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Old 2008-07-01, 03:22   Link #1621
RandomGuy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
EDIT: I often hear people saying "nani o" or "nani o sore" in animes. I get what is being said but I don't really understand how o works in that case grammatically if anybody could elaborate.
You're mishearing it slightly.

They're saying "Nani yo, sore!" which is something like "What is that?!" I would also venture a guess and say the speaker in question is female, since they use "nani yo" rather than "nan da yo," though it doesn't necessarily have to be.
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Old 2008-07-01, 06:33   Link #1622
bungmonkey
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Thanks for the replies. If I was going to say "what is that" I would have made "sore wa nani?" like you said. It was just something that I hear often and was wondering about. Also I don't really watch anime to learn japanese, I just watch it for fun like I always have except now when I hear vocab and things that I know I rewind it a few times and try to figure out what they're saying for myself. Any comments on those sentences I made though?
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Old 2008-07-01, 07:39   Link #1623
richvh
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Where I've encountered なにおう? or the like has been in manga, and how it was explained to me is that this is 何を言っている or similar - What did you say?!, usually in surprise. Oh, and in the particular manga where I first encountered it, the speaker was a guy.
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Old 2008-07-01, 11:20   Link #1624
Nervous Venus
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I think I hear (like with my girl friends) "なによ" a lot,
as in " Whhhhhat?", followed by some lame excuse when I accuse them of borrowing my clothes without asking. I thought よ sort of acted like an exclamation mark (correct me if I'm wrong). Also, I've rarely (if ever???) seen it written as "なにおう" in the mangas I've read, as far as I can tell.
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Old 2008-07-01, 23:09   Link #1625
mg1942
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Hi. I'm new.

I took 3 semesters of jap class in UNLV (Las Vegas). This year I am not taking JPN class due to core major classes that I need to take care of... I'll probably buy intermediate JPN book (Youkoso 2) for self-study and maybe take intermediate jap in my senior year.

To retain my knowledge, I'm reading some expired copyright novel online called オシャベリ姫 (o-shaberi hime)

http://www.aozora.gr.jp/cards/000096...932_21785.html

It's got pretty straight-forward grammar imo. Pretty useful for me since I only have 3 semesters of study

When I encounter an unfamiliar kanji, I simply use...

rikaichan

and

Wakan
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Old 2008-07-02, 04:41   Link #1626
LiberLibri
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
ひらいくんがなんでざっかてんにいった?(Why did hirai-kun go to the store? Not sure if I need something between "なんで" and "ざっかてん")
Nearly perfect.
平井君 (ひらい くん)  なんで 雑貨店 (ざっかてん) に 行(い)った?
seems a bit better, unless there is a particular context.
For example, suppose there were two persons there. Either Hirai or the other had to go to the store, and Hirai took the duty. Then you ask "why Hirai?"; why not the other person? In such a situation, you should say ひらい くん なんで~ because your emphasis is on the person, not the action.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
みずきちゃんはえいがかんでえいがをみた、でもすきじゃなかった。 (Mizuki-chan saw a movie in the theatre but did not like it)
You understand the grammar quite well.
The wording is stiff yet, so you need enrich the vocabulary. でも おもしろく なかった can be a better alternative.
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Old 2008-07-02, 11:14   Link #1627
bungmonkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri View Post
You understand the grammar quite well.
Thanks for the reply again but I don't know if I would go that far. Anyway, can somebody explain how "no, noda, nda" is used at the end of a sentence to create an explanatory tone? Aren't you explaining every time you answer a question somebody asks? Unless it's a yes/no question or something. Would you ever use it in a declarative sentence when nobody has asked a question? I guess I just don't understand the situations that it is used in.
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Old 2008-07-02, 12:25   Link #1628
richvh
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It's similar to prefacing a sentence with "The fact is that..." or "As a matter of fact,..."
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Old 2008-07-02, 18:43   Link #1629
tripperazn
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Thanks for the reply again but I don't know if I would go that far. Anyway, can somebody explain how "no, noda, nda" is used at the end of a sentence to create an explanatory tone? Aren't you explaining every time you answer a question somebody asks? Unless it's a yes/no question or something. Would you ever use it in a declarative sentence when nobody has asked a question? I guess I just don't understand the situations that it is used in.
"ん" is typically used to explain something in response as part of the conversation.

Example:

A: B-さん、どうして最近学校に来なかったかい? (B-san, doushite saikin gakkou ni konakatta kai?)
B: 病気だったです。 (Byouki dattan desu.)

Hopefully, the grammar isn't butchered beyond comprehension. In any case, you can see that this is a question and answer exchange. A question is posed on B by A, and B answers with a statement plus "ん" to imply that this is the answer to his/her question.
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Old 2008-07-02, 21:37   Link #1630
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richvh and tripperazn explained gracefully.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
Would you ever use it in a declarative sentence when nobody has asked a question? I guess I just don't understand the situations that it is used in.
Yes. It can be used in a position corresponding to "really" "actually" in English. For example:

ヤス が 犯人 (はんにん) だった か。

僕(ぼく) が 一番 (いちばん) うまく ガンダム を つかえる だ。

ボンカレー は どう 作 (つく) って も うまい だ。
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Old 2008-07-04, 19:02   Link #1631
waterchan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LiberLibri
You may be confused, but "ga" has two major function. One is to make a subject, and the other is to make an accusative (target of the verb). Your example is the latter case. Alice asks Bob with what he is making fun. You can find this usage of "ga" mainly in evaluative sentences; like-dislike, possible-impossible, good-bad etc.

映画観たい。(I'd) love to watch a movie.
英語ができる。(It) is possible (for me to speak) English.
食べ物がほしい。 (I) want something to eat.

I've never really understood why certain "emotional" verbs are preceded by "ga", while others are preceded by "wo". For example:

好きだよ。 (I like you)
君を好き is wrong. Why?

あなた愛してる。 (I love you)
あなたが愛してる is wrong, and the listener probably expects continuation (あなたが愛してる者は誰?)

欲しい (I want you!)
君を欲しい is wrong. Why?

And also, I think それ分かる (I know that) is correct, while それ分かる is wrong, but not sure about this one.

ぜんぜん知らないもん! 
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Old 2008-07-04, 19:18   Link #1632
bungmonkey
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Well, I believe in your 1st and 3rd examples, "suki" and "hoshii" are not actually verbs so the direct object particle would be incorrect. I will let somebody with more than a week of japanese experience answer that though for sure though

EDIT: And for your other issue I think this is the answer:
Quote:
「知る」 vs 「分かる」
「分かる」 meaning "to understand" may seem similar to 「知る」 in some cases. However, there is a difference between "knowing" and "understanding". Try not to confuse 「知っている」 with 「分かっている」. 「分かっている」 means that you are already in a state of understanding, in other words, you already get it. If you misuse this, you may sound pompous. ("Yeah, yeah, I got it already.") On the other hand, 「知っている」 simply means you know something.
This is from http://www.guidetojapanese.org/enduring.html

Last edited by bungmonkey; 2008-07-05 at 09:31.
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Old 2008-07-04, 20:24   Link #1633
LiberLibri
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bungmonkey has a good point. Think in this way: each of すき (likable), わかる (understandable) or ほしい (desirable) signifies a condition, whereas あい する (love) is rather an emotional action.

I don't know native English speakers can grasp the sense. But you feel "wanter" "liker" and "knower" as somehow unnatural even in English, while "lover" is quite common.
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Old 2008-07-05, 07:53   Link #1634
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waterchan View Post
I've never really understood why certain "emotional" verbs are preceded by "ga", while others are preceded by "wo". For example:

好きだよ。 (I like you)
君を好き is wrong. Why?

あなた愛してる。 (I love you)
あなたが愛してる is wrong, and the listener probably expects continuation (あなたが愛してる者は誰?)

欲しい (I want you!)
君を欲しい is wrong. Why?

And also, I think それ分かる (I know that) is correct, while それ分かる is wrong, but not sure about this one.

ぜんぜん知らないもん! 
Well we were taught at the beginning to approach 'suki' as an na adj - since it follows the same grammatical structure as those.

And to take 'hoshi' as an i adj as it takes the same grammatical structure as those.

And as with the use of adjectives in japanese, we don't use the particle 'wo' so it made sense just to stick with 'ga'
Another example being 'onaka ga tsuita' - but i learnt that as a phrase for 'im hungry' rather than trying to break down why the verb 'tsuku' didn't have a 'wo'.

Since we were at uni and newbies, we didn't question it, we just learnt it.
Infact, until i read your post, i didn't realise that someone would approach and see them as 'verbs' - i guess that's looking at it from an english sense;
In my head, it's kinda programmed to treat them as adjectives when communciating in japanese, lol.

Wakaru is the use of 'ga' (irregular example) - our teacher said just to accept it and not question it. (as in find the linguistic history as to who made that decision and why that descision was made, lol) I kinda agree with her, there are some things in english and japanese that have zero link, relation, sense or logic to it.

Make like a child and simply absorb and use correctly, makes things less mentally painful
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Old 2008-07-05, 10:43   Link #1635
bungmonkey
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So one question about the whole know/understand thing. Is there no word for "learn"? Instead you would use "shita"? (Like I "knowed" something aka learned)
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Old 2008-07-05, 11:58   Link #1636
Mystique
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bungmonkey View Post
So one question about the whole know/understand thing. Is there no word for "learn"? Instead you would use "shita"? (Like I "knowed" something aka learned)
習う 【ならう】 (v5u) to learn, (P)

sono kotoba wo naratta bakkari da (i've just learnt it), is a common phrase i tend to informally use often, anytime i learn something new and confirm that i get it and that I'd never known about it before.
But you can use 'wakarimashita/ wakatta' to imply that you understand what you've just learnt too, in the ways that we say in english sometimes 'Ah, I get it.'
Better to use 'wakarimashita' to your teacher when in class.

As you'll eventually learn with Japanese, there are different words meaning the same thing to suitably use in different situations depending on the context of what is going on, who you're speaking to, where you are and so on; you'll eventually begin to gain a sense of what to use where and when with who.

知る 【しる】 (v5r) to know, to understand, to be acquainted with, to feel, (P)
That one to me is merely stating whether a person is mentally aware of somethng.

I don't know that person.
I didn't know.
I didn't realise/ wasn't aware of that.
NB: to say 'i know/ i'm aware' is usually said/written in the present progressive tense:

知っていますか?- Do you know him?
知っている!- I do!
(tho i'm pondering on 御存知ますか(gozonjimasu ka) - which is normal present tense, should look that up someday...)

To continue from LiberLibri's explaination of 'like' + 'want' vs 'love'

Basically, the wo particle is used when an action is done directly to a object.

So to 'want' or 'like' something is a desire, it's a feeling, it's abstract - it's not an actual physical action like eating, swimming or reading, hence they're treated like adjectives.
To 'understand' is also just as abstract, when you understand something, a "penny may drop" or an invisible lightbulb may shine above your head (tho that's considered a eureka moment, lol) but nothing actually happens to an object right that minute.
Why it isn't then treated as na adjective?
Take it up with the creators of this language,lol. It's just an irregularity i guess to accept as much as in English we have:

I see, I saw, I have seen.
I come, I came, I have come.
I look, I looked, I have looked.
(actually english is even worse for non logical grammar rules, i feel for learners....)

Then the question you may ask is 'isn't love abstract and a feeling too?'

Yep, but love is deeper i guess?

Basically the term 'aisuru' or 'aishiteiru' (I love you) - at least to me is really really intense.
You may hear on anime often, teens tossing a lot of 'suki da!' or "daisuki' - which some translators translate as 'i love you' - it can be translated as that, but it's not regarded as.... hmm... absolute? (for lack of a better word)

I can go 'sono hon ga daisuki da!' - I really luuuuuuurve that book!
For lovers to whisper 'aishiteru' to each other is like:
*swoon* love as in, marriage, family, wanna be with you for life and im 110% serious bout it kinda thing, lol.

I rarely hear the verb aisuru used with an object to be honest - but i guess with that concept of love comes the entire, getting married, moving in, having kids etc etc.

Perhaps in that sense, it can be considered an action, lol

Hard to explain, i can only feel the differences between 'suki' and 'aisuru' - as weird as that may sound, maybe LiberLibri can expand on that better in a logical sense
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Last edited by Mystique; 2008-07-05 at 12:43.
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Old 2008-07-05, 14:05   Link #1637
waterchan
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Thanks bungmonkey, LiberLibri and Mystique. From my understanding, you are saying that the reason for saying 君すき and あなた愛してる is that, although "love" is an emotional action, "like" is more of a state of being. I fail to grasp the clear distinction, if any, between 愛する as an action and 好き as a state of being, because I think they could just as well be considered vice-versa.

Like some of you have suggested, a friend of mine who's lived in Japan for 8 years also said that things like these are probably better memorized than reasoned. I think I'll just do that. :P
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Old 2008-07-15, 16:09   Link #1638
Ablle
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japanese

hi i was wondering it there a way to learn japanese other than the way im doing right now i am use a Japanese audio deluze pack i got from a book store that is about 10 cds and it teaches you a number of thing but i dont think its working because i dont know anymore now than i did before i bought it and i have had it about 2 months so any help would be great and at this point ill try anything.
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Old 2008-07-15, 16:21   Link #1639
Rembr
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Take a class.

You can learn from CDs and whatever, but that takes a lot of extra discipline. Classes will provide structure and a teacher which takes off a lot of weight off your shoulders.
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Old 2008-07-21, 09:29   Link #1640
askia47
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Heres a question, for those who have learned japanese, how long did it take you?
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