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Old 2008-01-26, 13:13   Link #1301
bettyrawr
What is this rumpus?
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Um, I was just wondering about Japanese Honorifics.
Okay, I'm stupid so
I was wondering
What do;
-Jochan
-Boya
-Roshi
-Nechan
-Anesan
Mean.
and when is it acceptable to call someone by their first name instead of their second?

^^
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Old 2008-01-26, 16:02   Link #1302
richvh
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Join Date: Jul 2007
Ojousan, jouchan: girl, young woman.
Bouya: boy
Roushi: could be old priest/sage, or ronin/lordless samurai
Ane, oneesan, neechan: older sister (can also be used for any girl/young woman slightly older than the speaker.

As for when it's acceptable to call someone by their given name: when they tell you it is.
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Old 2008-01-29, 12:55   Link #1303
askia47
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はじめまして。askia47さんです。どぞよろしく。毎日、日本語を勉強します。でも、私の日本語が下手 です。もう、勉強になる。私は大学生です。

While im up to Genki vol 2. I still have a hard time retaining the grammar, any suggestions?

ありがとうございます。
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Old 2008-01-29, 13:55   Link #1304
darksider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post
はじめまして。askia47さんです。どぞよろしく。毎日、日本語を勉強します。でも、私の日本語が下手 です。もう、勉強になる。私は大学生です。

While im up to Genki vol 2. I still have a hard time retaining the grammar, any suggestions?

ありがとうございます。
Hello there, and although this is sort of off-topic, let me point a few things out.

First of all, you should never use honorific ("-san" in this case) for yourself, unless it is really needed to show your position in your office or something (or if you want to show intentionally that you are a self-important person).

「どぞよろしく」 sounds too broke It should be 「どうぞよろしく」 or something, though natives can sometimes intentionally use words like that.

And the sentence "私の日本語が下手です" - this is not too bad but somehow sounds unnatural. "私は日本語が下手です" or "私の日本語は下手です" should be better.
Then in the next sentence I don't see nominative(s) and I don't understand what you meant.

Well, that's all! I guess you still need practice but not bad, really.
I'm sorry I can't help you in choosing books or alternatives, and I can't find any witty words than the overtly banal "practice makes perfect" but I hope you'll find good ones!
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Old 2008-01-29, 14:52   Link #1305
Risaa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post
While im up to Genki vol 2. I still have a hard time retaining the grammar, any suggestions?
Genki genki! I still refer back to my genki textbooks often even though I'm past the levels they cover.

What I do to help with grammar, kanji, and vocabulary is write out paragraphs or short essays that encompass whatever grammar, kanji, or vocabulary I want to learn. I write them over and over until I've memorized the meaning and structures well enough that I don't need to refer to any outside material (primarily dictionary) to help understand any bit of the paragraphs. If there's something I don't understand, I keep looking it up each time I write it out. Things seem to stick better when I study this way, it's just too bad it's so time consuming - can't cram for tests using this method.
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Old 2008-01-29, 16:00   Link #1306
LiberLibri
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Wink 日本語における呼称

Quote:
Originally Posted by bettyrawr View Post
Um, I was just wondering about Japanese Honorifics.
Okay, I'm stupid so
I was wondering
What do;
-Jochan
-Boya
-Roshi
-Nechan
-Anesan
Mean.
and when is it acceptable to call someone by their first name instead of their second?

^^
Hello bettyrawr!

jochan [嬢ちゃん], or o-jochan [お嬢ちゃん] originally means a daughter of an upper-class family. "jo" for a lady, and "chan" functions just like "-ette" in English. Jochan also conveys sarcastic colour; innocent, naive, immature, etc.

boya [坊や] means a lad. "bo" is a priest. In old days boys' hair were short. People associated it with the priests' hairstyle. "ya" is a sign of intimacy (and of a little contempt). variant: joya [嬢や], baya [婆や], jiya [爺や].

roshi [老師] means a guru, a great teacher. It was originally a Chinese word, and used in a context related to something Chinese, e.g., martial arts.

nechan [姉ちゃん], or o-nechan [お姉ちゃん] means an elder sister. However, you can call any women older than you "nechan", as cathoric nuns call each other "sister".

anesan [姐さん] means an amazon; a brave, tough, independent, capable and (possibly) uncivlized woman. It also contains a sort of out-law nuance. Yakuza (japanese mafia) often use this word.

First name -- it depends on the situation. If you are in a business scene, you should avoid calling someone in the first name. If you are a student and you are talking to your professor, you must also call him/her in the second name. It doesn't depend on how long you have known each other; it depends on how "solemn" or "should-be-solemn" the relation between you two is. When you talk to your friends, you can call them in the first names no matter how short the friendship is.

Happy learning!
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Old 2008-01-29, 23:49   Link #1307
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post
While im up to Genki vol 2. I still have a hard time retaining the grammar, any suggestions?
As someone who has also tried Genki before, I recommend you get An Innovative Approach to Speaking and Learning Japanese, by Gene Nishi. I rarely encounter any of the "grammar points" brought up in Genki, while this book covers a lot in a comparatively short amount of pages. Also, google Tae Kim and his Japanese guide. These are both better than Genki, IMHO.

If you're in a class, then yeah, Genki is good because they really focus on speaking and verbal exercises. However, for self-study, I wouldn't really use it, too much fluff. It's also way too spread out. IIRC, there was this tiny little table on like...5 verbs in "keigo". That doesn't even scratch the surface of it and was totally useless for everything except confusing the entire class.

To "retain" grammar is something I find hard too. Try watching raw anime, it really forces you to focus on how the character phrase themselves, which is much closer to how Japanese should be phrased, not "cut and dry" from the textbook. The grammar will sink in since you are actively using it, and you will better grasp how to talk/write much more naturally. Look up every phrase you don't understand and write it down. If you watch anime, you can study at the same time. Eventually you won't even need the subs, interpreting dialogue yourself is the only way you're going to understand the show fully. It doesn't take very long. I would try Kimikiss ~pure rouge~ raws first, the script is almost childishly simple as far as grammar goes. CLANNAD is a step up, but still uses only everyday vocabulary.

Anyway, I would really recommend An Innovative Approach to Speaking and Learning Japanese, especially if you're a science major (the organization is almost appallingly clean and simple for a language book, grammar in flow charts, examples, followed by long verb lists, no pictures, or culture, or cute dialogues at all).

Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post
もう、勉強になる。私は大学生です。
The sentences as I understand it: Already, I am becoming study. I am a college student.

The first one doesn't make sense and I have no idea what you're trying to say. The second is stuffy, IMO. You really don't need the pronoun, since you already established that you're talking about yourself. I think 大学生です。or 今大学生です。 is better.

Like in English, you don't really respond to "What do you do?" (as in work? school? what kind?) with "I am a college student". More likely, you would say, "I'm in college right now".
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Last edited by tripperazn; 2008-01-30 at 00:06.
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Old 2008-01-30, 01:29   Link #1308
mandarb916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
The sentences as I understand it: Already, I am becoming study. I am a college student.

The first one doesn't make sense and I have no idea what you're trying to say. The second is stuffy, IMO. You really don't need the pronoun, since you already established that you're talking about yourself. I think 大学生です。or 今大学生です。 is better.
it can also be interpreted as "it's educational (for me)", in which case, there's no equivalent of the word "もう" in English. In this instance it's awkward, but it COULD be used in the same context as something like, "もう、最高!" Basically emphasizing an emotion or situation.
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Old 2008-01-30, 12:34   Link #1309
bettyrawr
What is this rumpus?
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
Hello bettyrawr!

jochan [嬢ちゃん], or o-jochan [お嬢ちゃん] originally means a daughter of an upper-class family. "jo" for a lady, and "chan" functions just like "-ette" in English. Jochan also conveys sarcastic colour; innocent, naive, immature, etc.

boya [坊や] means a lad. "bo" is a priest. In old days boys' hair were short. People associated it with the priests' hairstyle. "ya" is a sign of intimacy (and of a little contempt). variant: joya [嬢や], baya [婆や], jiya [爺や].

roshi [老師] means a guru, a great teacher. It was originally a Chinese word, and used in a context related to something Chinese, e.g., martial arts.

nechan [姉ちゃん], or o-nechan [お姉ちゃん] means an elder sister. However, you can call any women older than you "nechan", as cathoric nuns call each other "sister".

anesan [姐さん] means an amazon; a brave, tough, independent, capable and (possibly) uncivlized woman. It also contains a sort of out-law nuance. Yakuza (japanese mafia) often use this word.

First name -- it depends on the situation. If you are in a business scene, you should avoid calling someone in the first name. If you are a student and you are talking to your professor, you must also call him/her in the second name. It doesn't depend on how long you have known each other; it depends on how "solemn" or "should-be-solemn" the relation between you two is. When you talk to your friends, you can call them in the first names no matter how short the friendship is.

Happy learning!
Thank you! ^^
Because the manga I was reading included all them, but now I understand the relationships
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Old 2008-01-30, 13:30   Link #1310
Sekai Takeshi
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I'm glad my school has a japanese class!
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Old 2008-01-30, 20:31   Link #1311
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mandarb916 View Post
it can also be interpreted as "it's educational (for me)", in which case, there's no equivalent of the word "もう" in English. In this instance it's awkward, but it COULD be used in the same context as something like, "もう、最高!" Basically emphasizing an emotion or situation.
But when applied to "study"... much less "already, become study"... it doesn't make much sense.

"もうじょうずになる" (mou jouzu ni naru) would make more sense, as would "勉強するつもりです" (ben'kyou suru tsumori desu).

But aside from that, I could piece it together and figure out what askia was saying -- which is the most important part.

Geez, I'm just now realizing I haven't taken a Japanese class since... '04? 05?
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Old 2008-01-30, 20:59   Link #1312
mandarb916
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raikage View Post
But when applied to "study"... much less "already, become study"... it doesn't make much sense.

"もうじょうずになる" (mou jouzu ni naru) would make more sense, as would "勉強するつもりです" (ben'kyou suru tsumori desu).

But aside from that, I could piece it together and figure out what askia was saying -- which is the most important part.

Geez, I'm just now realizing I haven't taken a Japanese class since... '04? 05?

勉強になる。without the もう would make equally as much sense, since 勉強 can also be translated as "lesson" or what not. Having the もう there while awkward, wouldn't change the core meaning of the sentence.
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Old 2008-01-30, 21:21   Link #1313
richvh
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I've often seen 勉強になります in online chats with Japanese, when I've explained something; I've never seen もう、勉強になります in those conversations.
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Old 2008-01-30, 21:45   Link #1314
askia47
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こんばんわ!Hey, everyone, thanks for looking at what i tried to say. Ill try to explain what I wanted to type.
First thanks alot for the tips darkside and Rissa, I will try writing more in a notebook t see if that helps.

Also tripperazn, thanks alot for that advice. I have the book you mentioned at home, but haven't really read it yet. For now I think ill try to finish Genki 2, as well watch more RAW anime like you suggested, I'll probably start with Clannad as I am up to ep7 now.

With "もう、勉強になる。私は大学生です" I was trying to say, "i need to study more", but i wasn't to sure if i got it correct or not, which seems to be what everyone is talking about now.

Also is there a site thats good for beginners for reading? I read raw manga, but its not as easy since I only know around 200 kanji, and i have to get that up alot as well.

Any suggestions would be great! 本当にありがとうございます。
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Old 2008-01-30, 21:52   Link #1315
Tri-ring
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Land of the rising sun
Quote:
Originally Posted by richvh View Post
I've often seen 勉強になります in online chats with Japanese, when I've explained something; I've never seen もう、勉強になります in those conversations.
もう can be used as an exclamation but should be seperated from the continuing sentence to make it understandable. There should also be a receiptive verb to show the exaggeration of the exclamation. So if you want to use もう in the above sentence it should be;

もう、本当に勉強になりました。
In this case receiving the もう is 本当に so the translation will become, "It really was informative.

Here are some other examples.
もう、最高
もう、最低
もう、だめ
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Old 2008-01-30, 21:56   Link #1316
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post

With "もう、勉強になる。私は大学生です" I was trying to say, "i need to study more", but i wasn't to sure if i got it correct or not, which seems to be what everyone is talking about now.
If you wanted to say I need to study more it's;
もっと勉強する必要がある。
もっと means "more" and 必要 is "need"

Keep it up. (がんばってください)
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Old 2008-01-31, 13:09   Link #1317
darksider
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Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post
Also is there a site thats good for beginners for reading? I read raw manga, but its not as easy since I only know around 200 kanji, and i have to get that up alot as well.

Any suggestions would be great! 本当にありがとうございます。
Stuffs for beginners? Well, let's see....
* Easy = can be boring (when you learn something, you have to be and keep interested in materials)
* Entertaining = can be too hard and frustrating

mmm.... it's difficult! I guess it will help to think again why you want to learn Japanese, and search for your own interest.

If I should suggest something, well, trying translation of easy songs usually helps.
(From anime... maybe "saraba" by Kinmokusei, the OP song of Atashin'chi, is one of easiest?)
Or try this one? If you are able to read kana with ease http://annex.s-manga.net/manga-onlin...oko/index.html
(Animal Yokochou on "Manga-Online")

Or maybe books... the most basic thing... wait... do we have easy and interesting Japanese books? I don't know!
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Old 2008-01-31, 13:54   Link #1318
LiberLibri
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日本語のテキスト

Quote:
Originally Posted by askia47 View Post
Also is there a site thats good for beginners for reading? I read raw manga, but its not as easy since I only know around 200 kanji, and i have to get that up alot as well.
こんばんは,askia47.

Aozora Bunko [青空文庫 / blue-sky library: www.aozora.gr.jp] is a web-archive of Japanese texts, the copyright of which have expired. You can read a lot of great Japanese literature there for free. It also contains a number of Japanese translations of non-Japanese literature.

Some works are furnished with kana-sign (ruby) for difficult kanji letters so that you can read them easily. For example, see the URL below:
http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000094...530_20932.html
This is the Japanese version of "THE BLACK CAT" by E. A. Poe. If you have access to the original book in English, you may also compare the phrases in the two language.

I have learned some foreign languages so far. Books for beginners are often boring for me because their contents are childish; "Hello Nancy", "Is this your bag?", "I love dogs", like that, you know. I want materials which are linguistically-usuful as well as literarily-interesting. If you are like me, I highly recommend Aozora Bunko to you.

Anglo-American juvenile literature in Japanese
http://yozora.kazumi386.org/9/3/ndck933.html
To view the text, click the title you like, then click the link labeled as "XHTMLファイル" (XHTML file format).

Last edited by LiberLibri; 2008-01-31 at 14:32.
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Old 2008-01-31, 14:07   Link #1319
richvh
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Well, I don't think it qualifies as easy, but the novel I'm writing (ゆきの物語) is at least moderately entertaining. It's aimed at intermediate learners, so if you're plowing through manga, you should be able to deal with it (especially with the help of the rikaichan plugin to Firefox.)
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Old 2008-01-31, 17:51   Link #1320
einjuru333
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@.@ omg i've never taken in so much info at one time b4 (-_-") guuys! now i gots a headache :P
umm, im not really too good in japanese... unless ppl wanna insult someone.... but yeah alot of doubtage there lol
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