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Old 2007-12-17, 11:07   Link #1141
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaoi_Daisuki View Post
Hey guys, do you have this similar problems?

I just started learning Japanese a month ago, i could pretty much write all the hiragana now but i could only write in this way ka ki ko ke ko, sa shi su se so and so on pretty fast, so if someone randomly say a hiragana, i will need like 5 sec to think and write it down hmm. also is someone chuck me a sentence of hiragana it takes quite sometime for me to actually read it in mind or aloud. so did i actually memorize the hiragana or something? sometime seems to be awefully wrong -_-

also im trying to learn some vocabs, for example if someone point me a fish i cant answer that in japanese, but if someone ask me what is sakana i know that is fish -_-

holy, this is getting frustrating and at the same time entertaining. . lmao
Welcome to the wondrous plumber's nightmare that is the Human Brain. Every person learns different but think back to how you learned your native language -- by immersion. Read the very young children's books daily - your library should have an international section.

Myself, I found a hybrid method -- I understand the grammatical structure and rules *first* for a language. Then it is a matter of adding vocabulary: people will often hear me muttering in Japanese or pulling out my pocket dictionary. Nouns come quicker, verbs take a bit longer. I have to read/practice every single day or it starts to fade: the brain is a voracious recycler of neurons --- grab that neuron, he isn't using it enough for Japanese. If you can start to visualize things in your head in japanese in parallel with your native language rather than first one then the other --- big step forward.
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Old 2007-12-17, 11:59   Link #1142
siya
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I'm taking Japanese in school, most seem about right, I can post some notes that I have later, cause they're all at home and I'm at school
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Old 2007-12-17, 12:29   Link #1143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Myself, I found a hybrid method -- I understand the grammatical structure and rules *first* for a language. Then it is a matter of adding vocabulary: people will often hear me muttering in Japanese or pulling out my pocket dictionary. Nouns come quicker, verbs take a bit longer. I have to read/practice every single day or it starts to fade: the brain is a voracious recycler of neurons --- grab that neuron, he isn't using it enough for Japanese. If you can start to visualize things in your head in japanese in parallel with your native language rather than first one then the other --- big step forward.
I can definitely relate to this. For any one else who can, you might consider the book Japanese Step by Step : An Innovative Approach to Speaking and Reading Japanese by Gene Nishi. There is, perhaps, nothing more beautiful in my mind than seeing grammar depicted as flow charts. Good, though certainly not for every one.

I didn't find it as handy as Tae Kim's Guide to Japanese, though, which I see as not only a better overall reference, but certainly better suited to a general audience of folks who lack the "engineer gene" (ie, those who DON'T find grammar depicted as flow charts beautiful ).
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Old 2007-12-17, 15:06   Link #1144
tripperazn
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Can anyone direct me a web reference with readings and examples for the more commonly used kanji? As useful as Rikaichan is, it's pretty much a crutch and isn't really helping me learn kanji. Thanks!
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Old 2007-12-17, 15:17   Link #1145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Can anyone direct me a web reference with readings and examples for the more commonly used kanji? As useful as Rikaichan is, it's pretty much a crutch and isn't really helping me learn kanji. Thanks!
I'm not quite sure if it's what you're looking for, but Denshi Jisho is an excellent lookup system that presents data from just about all the electronic data compilation available from Monash University's Japanese department, including readings, English and Spanish dictionary, frequency information, and example sentences--not to mention indices and classifications to reference other dictionaries.
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Old 2007-12-17, 15:50   Link #1146
richvh
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On thing I found useful was to copy text I was reading online into a text file - not by copy and pasting, but by actually typing it in. I would be using Rikaichan to get the reading when I wasn't sure, and gradually there were fewer and fewer things I needed Rikaichan for.

Memorizing kanji readings is _not_ a very good path to Japanese literacy (nor, indeed, all that useful.) You need to learn how to use them in context.
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Old 2007-12-18, 02:23   Link #1147
tripperazn
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Thanks guys! I actually have a pretty good system going here with richvh's novel as source material for prose, copying methodology, and actively looking things up with Denshi Jisho.
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Old 2007-12-18, 06:55   Link #1148
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WanderingKnight View Post
と, besides meaning "and", is a particle that indicates that the preceding statement is a quote of some sort. In this case, imagine "onehp" between quotation marks and perhaps you'll get the gist of it. Then again, "quoted" statements are very, very common in Japanese, and are not used like in most (if not all) Western languages.
More to the point, it's a quotative particle that marks the preceding phrase as subordinate to what follows. It can be quoted speech (thus functioning as "quotation marks" as above), or be used as "that" in the context of a conjunctive particle, e.g. 田中さんはいい人だ思う, "I think that Tanaka is a good person". (Unfortunately for Japanese speakers learning English, the word "that" is frequently dropped in this context, and the subordinate clause is thus implied only by context.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by onehp View Post
このおてら、ゆうめいな <- what is the の for? I frequently see it in some informal sentences
It's part of the explanatory predicate, which takes the (uninflected) form of "[na] no da" ("na" is only used when the final word of the main clause is a noun or -na adjective). In the case you cite above, the speaker is female, and drops "da" altogether, leaving "no" at the end. The common contraction for men in the informal form is "n'da," though the "no" is often contracted to "n" in more polite speech as well, except in the most formal circumstances. And here in Osaka Prefecture, it's said as "nen".

As for the meaning itself, it's highly dependent on context, but usually the person is giving information to supplement a previous assertion, or making a statement that explains an apparent situation. (In this case, however, the person is wrong and is informed of such by the others. It's still hard for me, as a non-native speaker, to pinpoint the exact reason, but in phrasing her initial statement the way she did, she's probably either indicating that it's "what the guidebook says," or explaining over the others' disappointment why she wanted to see the temple which is quite deserted.)
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Old 2007-12-18, 21:23   Link #1149
onehp
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How should I say:

1) I already have this thing -?> このことは私もいます
2) How do I do this? -?> これをどうしますか

Is the "u" faded in "zu" like sometimes "u" is faded in "su"
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Old 2007-12-18, 22:20   Link #1150
richvh
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1) こと is an abstract thing, a generic physical thing is もの. Also, only animate objects take いる, inanimate objects take ある. The "already" adverb is もう (long o sound), not も (short o sound.)
わたしはもうこのものがあります, I think. (Or わたしはもうこのものをもっています, to use a different verb.)
2 looks good to me.

"u" (and "i") only gets devoiced when following an unvoiced consonant at the end of a sentence, or between unvoiced consonants, so no, the "u" of "zu" does not get devoiced.
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Old 2007-12-19, 12:27   Link #1151
Mueti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richvh View Post
Memorizing kanji readings is _not_ a very good path to Japanese literacy (nor, indeed, all that useful.) You need to learn how to use them in context.
It's the fastest way for me. Of course, reading and seeing the kanji used in context is necessary as well, and maybe even more important. But by reading alone, without having them learned before, I'll only be able to memorize the most commonly used kanji, and only their most common readings on top of that.
Actually, what I'd recommend is writing. Not typing but actual writing, by hand. By writing kanji down lots of times they become incredibly more decipherable when I come across them while reading.
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Old 2007-12-19, 14:31   Link #1152
Dxon
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Ive almost done hiragana table and now just finishing touches of learning it.
But my question is.

how do you people write japanese in here while its a english site?! O_o
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Old 2007-12-19, 14:35   Link #1153
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
how do you people write japanese in here while its a english site?! O_o
Eh, you can type Japanese in any kind of website, provided it's got the proper encoding set. vBulletin is Unicode so you can type in any kind of writing system.

Remember that to actually type Japanese characters you need to have Japanese fonts installed in your PC and a sort of IME to switch between one language and another.
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Old 2007-12-19, 14:39   Link #1154
richvh
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I use the Japanese IME for Windows XP (best installation instructions I've found) and the Firefox browser (IE messes up when you try to enter Japanese text on an ISO-8859-1 page.)
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Old 2007-12-19, 15:37   Link #1155
Dxon
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ok i got my keyboard in japanese but still no characters. How do you do it for Firefox then?
I got firefox too.
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Old 2007-12-19, 16:14   Link #1156
richvh
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Did you follow all the directions on that site?
Alt-left shift until you get JP in the language bar.
Alt-~ to switch between direct (alphabetic) input and kana input.
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Old 2007-12-19, 16:22   Link #1157
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dxon View Post
ok i got my keyboard in japanese but still no characters. How do you do it for Firefox then?
I got firefox too.
I did it for vista, but you have to go to "Input Mode" and select "Hiragana". Then you can actually type. Strike "aiueo" on your keyboard and you should get "あいうえお”.

Does anyone know the key input for the small versions of characters like "っ” except with "あいうえお”? It's sometimes needed for katakana and speech nuances.
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Old 2007-12-20, 02:12   Link #1158
Nagato
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^type l or x before any character you want to make small. So for っ you type ltu or xtu in alphabet input mode.
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Old 2007-12-20, 04:29   Link #1159
cyrandl
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Hi,

I dont know if its useful but to help myself while learning Hiragana/Katakana i wrote a small Application for training.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/kanatrain/
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Old 2007-12-20, 09:21   Link #1160
Dxon
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thanks it worked!
Now i can type japanese.
あいえうお
or something.. :P
さ~だ~ま~さ~し~
:D

Quote:
Originally Posted by cyrandl View Post
Hi,

I dont know if its useful but to help myself while learning Hiragana/Katakana i wrote a small Application for training.

http://sourceforge.net/projects/kanatrain/
About your kanatrainer. It really needs some testing. It seems like endless for the training and tests. I hit 143 and still didnt stop. Also at test when does the test stop? At 100?
Furthur its a good start.
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