is typically used.

Even if you don't use it often, it's important that it's used when appropriate if you don't want to carry the 'baka gaijin' sign on your back.
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Old 2007-06-16, 00:35   Link #837
Nagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FatPianoBoy View Post
Meeting people for the first time, talking to people you don't know, addressing a group... these are all situations where polite speech is typically used.

Even if you don't use it often, it's important that it's used when appropriate if you don't want to carry the 'baka gaijin' sign on your back.
baka gaijin, ne. I agree with you that this is important thing that Japanese themselves started to forget.

I don't know whether my society is going crazy or what. But seriously, even I for first time come to baito, the leader used only that ~da level of politeness, not even desu/masu. And I think I've never heard a real conversation with that gozaimasu, ikagadeshouka, and gozonjidesuka, etc etc. And seems like people started to think that the importance of that kind of politeness is merely a myth.
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Old 2007-06-16, 01:16   Link #838
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
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Age: 57
That would be a true tragedy .... both culturally and linguistically.

I have seen some articles that the pendulum may be swinging though .... apparently the very young Japanese are starting to rebel against "the machine" by returning to traditional clothing, speech, haunts, etc.
I don't know early the trend is though...
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Old 2007-06-16, 03:05   Link #839
krysinello
Sousuke Sagara
 
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So you think its a good idea for me to learn the grammar structure first, I thought the use of particles would be more ideal but I'll take your word. I am using www.guidetojapanese.org as my study reference so next step according to them is:
Google this site forum only
Have anything to say about the guide?
Go to the Grammar Guide Forum!
Or maybe you want to work on it yourself?
Then go to the Grammar Guide Wiki!

Quote:
Table of Contents


3. Basic Grammar
* Expressing State-of-Being
o State-of-Being Practice Exercises
* Introduction to Particles (は、も、が)
o 「は、も、が」 Particle Exercises
* Adjectives
o Adjective Practice Exercises
* Verb Basics
o Verb Practice Exercises
* Negative Verbs
o Negative Verb Practice Exercises
* Past Tense
o Past Verb Practice Exercises
* Particles used with verbs (を、に、へ、で)
* Transitive and Intransitive Verbs
* Descriptive Subordinate Clauses and Sentence Order
* Noun-related Particles (と、や、とか、の)
* Using Adverbs and Gobi
Then after that Essential Grammer
Quote:
# Essential Grammar

* Polite Form and Verb Stems (~です、~ます)
* Addressing People
* The Question Marker (か)
* Compound Sentences (て-form、から、ので、のに、が、けど、し、~たりする)
* Other uses of the te-form (~ている、~てある、~ておく、~ていく、~てくる)
* Potential Form
* Using する and なる with the に particle (~[よう]になる/する)
* Conditionals (と、なら、ば、たら)
* Expressing "must" or "have to" (~だめ、~いけない、~ならない、~ても)
* Desire and Suggestions (たい、欲しい、volitional、~たらどう)
* Performing an action on a subordinate clause (と、って)
* Defining and Describing (という)
* Trying something out or attempting to do something (~てみる、volitional+とする)
* Giving and Receiving (あげる、やる、くれる、もらう)
* Making requests (~ください、~ちょうだい、~なさい、command form)
* Numbers and Counting
* Wrapping up section 4 and more gobi
What do you think of that and is it the right way to go. According to what you have said though, it might be better for me to learn polite Japanese first though, then sentence structure and particles etc.
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Old 2007-06-16, 09:25   Link #840
TigerII
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I have a question. Within a few months I will be trying to learn a new language. I know English, Spanish, and am working on German. Spanish and German are not that hard and I was thinking about trying to learn a harder language. I am going to choose between Russian and Japanese. The problem for me is if I try and learn Japanese, I will be completely on my own with it. My university does not offer any courses with Japanese and there are no private tutors around me(Living in the South of the United States does have its downsides). I was wondering if it would be possible to learn it by myself using language software, etc.

I don't really need to completely master the language, just enough to get by when I go fishing in Japan. Also being able to read light novels or mangas that are not being translated would be a nice bonus.

Russian is also a hard language, but I have a friend from Siberia who told me if I wanted to learn, he could help me out. So with it, I would not be completely alone.
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