AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > General > General Chat

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2009-01-05, 18:59   Link #1861
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Uhm, I mean rearranging the way my brain works and making it to so naturally (Japanese grammar) requires much more effort. Man, I;ve even tried to spell a word in kana in stead of romaji lately (everything in kana), and it's slowwwww
practice makes perfect as with most things. Keep with it and over the months and years it'll speed up
As for learning not to say anything, seems kinda pointless. That's like learning to write the ABC, but not knowing the sounds, how can you actually read or communicate then?
Don't forget (as i think a lot of us do) learning kanji = learning vocabulary. It'll strenghtern the words you need to mesh in with the grammar, so both are just as important.
For me personally, learning kanji is an easier way to memorise vocab as i can kinda 'see' the word.
Of course there's 3 issues with it; as of lately for me, it's knowing the english word, seeing the kanji in my head, but forgetting how to actually read it. x.x
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia
Mystique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 19:43   Link #1862
7thMethuselah
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Antwerp area, Belgium, Europa
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Uhm, I'm planning to learn all of the 2000 compulsory Kanji before any serious learning. Is it a good idea? (just learn how to write and the meaning of those, not the pronunciation). I got like 300 in 4 days thx to Heisig's methods.

Or should I stop now and concentrate more in grammar and stuffs?
Learning the nearly 2000 basic kanji but not how to make a sentence seems a bit strange to say the least. And even if you know them all you won't be able to tell the content of a sentence still. The combination of 2 kanji can give meanings which aren't even closely related to the basic meaning of the separate kanji, the word for Japan is made up from the combination of the kanji for a tree with the kanji for a sun for example. I also think it'll require some serious discipline to learn all the kanji without knowing how to read them, and for all the effort you will still be little further to being able to read a japanese text.

So I think you should learn some grammar with it as well. Being able to recognise and later 'read' kanji is a big fulfillment. There's no real need to learn all on and kun readings at once if you can't connect these to words you know. Just pick them up as you go along. I tend to learn some grammar and add in a set of kanji according to new vocabulary that comes with it. You wont find words for all readings, since some readings are more rare than others, as long as you know the commonly used ones. A good reference book is indispensible here of course. It's just as Mystique said, kanji are a great way to add words to your vocabulary. And vocabulary is a great way to remember the kanji

The most important thing with Kanji is practicing to read simple texts. Read and reread texts untill you can make out the reading of a kanji naturally with no effort. At first you'll find it confusing to see the reading according to the context, but you'll notice you can make progress here really fast and knowing which readings to use becomes relatively fast and easy without the need to learn all on and kun readings as a list. Remembering the meaning of the kanji really gets etched in your brain this way. You won't be learning 400 Kanji in a few days with this method, but you will be able to actually read a text, and remembering the kanji becomes so much easier since you can connect it to several items at once.
__________________

7thMethuselah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 20:02   Link #1863
iLney
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Thx everyone ^^

BTW, does this make any sense?
句 は 獏.

(Just try to utilize the stuffs I've learn)
iLney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 20:48   Link #1864
Ja-Y-Ce
Earthling
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Thx everyone ^^

BTW, does this make any sense?
句 は 獏.

(Just try to utilize the stuffs I've learn)
Ermm, no?

I would thought that 句 = sentence, phrase while 獏 = tapir (animal) - if i am taking in the translation literally?

not too sure am i right or wrong though.
Ja-Y-Ce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 21:30   Link #1865
iLney
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Ehh, it's supposed to be: this phrase is vague
iLney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 21:57   Link #1866
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Ehh, it's supposed to be: this phrase is vague
1: This is where grammar (bolded) is needed, particles and all.
2: Unlike chinese 1 kanji doesn't equate to 1 meaning or have 1 reading. (sadly)
So words for 'phrase'... well there are a few, but it's usually composed of two kanji for more depth.

An example for that I suppose would be:
この語句不分明です
Kono goku wa fubunmei desu.

With Japanese again, sadly I find there to be like 3-4 ways (or more) to say 1 word in english because they specify it to each situation or noun.
(example is the word 'full')

The house is full.
The carpark is full.
I am full.

Translates to:
満員 (man-in) = full of members
満車 (main-sha) = full of cars
おなかがいっぱい (onaka ga ippai) = stomach is full

So to say 'this phrase is vague' - depends.
Is it a phrase from a poem? An idiom expression? Because in Japanese, there are seperate words for each one, lol. Always have to find the most suitable word to match the situation, this also bring extra pain for Eng->Jp translations, so I don't do them as often as I should. >.>
(least not by text)

Makes learning vocab a bitch in my opinion. I'd think i've learnt the word for something, only to see it has like 10 branches of it depending on the situation with natives will use naturally. x.x
(I love this language, really I do!)

But that's where kanji become this puzzle game which I like, gives clues as to what it may mean if you know the meanings for each character.
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia
Mystique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:06   Link #1867
Ja-Y-Ce
Earthling
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Ehh, it's supposed to be: this phrase is vague
yup, actually i thought it should be something along what Mystique has mentioned この語句(ごく)は不分明です or 句は不明瞭である

or errmm, is "獏" the wrong kanji to be used? Are you trying to use this "朦"? Sorry, is the closest kanji that i can think now to be something along the line of being "blur" "vague"

or maybe there is really such an idiom or poem. If so, maybe you can type the full sentence out.
Ja-Y-Ce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:08   Link #1868
iLney
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
EEK....

But it sounds fun ^_^
for this:

この語句は不分明です。

kono (This) word phrase wa(as for) ? ? bright desu (is).

=> this sentence is not very clear? Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ja-Y-Ce
yup, actually i thought it should be something along what Mystique has mentioned この語句(ごく)は不分明です or 句は不明瞭である

or errmm, is "獏" the wrong kanji to be used? Are you trying to use this "朦"? Sorry, is the closest kanji that i can think now to be something along the line of being "blur" "vague"
Oh, I see.... I mess up something. I just cpy paste from my Word using a reading found on google.

It is supposed to be "water" + "graveyard" = vague. Instead of "pack of wild dog" + graveyard
iLney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:11   Link #1869
Ja-Y-Ce
Earthling
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
EEK....

But it sounds fun ^_^
for this:

この語句は不分明です。

kono (This) word phrase wa(as for) ? ? bright desu (is).

=> this sentence is not very clear? Right?
不分明 = obscure;vague
Ja-Y-Ce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:16   Link #1870
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
EEK....

But it sounds fun ^_^
for this:

この語句は不分明です。

kono (This) word phrase wa(as for) ? ? bright desu (is).

=> this sentence is not very clear? Right?
Literally fubunmei = not clear, but in english it can be written simply as 'vague' (the flip side of the coin)
That makes translation flow a bit smoother, something i keep tabs on when watching fansubs.

the は is a subject particle, I can only suggest you reading up on official texts for it, rather than risk explaining it wrong ^^;;
が is another subject particle.
Here's a tip, try to not literally break down each part to fit the english structure cause it'll never work, lol.

Just remember it as a whole, see the pattern structures and memorise and utilise those. Japanese has that advantage over English, I believe, they're more fixed with their grammatical structures.
この<subject><adjective>です。
or
これは<adjective><subject>です。

the first being:
This phrase is vague.
the second being
This is an unclear/vague phrase.
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia
Mystique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:18   Link #1871
iLney
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Oh, I see. This is the word for vague that I learn: "漠"

BTW, "不分明" I recognize "bright" (the last kanji). The first two must mean something like "not"?
iLney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:23   Link #1872
Mystique
Honyaku no Hime
*Fansubber
 
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: In the eastern capital of the islands of the rising suns...
The key kanji there is 不
That character is useless on its own, but negates a hell of a lot of words in japanese when joined. Look up the word 分明 and see what you get
Also if you type in 不 in the dictionary, check out all the other character combos that are attached to it and see their meaning in english.
In this aspect, is where kanji becomes a little fun for me.

It's also kinda like the english equiv of 'un'

Unlucky
Unhappy
Unclear

etc....

edit:
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Oh, I see. This is the word for vague that I learn: "漠"
I see what u mean by that kanji, but like I said, it usually has to be joined to another kanji for deeper meaning:
漠然 【ばくぜん】 (adj-na,n) obscure, vague, equivocal, (P)
漠然と 【ばくぜんと】 (adv) vaguely, (P)
漠然たる 【ばくぜんたる】 (adj-t) vague, obscure, hazy
漠漠 【ばくばく】 (adj-na,n) vast, vague, obscure

So you can say 'bakubaku' (go onomateopeia!) xD
or 'bakuzen' - but i have a feeling that 'bakuzen' would only be used in formal situations like news reports or essays. Need a native to confirm for me though
A single kanji in Japanese tends to give you the nauance rather than an actual single word in english.
__________________

Worrying is like a rocking chair. It gives you something to do, but it doesn't get you anywhere. - Van Wilder
"If you ain't laughin', you ain't livin'." - Carlos Mencia

Last edited by Mystique; 2009-01-05 at 22:34.
Mystique is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:29   Link #1873
Ja-Y-Ce
Earthling
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mystique View Post
The key kanji there is 不
That character is useless on its own, but negates a hell of a lot of words in japanese when joined. Look up the word 分明 and see what you get
Also if you type in 不 in the dictionary, check out all the other character combos that are attached to it and see their meaning in english.
It's kinda the english equiv of 'un'
Unlucky
Unhappy
Unclear
etc....

In this aspect, is where kanji becomes a little fun for me.
yup, cos literally "不" means "not" - which is negative...

Anyway, out of curiosity - why is "漠" = "water" + "graveyard"?

the "water" i can understand but why is it "graveyard"? unless, you are talking about this "墓"?

Last edited by Ja-Y-Ce; 2009-01-05 at 22:42.
Ja-Y-Ce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:40   Link #1874
iLney
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Ah, I see. One more question.

If you write "この語句は不分明です" for example, without any space between, will it cause confusions? Like ....の.....は..... In this case, I recognize <kono> but what happens in other cases?
iLney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 22:56   Link #1875
7thMethuselah
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Antwerp area, Belgium, Europa
Age: 38
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Ah, I see. One more question.

If you write "この語句は不分明です" for example, without any space between, will it cause confusions? Like ....の.....は..... In this case, I recognize <kono> but what happens in other cases?
The japanese don't use spaces at all . The structure of a sentence is easy to recognise thanks to the kanji. The kaji make up the core building blocks if you like : the nouns, the verbs etc. The hiragana connect them to give the sentence a meaning, I'm referring to particles which point out the function of words in a sentence, and the hiragana used to conjugate verbs and words. As such in a full japanese text it is very easy to see where one words ends and where the next starts.
__________________

7thMethuselah is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 23:16   Link #1876
iLney
Senior Member
 
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Oh I see.

So instead of わたしは, I must write 吾は ? (That's the only "I" I know now).

Thx
iLney is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-05, 23:38   Link #1877
Ja-Y-Ce
Earthling
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by iLney View Post
Oh I see.

So instead of わたしは , I must write 吾は ? (That's the only "I" I know now).

Thx
Guess we need a native Japanese here for more clarification on the hiragana and the kanji.

As for me, i would thought that both are ok and it depends on each individual's preference - as long as you know what is their meaning.

Eg. there are certain books that will simply just use " わたしは" but there are some that will use as "私は". Or even maybe "べんきょうします" --> "勉強します"

Regardless of what, we (as the students learning Japanese Language) "ought" to know both of them?
Ja-Y-Ce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-06, 01:04   Link #1878
Alchemist007
自分のチームにいるよ。
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: USA
Age: 25
私は is what I've been told to use in my class, after learning kanji a bit.
__________________
Alchemist007 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-06, 02:23   Link #1879
Synria_
Aboard Kallen's Bandwagon
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: California
Quick question here, I have audiobooks that I play on my car and I listen whenever i'm on the road.

Something that i noticed from the opening as far as the numbers go, they pronounce 6 (in my ears) as LOKU. The section im on is about time. So they go something like lokuji ka ischjiini (6 or 7 o'clock).

This is where I am stuck because I can't seem to hear it properly. Does 6 have the R or L sound and as far as 7 goes, I hear it as Issschi (s sounds like when you say hiss)... or does 7 start with the "sh" sound rather than how I have it starting with a plain "I" sound...

Thanks
__________________
http://forums.animesuki.com/image.php?type=sigpic&userid=74320&dateline=120433  1734
Synria_ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2009-01-06, 03:08   Link #1880
jedinat
フリーター
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Synria_ View Post
This is where I am stuck because I can't seem to hear it properly. Does 6 have the R or L sound and as far as 7 goes, I hear it as Issschi (s sounds like when you say hiss)... or does 7 start with the "sh" sound rather than how I have it starting with a plain "I" sound...
The Japanese "r" sound is something between R and L... pronounce "r" but hit the top of your mouth with your tongue. (6 is roku) 7 is shichi (or nana)... but the "sh" is kind of soft, sort of between "s" and "sh"
jedinat is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
hiragana

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:41.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.