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Old 2008-02-09, 15:24   Link #1361
nikorai
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FatPianoBoy
Yeah I usually have a lot of things to do which gradually leave me less and less time for sleep.
全くの睡眠不足だよね、ね。
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Old 2008-02-16, 08:19   Link #1362
Mueti
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Yay! As of today I learned my 1006th logographic symbol and have thus completed 6 grades worth of kanji. (It's not like I'd be able to write all of them by heart though, that'll still take time.) ...Now to get down with the remaining 939 darn jouyou characters; my goal is the JLPT 1 in december.
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Old 2008-02-16, 17:08   Link #1363
Vexx
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Congratulations... Now when you say you've Learned Them. You mean that you could flash card all 1006 in one setting?

That's my problem with counting how many I've learned... I've "learned" hundreds... but they fade away if I don't keep a constant eye on them. Any particular techniques you use for reinforcement and retention?
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Old 2008-02-16, 19:38   Link #1364
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I use the Color Kanji function of JWPce to keep a rough count on how many kanji I can recognize and put a reading to, though it can't cope with kanji outside the JIS-208 standard. Not that I encounter many outside that standard... the main one I encounter in my reading, I think, is 摑, the old form of 掴.
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Old 2008-02-16, 19:52   Link #1365
Mueti
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
Congratulations... Now when you say you've Learned Them. You mean that you could flash card all 1006 in one setting?

That's my problem with counting how many I've learned... I've "learned" hundreds... but they fade away if I don't keep a constant eye on them. Any particular techniques you use for reinforcement and retention?

Thanks. I write the flashcards myself and since the kanji are numbered, it's a pretty accurate count. Of course I can read some common kanji which I haven't yet learned that way but most of the time it's only one reading I know.
And yes, they do fade, at least the more recently acquired ones. I don't have any special techniques though, really. Just regular practice. I'm going through my cards on a regular basis, the "older" the kanji, the better I know it. And after enough recapitulation I won't forget it as easily anymore. Reading helps as well (and of course it's a lot more fun ), although I sometimes have the feeling that my vocabulary is a bit distorted because of the stuff I read.
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Old 2008-02-17, 14:34   Link #1366
nikorai
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I that's interesting.
My knowledge of kanji as well as japanese in general is terrible. You know I tend to simplify the learning process as much as possible and of course it tells on the results. Hopefully I dont aim at JLPT for the time being.
When I started I did learn kanji thoroughly. I mean I checked for the correct stroke order and repeatedly wrote lines of kanji on a sheet of paper. Now I basically look at the list of new kanji that are introduced and eventually memorize then when reading texts in the lesson and doing back-translation excercises. However there's a huge gap between the number of kanji I can recognize and actually write. Lately I like to use pc very much and you know it doesnt contribute to kanji knowledge. I mean you type in hiragana and press the space bar and here it is, ready for you, just check if it's the correct one.

Another huge problem is textbooks. My question is what textbooks would you recommend for me?
(for 中級・高級)
Recently I went to a local bookshop and found none that would suit my needs.
I have one that i'm currently studying but by my estimation, with enough time and willingness I can finish it in 4 months.
(Now that I look at it I have 2 exams in May and chapter one of my thesis to be done till the end of April, so learning japanese is postponed or else but the project is active).

The basic idea is that I'm very much used to doing back-translation exercises because they really make you think. Together with speech practice that gives spectacular results. At least that's how I was taught foreign languages at the university. We had several books which had a mix of texts and excercises and separate grammar books which were divided into topics with comments and excercises, including lots of back-translation. In addition we had a practical translation course with separate textbooks as well.
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Old 2008-02-20, 04:20   Link #1367
tripperazn
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Hey guys, I was wondering whether anyone could clarify the second sentence in my sig. This is from the visual novel Fortune Arterial and is part of a metaphor.

こちらから向こうは見えるし、その逆もまたしかり

I don't really know what またしかり is and 向こうは見える is very vague. He is talking about living in a dorm at boarding school and how that is like living in a "glass case". This sentence is his description of what he thinks the consequences of living like that is. I took a stab at it in the Wiki page, but I thought I'd consult you guys just to be sure.
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Old 2008-02-20, 06:27   Link #1368
richvh
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I'm not finding your attempt on the wiki.

"Since the other side is visible from here, the reverse must also be true"
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Old 2008-02-20, 06:35   Link #1369
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Hey guys, I was wondering whether anyone could clarify the second sentence in my sig. This is from the visual novel Fortune Arterial and is part of a metaphor.

こちらから向こうは見えるし、その逆もまたしかり

I don't really know what またしかり is and 向こうは見える is very vague. He is talking about living in a dorm at boarding school and how that is like living in a "glass case". This sentence is his description of what he thinks the consequences of living like that is. I took a stab at it in the Wiki page, but I thought I'd consult you guys just to be sure.
It's "I can see from this side and adverse can be said the same"
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Old 2008-02-20, 08:04   Link #1370
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by richvh View Post
"Since the other side is visible from here, the reverse must also be true"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tri-ring View Post
It's "I can see from this side and adverse can be said the same"
Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought the literal translation was. The problem with that is it's incredibly vague. What can he see? Just what is this gyaku/reverse that he can also see? I guess I should have explicitly said this was more an interpretation than literal translation help. I'll just copy and paste a chunk of the script from the wiki with my attempt at it:

かなりの進学校だとか伝統校だとか、なにかと有名な学院だが、その辺はどうでもよかった。
It's a prestigious school, with a long tradition and a good name, but I didn't care about any of that.

一番大切なのは《全寮制》だってこと。
To me, the most important aspect of this school was that all the students live in school dormitories, away from their parents.

つまり、もう転勤族の親父に連れ回されずにすむってことだ。
That means I won't ever have to transfer because of my father again.

転校生活が激しく苦痛だったわけじゃない。
There's no way I'll ever have to go through the agony of transferring again.

だが、そこには名状しがたい窮屈さがあった。
The policy sounds like it might be a little too constraining, though.

例えるなら、ガラスのケースに入ったま生活しているような気分だ。
It's kind of like living your life inside a glass case.

こちらから向こうは見えるし、その逆もまたしかり。 (*this is the line)
From now on, my life will be stable enough for me to look to the future...and the past as well.

でも、外界の何かに触れることはできない。
However, it might mean that I won't be able to reach the world outside the school any longer.

もしかしたら、吸ってる空気も違うのかもしれない。
Perhaps even the air I breathe here would be different from that of the outside world.

だが今の俺は違う。
But that was before, I feel differently now.

これから始まる新生活。
I feel like I've just started a new life.

The top is the original script, bottom is my translation. In the wiki, it's under "Welcoming Representative" in the first of 3 tables at the bottom of the home page if you need to see the complete scene. Those have my translators notes to the other translator, which I took out here. Thanks for your help!

You'll notice I took some liberties with the script, but it's to help clarify and emphasize the main point of why he chose to live alone in a dormitory. Translating literally just doesn't make much sense to people who aren't versed in some Japanese. Especially in the line in question. The stability and future thing was my interpretation of what he's trying to say in vague terms, which is also why I don't feel comfortable leaving it the way it is without a second opinion.
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Old 2008-02-20, 08:44   Link #1371
richvh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought the literal translation was. The problem with that is it's incredibly vague. What can he see? Just what is this gyaku/reverse that he can also see? I guess I should have explicitly said this was more an interpretation than literal translation help. I'll just copy and paste a chunk of the script from the wiki with my attempt at it:
Let me be clearer:
"Since I can see out, they can see in as well." This relates back to the feeling of living in a glass case.
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Old 2008-02-20, 08:51   Link #1372
Nagato
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought the literal translation was. The problem with that is it's incredibly vague. What can he see? Just what is this gyaku/reverse that he can also see? I guess I should have explicitly said this was more an interpretation than literal translation help. I'll just copy and paste a chunk of the script from the wiki with my attempt at it:



例えるなら、ガラスのケースに入ったま生活しているような気分だ。
It's kind of like living your life inside a glass case.

こちらから向こうは見えるし、その逆もまたしかり。 (*this is the line)
From now on, my life will be stable enough for me to look to the future...and the past as well.

でも、外界の何かに触れることはできない。
However, it might mean that I won't be able to reach the world outside the school any longer.

The top is the original script, bottom is my translation. In the wiki, it's under "Welcoming Representative" in the first of 3 tables at the bottom of the home page if you need to see the complete scene. Those have my translators notes to the other translator, which I took out here. Thanks for your help!

You'll notice I took some liberties with the script, but it's to help clarify and emphasize the main point of why he chose to live alone in a dormitory. Translating literally just doesn't make much sense to people who aren't versed in some Japanese. Especially in the line in question. The stability and future thing was my interpretation of what he's trying to say in vague terms, which is also why I don't feel comfortable leaving it the way it is without a second opinion.
こちらから向こうは見えるし、その逆もまたしかり。
でも、外界の何かに触れることはできない。

I think you got the answer from the previous replies. This is just a simple "I can see it, yet I can't reach it". the その逆もまたしかり is kind of おまけ, the outer world is visible from here, and so is this world from there. Still, He can't touch anything outside his world. Because, he live in dormitory. I can't see it has to do with his future and past.
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Old 2008-02-20, 09:28   Link #1373
Tri-ring
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tripperazn View Post
Yeah, that's pretty much what I thought the literal translation was. The problem with that is it's incredibly vague. What can he see? Just what is this gyaku/reverse that he can also see? I guess I should have explicitly said this was more an interpretation than literal translation help. I'll just copy and paste a chunk of the script from the wiki with my attempt at it:
You're asking too much since the paragraph was out of context. Without understanding the situation it is impossible to really come out with a meaning behind the sentence.


Quote:
転校生活が激しく苦痛だったわけじゃない。
There's no way I'll ever have to go through the agony of transferring again.
This translation is completely off since s/he say "it wasn't not terribly painful enduring transferring."

Quote:
例えるなら、ガラスのケースに入ったま生活しているような気分だ。
It's kind of like living your life inside a glass case.

こちらから向こうは見えるし、その逆もまたしかり。 (*this is the line)
From now on, my life will be stable enough for me to look to the future...and the past as well.
Within this context it could be translated, I am constantly being observed but I am also the observer. Since the subject is stating he is in a glass case.

The sentence is still connected to the indescribable pressure he felt during his constant transfer from one school to another.
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Old 2008-02-20, 09:37   Link #1374
nikorai
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The demo version I played was somehow understandable for me.
Spoiler for offtopic:
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Old 2008-02-20, 10:18   Link #1375
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Firstly I should say that any attempt to make an unauthorized translation publicly is ILLEGAL and breaches the author's rights. Doing so as a private linguistic lesson would be good, but you must not publish it in the Internet.

Now, see the story

You see that he (the speaker) feels that 転校生活 is like ガラスのケースに入ったままの生活. If you transfer so often, you cannot make deep relations with other people. You cannot have any attachment to the town you live in, to the neighbours besides you, to the classmates you learn with. You are doomed to leave them soon. Possibly you can behave as if you belong to the space you are temporally standing, but actually you are nothing more than an alien wherever you go. He describes this isolated feeling as ガラスのケース, because, in a glass case, you cannot touch and feel the real existence of someone outside, and vice versa.

However, by entering the dormitory, he achieves a persistent standpoint. He is never more an eternal alien there; he can make real relationships with co-habitors and schoolmates without the fear of losing them soon in months. That is why he is looking forward to これから始まる新生活.

Last edited by LiberLibri; 2008-02-20 at 10:33.
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Old 2008-02-20, 10:38   Link #1376
nikorai
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I think it's ok since it's not for profit (see fansubbing). Say, when I played Sakuka Taisen my japanese was even more terrible than it is now so the translation by a person from gamefaqs really helped.
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Old 2008-02-20, 11:32   Link #1377
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this is slightly off topic, but i plan to start learning japanese in college from next year, how many years do you think itll take to be relatively good at japanese? ive always been pretty good with languages.. im fluent in 2 and can understand 2 others.. however anime aside i dont know anything about the language.. how long do you guys think?
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Old 2008-02-20, 11:42   Link #1378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nikorai View Post
LiberLibri
I think it's ok since it's not for profit (see fansubbing). Say, when I played Sakuka Taisen my japanese was even more terrible than it is now so the translation by a person from gamefaqs really helped.
It's not the topic of this thread, but you seem to misunderstand the fact, so shortly:
- profit or non-profit does not affect the legality of action.
- most funsubs are also ILLEGAL. But today implicit compromise exists between the authors and fangroups that the latter could make and distribute their translation untill the local agency gets the formal translation licence. That is because moral thieves are preferable than unrestricted piracy.
See the Bern Convention, Art 8.
http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/b...tml#P138_25087

I agree unofficial translation sometimes help those who have little capacity in the language. I never deny your good will. I just say: do not distribute it publicly through the Web.

>oompa loompa

I think you should clarify the levels in which you are now and you want to be. If the four language you already know include Kanji-using ones (e.g., Taiwanese, Kantonese or Mandarin), it is far easier for you to learn Japanese than for pure Alphabet users, I think.

Last edited by LiberLibri; 2008-02-20 at 11:57.
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Old 2008-02-20, 11:57   Link #1379
tripperazn
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Thanks for all your help guys. So basically what this is really saying is that his transient lifestyle was like living in a glass case, he could interact with his surroundings in a distant way knowing his transfer is inevitable, so he was never able to commit to one place. Does that sound about right? I interpreted it like Nagato and "glass case" is applied to dormitory life, not transferring. Both are plausible, but in end who is right?

@Tri-Ring: Thanks for catching that error. I am really only quality checking at this point, the original had "agony" and "transfer" and seemed to fit, so I left it alone.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
It's not the topic of this thread, but you seem to misunderstand the fact, so shortly:
- profit or non-profit does not affect the legality of action.
- most funsubs are also ILLEGAL. But today implicit compromise exists between the authors and fangroups that the latter could make and distribute their translation untill the local agency gets the formal translation licence. That is because moral thieves are preferable than unrestricted piracy.
See the Bern Convention, Art 8.
http://www.wipo.int/treaties/en/ip/b...tml#P138_25087

I agree unofficial translation sometimes help those who have little capacity in the language. I never deny your good will. I just say: do not distribute it publicly through the Web.
Well, this is hardly under my control since it's not my project, and we are not even sure of our intentions at this point. Getting additional translation staff is absolutely critical and there hasn't been much luck on that front. For now, I consider this for personal education, since there is a very high likelihood that the project will fall through unless we get another more capable translator. If this translation actually gets done, I'm sure the head of the project will look into the legality of releasing a patch. As far as I know, it's not piracy unless we are condoning distribution of the game. A patch is simply intellectual property. However, these laws have always been either vague or poorly enforced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
this is slightly off topic, but i plan to start learning japanese in college from next year, how many years do you think itll take to be relatively good at japanese? ive always been pretty good with languages.. im fluent in 2 and can understand 2 others.. however anime aside i dont know anything about the language.. how long do you guys think?
As LiberLibri says, it depends on your background in Asian languages and also how hard you study. I've technically been studying for 3.5 years, but most of what I know right now is from the last 3 months since I've actually gotten around to using this knowledge and stopped slacking off. My first language is Chinese so, it really helps in memorizing kanji and progressing past the beginning levels of the language.
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Old 2008-02-20, 12:22   Link #1380
raikage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oompa loompa View Post
this is slightly off topic, but i plan to start learning japanese in college from next year, how many years do you think itll take to be relatively good at japanese? ive always been pretty good with languages.. im fluent in 2 and can understand 2 others.. however anime aside i dont know anything about the language.. how long do you guys think?
Took me two-three semesters til I felt I could stumble around Japan and be barely communicative. Where's the store, go to the corner and make a right, your room is on the third floor, stuff like that.

Semester four was when things started clicking and I could actually listen to anime/game shows/dramas full speed and really begin picking out sentences and phrases and such.

Unfortunately, my major and desire to graduate got in the way and there was no 5th semester.
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