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Old 2007-09-13, 00:08   Link #1001
aohige
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Join Date: Jul 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperlion View Post
How many Kanji do I have to know to read properly? I probably know the meaning of about 40 kanji, really basic stuff like ten(sky or heaven I guess), ai(love), and haku(white)
In order for you to be able to read an average literature, magazine, or newspaper, you need to be able to read around 3000 kanji used in every day life.
Which is the same as second-class rating in the kanken (national kanji recoginition exam) testing.
An average Japanese is around this level.

First-class rating, which is said to be ideal for those who study literacy in universities, requires knowledge of up to 6000 kanji.
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Old 2007-09-13, 00:18   Link #1002
Terrestrial Dream
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige View Post
In order for you to be able to read an average literature, magazine, or newspaper, you need to be able to read around 3000 kanji used in every day life.
Which is the same as second-class rating in the kanken (national kanji recoginition exam) testing.
An average Japanese is around this level.

First-class rating, which is said to be ideal for those who study literacy in universities, requires knowledge of up to 6000 kanji.
That seems pretty overkill, but not that surprising. I could probably learn 3000 maybe in 7 year or so if I study right now.
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Old 2007-09-13, 01:10   Link #1003
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Autumn Demon View Post
ん!!!

Is there any way of knowing when ん is silent/nasalized like in 本 (ほん), ごきげんよう, 金曜日 (きんようび), and 千円 (せんえん)?
I've heard ん is always pronounced as 'm' when a 'b' or 'p' come after it. Is there a rule like that for when ん is silent? Or do you just have to memorize special cases?
It's never really silent, but nasalized... I guess speaking preference. As you get more comfortable with the language and speak faster, it'll naturally occur.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iamtetsuo
Hey how come my hiragana symbols aren't showing up? Grr.
Are you using a browser that supports Japanese, and the encoding is either set to Unicode or Autoselect? (I just checked, for some reason mine is in Japanese Autodetection mode... I never set that.) That'd be the most likely reason.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aohige
In order for you to be able to read an average literature, magazine, or newspaper, you need to be able to read around 3000 kanji used in every day life.
What one of my instructors had told us is that we'd need to know 1,500 (or perhaps 2,000, can't remember clearly) kanji to be able to read a newspaper (of course, there'd be holes in our understanding and reading ability there). According to the Japan Foundation's Japanese Language Proficiency Test, Level 1, which is considered sufficient for living in Japan, requires around 2000 (or 1,926 to be exact).

Further, a Chinese teacher who is the instructor for my calligraphy class claimed that people in China only need to know about 3,000 characters to get by (my girlfriend has had him as a Mandarin instructor and claims that he likes to make Chinese seem easier than it really is, in an effort to get more people to take it - she suspects that 3,000 is a low estimate). I'd imagine that Japanese require less Chinese characters than the Chinese. I believe you're more knowledgable about this than I am, aohige, but I did find the disparities in the numbers that we've heard to be rather interesting.
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Old 2007-09-13, 01:25   Link #1004
SSJiffy
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What's the difference in saying 'I am hungry' between 'onaka ga suita' and 'onaka ga suite imasu'?
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Old 2007-09-13, 03:10   Link #1005
iamtetsuo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Are you using a browser that supports Japanese, and the encoding is either set to Unicode or Autoselect? (I just checked, for some reason mine is in Japanese Autodetection mode... I never set that.) That'd be the most likely reason.
Yah my browser supports Japanese (I can see everyone elses hiragana). Lets see if switching to unicode works:


あいうえお

Hmm that was odd, but I got it to work.
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Old 2007-09-13, 03:53   Link #1006
darksider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJiffy View Post
What's the difference in saying 'I am hungry' between 'onaka ga suita' and 'onaka ga suite imasu'?
That's a very difficult question!
Well...

お腹がすいた onaka ga suita
(お腹がすきました) onaka ga suki mashita - (polite language)
お腹がすいています onaka ga suite imasu (polite language, probably)

Ah, I think, let's see, aside from whether they are polite language or not, the latter one describes the current condition, and the former one refers to the transition presently going on... or no, not just presently, sorta 'present perfect progressive' thing. Like, say, the latter one is "I've been (and still am) hungry" and the former one should be like "I'm getting hungry" or something.
Well... I think I don't understand much what I just wrote...
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Old 2007-09-13, 04:18   Link #1007
aohige
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post

What one of my instructors had told us is that we'd need to know 1,500 (or perhaps 2,000, can't remember clearly) kanji to be able to read a newspaper (of course, there'd be holes in our understanding and reading ability there). According to the Japan Foundation's Japanese Language Proficiency Test, Level 1, which is considered sufficient for living in Japan, requires around 2000 (or 1,926 to be exact).

Further, a Chinese teacher who is the instructor for my calligraphy class claimed that people in China only need to know about 3,000 characters to get by (my girlfriend has had him as a Mandarin instructor and claims that he likes to make Chinese seem easier than it really is, in an effort to get more people to take it - she suspects that 3,000 is a low estimate). I'd imagine that Japanese require less Chinese characters than the Chinese. I believe you're more knowledgable about this than I am, aohige, but I did find the disparities in the numbers that we've heard to be rather interesting.
Well, the diffrence is that I went to a Japanese school, whereas you went to learn Japanese as a secondary language.
The standard they expect you to meet is going to be vastly diffrent.
Of course you can get by every day life with half the understanding of kanji of an average Japanese, just as you would in any country.
But the educational standard suggested for a native is not the same, of course.
2000+ is average for a highschool grad, who never went to a college or university.

The national kanji recognition test shows the following ranking.
1st level: 6000+ (highly educated adult)
pre-1st level: 3000 (An average educated Japanese with colledge degree generally falls under here), 80%+ correct answers
2nd level: approx 2000~3000 (An average highschool graduate), around 80% correct
pre-2nd level: 70% correct
3rd level: 1600, 70% correct (An average 2nd grade junior high. 14th grade)

And so on.
As you can see, what your teacher is expecting from you is to get to highschool level of understanding, not necessary college.
Which is pretty logical to me, considering that it's a secondary language and not a native. Your teacher isn't incorrect, don't worry.

That being said, I'm most likely in the kanken 2nd class level, probably around 2500-2800.
I was never a good student in kokugo.

On a related note, one of the biggest modern day problem is the ability to read the kanji, but not being able to write them anymore.
I seriously doubt I can write half of what I can read anymore. This recent problem is largely due to relying on the computer typing to help out spelling, and in this day and age... I hardly ever have to manually write most of the kanji anymore.
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Last edited by aohige; 2007-09-13 at 04:40.
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Old 2007-09-13, 07:27   Link #1008
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
On a related note, one of the biggest modern day problem is the ability to read the kanji, but not being able to write them anymore.
I've found that to be a huge problem when learning, too. Luckily in the Nihongo Nouryoku Shiken you don't need to write anything
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Old 2007-09-13, 11:25   Link #1009
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darksider View Post
That's a very difficult question!
Well...

お腹がすいた onaka ga suita
(お腹がすきました) onaka ga suki mashita - (polite language)
お腹がすいています onaka ga suite imasu (polite language, probably)

Ah, I think, let's see, aside from whether they are polite language or not, the latter one describes the current condition, and the former one refers to the transition presently going on... or no, not just presently, sorta 'present perfect progressive' thing. Like, say, the latter one is "I've been (and still am) hungry" and the former one should be like "I'm getting hungry" or something.
Well... I think I don't understand much what I just wrote...
You got it pretty much right. The first utilizes a "casual verb ending" for the -te form with existence (imasu). The third is more formal. The second one .... well, mashita is "past tense" so I'll call it "past towards the present".

Just be sure and smile a lot while rubbing your stomach
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Old 2007-09-28, 21:04   Link #1010
Autumn Demon
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How would you write the name Tohsaka (as in Tohsaka Rin from Fate/Stay Night) in hiragana?

This romanization seems odd to me because I thought you could only have H's if they were followed by a vowel:
は ha
ひ hi
ふ hu/fu
へ he
ほ ho

Could 'toh' perhaps be 'too' or 'tou'?
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Old 2007-09-28, 21:36   Link #1011
Nagato
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^ Yup her name is 遠坂凛 (とおさか りん/Toosaka Rin). But Tohsaka as in Ohno(大野), etc is pretty common especially for name. can't recall about the name of this romanization system atm; just google "Japanese romanization".
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Old 2007-10-01, 02:11   Link #1012
SSJiffy
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Doing a presentation of myself in Japanese 4, here's what I've got so far:

私はディアス ラウルと言います。十月に二十さいです。出身はアメリカのカリフォルニアです。メキシコ人で す。せんこうはLALSてす。日本語の勉強はカリフォルニア大学サンタクルーズで一年前にはじめました。し ゅみはサンタクルーズで三百メータまで海てす。マトさんとコリさんとロハンさんとルーミングを しています。

What I'm trying to say in Japanese, in English:

I'm called Raul Diaz. In October I'll be 20 years old. I come from California, US. I'm Mexican. My major is Latin American Latino Studies (LALS). I began studying Japanese a year ago at the University of California Santa Cruz. My residence is in Santa Cruz, 300 meters from the beach.

Any corrections or suggestions are welcome.
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Last edited by SSJiffy; 2007-10-01 at 02:12. Reason: Sleepy ._.
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Old 2007-10-01, 02:45   Link #1013
darksider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJiffy View Post
Doing a presentation of myself in Japanese 4, here's what I've got so far:

私はディアス ラウルと言います。十月に二十さいです。出身はアメリカのカリフォルニアです。メキシコ人で す。せんこうはLALSてす。日本語の勉強はカリフォルニア大学サンタクルーズで一年前にはじめました。し ゅみはサンタクルーズで三百メータまで海てす。マトさんとコリさんとロハンさんとルーミングを しています。

What I'm trying to say in Japanese, in English:

I'm called Raul Diaz. In October I'll be 20 years old. I come from California, US. I'm Mexican. My major is Latin American Latino Studies (LALS). I began studying Japanese a year ago at the University of California Santa Cruz. My residence is in Santa Cruz, 300 meters from the beach.

Any corrections or suggestions are welcome.
Corrections... hmm....

私はディアス・ラウルと言います。十月で二十歳(さい)になります。出身はアメリカのカリフォルニアです。 メキシコ人です。専攻(せんこう)はLALSです。日本語の勉強はカリフォルニア大学サンタクルーズ校(こ う)で一年前にはじめました。私の住居(じゅうきょ)はサンタクルーズで、海まで三百メーターのところです 。

(And the last sentence is missing in the original English)

Like this?

And you can use Arabic numerals in a Japanese sentence if it is written horizontally. Like "10月で20歳になります。"
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Old 2007-10-01, 03:04   Link #1014
Ledgem
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Going to sleep soon so I didn't read through the entire thing, but my preference is to, rather than use と言います when giving your name, to use と申します. 言う is not technically wrong, but 申す is better in formal situations, and perhaps overall, from my understanding.
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Old 2007-10-01, 03:57   Link #1015
darksider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Going to sleep soon so I didn't read through the entire thing, but my preference is to, rather than use と言います when giving your name, to use と申します. 言う is not technically wrong, but 申す is better in formal situations, and perhaps overall, from my understanding.
I'd say that's too formal (or, too classic) and it may sound unnatural, so I wouldn't use that phrase unless I really have to show respect for something.

EDIT: I think that saying "私は○○と言います" insted of "○○です" is polite enough in most cases, although it may not be enough at a job interview or something like that.
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Old 2007-10-02, 00:39   Link #1016
SSJiffy
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Ok. Earlier this evening my roommate greeted me when he returned home from school with an ohayou. I went on to say "Asa ja nai. Ima, konya (今夜) desu. 'konban wa' to iimasu." Did I properly state the error and correct what he should of said?
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Last edited by SSJiffy; 2007-10-02 at 00:43. Reason: Slight clarification.
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Old 2007-10-02, 02:46   Link #1017
Vexx
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mmmmmmm, close enough. He should have said 'kombanwa' and "not morning, is night" I think is passable. The last line doesn't sound right to me but I'm too unconscious to think of a better way.
Often what may seem to be fragmentary awkward japanese is actually just casual lazy japanese
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Old 2007-10-02, 03:19   Link #1018
Nagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJiffy View Post
Ok. Earlier this evening my roommate greeted me when he returned home from school with an ohayou. I went on to say "Asa ja nai. Ima, konya (今夜) desu. 'konban wa' to iimasu." Did I properly state the error and correct what he should of said?
「おはよう」じゃありません。今は夜ですよ。だ か ら、「こんばんは」ですよ。夜はまだまだ長いですよ、 てへへ。
Like this?

はぁー、何やってんだ俺
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Old 2007-10-02, 13:58   Link #1019
FatPianoBoy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nagato View Post
「おはよう」じゃありません。今は夜ですよ。だ か ら、「こんばんは」ですよ。夜はまだまだ長いですよ、 てへへ。
Like this?
... XD
That sounds like a woman from a renai game or something
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Old 2007-10-02, 14:45   Link #1020
Vexx
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Japanese guy-talk is a bit more... actually, its a lot less ... with more growls.
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