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Old 2006-02-08, 22:26   Link #241
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
I always thought that the effects of seastone were projected from the stone itself, working on fruit users in close proximity to it, as well as in contact with it. That would be why Smoker has it on the end of a long staff instead of on a truncheon or something, to be farther away from him.
Nah, it's based on touch. Luffy got weaker when he touched the bars of that seastone cell yet seemed ok while not touching the bars. He did this multiple times showing what his reaction was touching the bars and how it was not touching them. The result of this humorous experiment clearly was that of touching the bars = drained while not touching the bars = having the strength to go on with with loudly saying that you want to kick someone's ass.

Last edited by neodrag38; 2006-02-08 at 22:49.
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Old 2006-02-08, 22:45   Link #242
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
It probably has something to do with the fact that the sea stone is only located in the very tip of the staff... so the samll amount of sea stone doesn't seem to effect him atall when he uses his power... as long as he doesn't touch the tip he's fine

Alright, on to a new discussion

Now this i would not be too sure about... we didn't see him use it, and we didn't see him not use it... Since we did not see the fight, we can not say either is true for certain; right off atleast... while its true that its not actually said whether or not Smoker used his staff we can take too things into consideration...

first, you can notice that when Smoker and Ace square off smoker is wearing the staff on his back, and yet the next time we see smoker after their fight, the staff is not on his back anymore... this either means that the staff was somehow takenout of the fight, like either Smoker used it and it got knocked out of his hands, or he tossed it off for soem reason... or it could just mean Oda got a little lazy and forgot the staff in those few panels... this first point isn't that important

Second, there's the question as to why WOULDN'T Smoker use the staff... Smoker is drop dead serious in a fight and he doesn't pull any punches... He's not the kind of honorable fighter that would duel a fighter on even terms... He would not just make it a pure battle between Smoke and Fire, especially when he realizes the fight will be a rather even one... he was prepared to try and capture Ace when he first ran into him at the resturant, and he prides himself on his ability to capture nearly every pirate he comes across... I can't see any reason at all why he would not use his staff in a fight against Ace

And how did ace escape even though Smoker had Seastone on his side? probably because Ace knows how to keep his distance with his flames... Add in the confusion of massive amounts of smoke and fire, and Smoker is probably gonna have a hard time reaching and touching Ace's actual body with the staff
Now this is a bunch of non sense Slayerx, I have the episode right here and at the begining of the battle Smoker is wearing the seastone on his back and also when Ace escapes after the battle between smoke and fire the seastone club is at the same place where it was at the beginning of the battle on his back. It was just a battle between fire and smoke nothing more. Smoker used the white spark technique.

Second it was obvious that Smoker did not use his club because the battle was simply between smoke and fire as everyone saw the huge explosions in the sky increasing as the battle went on. Smoker did not use his seastone club at all because the distance between Ace and Smoker was to far apart. Smoker wanted to really find out was a battle between smoke and fire useless but Ace knew this and that is why he was able to escape. Yeah he better escape before Smoker busts out that Seastone.

So the battle was very obvious as nothing serious hapened just a battle between smoke and fire and the audience just found out that the result is useless.

I also noticed that you like to overanalyze and when you want too underanalyze something so simple. You like to complicate things that are simple. The battle was just smoke and fire because Smoker was to far to be using his seastone on his back.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2006-02-08 at 23:03.
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Old 2006-02-09, 08:09   Link #243
MihawkXGP
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Smoker would have used it,if he could have. Distance has nothin to do with it.

Face it, There is no chance in hell a Marine as powerful as smoker, would let a High ranking Pirate like Ace get away.
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Old 2006-02-09, 09:52   Link #244
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Well i am willing to believe that he didn't use it, but the major question on my mind is why wouldn't he...

It can't be that he just wanted a fire vs smoke battle, that would be oout of character for him... he's the kind of fighter who takes every battle seriously and doesn't hold back, and he prides himself on capturing pirates... the moment he knew that the smoke vs fire fight was gonna be too even he would have used his staff... If he had the cahnce to take the upper hand then he would have taken it...

The only reason i could see that he didn't use it is because he couldn't get close enough... So it's like he wanted to use it, but he was waiting to bring Ace's actual body into close combat... Ace's powers do make him very capable of keep a fight to a distance...

If the second is the case, then it means that it would mean that he did want to use the staff, but never got the chance, meaning the use of the staff in a fight against Ace is pretty useless...I mean it would help if Ace got too careless, but the Staff is only good if he can get close enough to Ace's real body to use it

Last edited by Slayerx; 2006-02-09 at 10:16.
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Old 2006-02-09, 10:44   Link #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
Have you seen any of the logia fruit users in a battle? Both Ener and Aokiji have been split in two, and reform, and Smoker and Ace (and Crocodile, I guess, but I'm not happy about labelling him as a logia user) have had damaged bodies, including holes through, and been fine.
No, I was thinking if you actually see them getting hurt. Like Eneru got knocked around, but never just removed the damage done to him (I think, don't have reference at the moment).
Quote:
There is a whole world of difference between logia users and the fruit users like Luffy. They are ice/lighting/fire/smoke/sand with a will.
No, you're just making that up to fit your logic.

Now neodrag, I think you might've misinterpreted Phenomenol's post. He's not saying you win. He's saying let's end the discussion because there's no way anyone here can know the result of an Eneru vs. Mihawk fight. This is because the only things we know about Mihawk is that he's a schichibukai and the best swordsman in the world. Not much to go by, but I wouldn't say these facts speak in favor of Eneru. Eneru's power is unimaginable, however, he has been beaten once, that means he can be beaten. Mihawk on the other hand, hasn't been beaten, we haven't seen any weak points, why then do you people claim him to be destined to lose? For all we know he might be the devil himself.
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Old 2006-02-09, 11:12   Link #246
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
No, I was thinking if you actually see them getting hurt. Like Eneru got knocked around, but never just removed the damage done to him (I think, don't have reference at the moment).No, you're just making that up to fit your logic.
Maybe that has something to do with him still getting hit by Luffy's Gomu Gomu attacks. And also that it remains that this guy took on the full force of Gomu Gomu no Golden Pistol yet still clearly is alive and kicking afterwards. Much less that it's clear that turning his entire form into an elemental state didn't seem to have him still bleeding while he was in it.
Quote:
Now neodrag, I think you might've misinterpreted Phenomenol's post. He's not saying you win.
I'm sorry but I found his willingness to move on in the discussion to be an admirable act rather than ever commenting that I win. I didn't misinterpret his point thinking that I "won." I didn't put that he was being a good loser nor anything about me winning. Thanks for jumping to a conclusion though.
Quote:
Mihawk on the other hand, hasn't been beaten, we haven't seen any weak points, why then do you people claim him to be destined to lose? For all we know he might be the devil himself.
I doubt Mihawk has never once lost a fight in his entire life. And I did not say anything about Mihawk being destined to lose. Just that I found it doubtful that the fight between him and Enel would be a simple matter of him just using one attack that for some strange reason not only cuts through lightning but also forces that logia user into their flesh and blood state to be damage.

But I guess you haven't been reading my post much at all have you since you keep seeming to forget that I made clear that I don't expect it to be 100% in guarantee that Mihawk would lose to Enel.
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Old 2006-02-09, 13:26   Link #247
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Nh1 thankyou, you make good points and you have an open mind but I believe Neodrag understood what I was saying.

Neodrag of course Ener is going to be "alive and kicking" after Luffy's Golden pistol attack because no one dies in the world of One Piece.

Slayerx, you are right he did not use it. It was clearly only a battle of fire and smoke. Smoker said "a battle between fire and smoke is useless, but I guess you knew that Portagas D. Ace." Ace knew this and took advantage of this so he could get away before Smoker broke out his seastone club. If Smoker wanted to have a close range fight with his Seastone it would have been no problem because he would not have been effected by Ace's Fire. Smoker could have made it a hand to hand combat fight but wanted to see a battle between their Logia powers.

MihawkXGP, what's up?
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Old 2006-02-09, 13:53   Link #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Smoker could have made it a hand to hand combat fight but wanted to see a battle between their Logia powers.
This last part is where we disagree... It is out of character for Smoker to simply want to test his logia abilities against Ace's, especially since Ace is a pirate... He would have considered capturing Ace to be a far higher priority... not ot mention he would have done what it takes to get Ace out of the way as fast as possible in order to catch up to Luffy... seriously, had he chosen not to use his staff in order to test his powers against Ace, then he would have been purposely risking the escape of both Luffy and Ace; and that is something Smoker would just not do

The way i see it, Smoker did want to turn it into a close range fight, but was unable to... he wanted to use his staff against Ace, but Ace would not give him the chance... Thanks to the nature of their powers its easy for Ace to keep his distance in a fight, cause mass confusion, and then escape amist the choas... Smoker probably had a hell of a time finding Ace's real body in the middle of all that fire and smoke
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Old 2006-02-09, 14:21   Link #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayerx
This last part is where we disagree... It is out of character for Smoker to simply want to test his logia abilities against Ace's, especially since Ace is a pirate... He would have considered capturing Ace to be a far higher priority... not ot mention he would have done what it takes to get Ace out of the way as fast as possible in order to catch up to Luffy... seriously, had he chosen not to use his staff in order to test his powers against Ace, then he would have been purposely risking the escape of both Luffy and Ace; and that is something Smoker would just not do

The way i see it, Smoker did want to turn it into a close range fight, but was unable to... he wanted to use his staff against Ace, but Ace would not give him the chance... Thanks to the nature of their powers its easy for Ace to keep his distance in a fight, cause mass confusion, and then escape amist the choas... Smoker probably had a hell of a time finding Ace's real body in the middle of all that fire and smoke
Now this is kinda jumping to conclusions, where their is evidence in the anime that Smoker said "a battle betwen fire and smoke is pointless, but you knew that Portagas D. Ace." It is obvious Smoker did not use the stick, Ace knew that a battle between fire and smoke was pointless and took advantage of that and was able to escape. That is how he got away from Smoker, Ace just took advantage of a situation and ran with it.

If Smoker used the stick you would not have seen the collison between fire and smoke ingnite as it did. Quit jumping to conclusions Slayerx.
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Old 2006-02-13, 14:06   Link #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ninraven
To bring up something different for a moment...

In chapter 379, the big fat zipper mouth guy (i think his name is teawase) was able to determine the cp9's "douriki" which was basically physical stength. A normal marine is about 10 douriki. Kalifa was 630, Blueno 820, Kaku 2200 and Lucci was 4000.

I'm sure whoever fights that guy will have his douriki measured. So it probably will be Luffy. It will be interesting to see his strength put in a number. His punch was able to break through Blueno's Tekkai, so he's at least 821.

If Whitebeard is indeed the strongest, I wonder what his douriki is.

Fortunately in the one piece universe, 4000 will not always beat someone who is at 3000. It's not like that in dbz where whoever had the higher powerlevel won. All Teawase measures is physical strength. Much like how your devil fruit power is as only as strong as how you use it.

For instance. Califa is without a doubt physically stronger than Robin. I can't recall Robin ever throwing a punch or kick (iv'e still yet to finish skypiea). But Robin's ability would be able to defeat califa.

It's great oda didn't paint himself into a corner, so to speak, like toriyama did in dragonball.
I AM BACK.......

This I have to agree with. Remember Douriki only measures the Athletics. Just because Lucci has a Doukiri of 4000 does not mean Luffy has to match that to defeat him. How many times have we seen Luffy defeat opponents far Stronger than him (Crocodile, Ener). I beleive now that Luffy is familair with the Cp9's Techniques he can adjust to their style as we seen the fight with Blueno.

The same for a Sanji and Zoro. Just because they are fighting someone with a Douriki of 2,000 or more does not mean overall that they are stronger fighters. Zoro matched Luffy at Whiskey peak when he had no bounty and Luffy had a bounty of 30,000,000. So just because Sanji and Zoro are fighting opponents with about the same Douriki power does not mean that Zoro and Sanji are rivals in fighting. Overall athletics, experience, skills, intelligence and most important Endurance comes into play in a fight.

Until we see Luffy and Zoro fight again to proove who is stronger no one should assume Luffy is automatically stronger just because he fights someone with a douriki of 4000.
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Old 2006-02-14, 03:58   Link #251
MihawkXGP
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Well, it is probably because of Lucci's Zoan ability, he himself said they super-enhance his fighting skills. Lucci is the strongest outta all Cp9.
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Old 2006-02-14, 09:07   Link #252
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
I AM BACK.......

This I have to agree with. Remember Douriki only measures the Athletics. Just because Lucci has a Doukiri of 4000 does not mean Luffy has to match that to defeat him. How many times have we seen Luffy defeat opponents far Stronger than him (Crocodile, Ener). I beleive now that Luffy is familair with the Cp9's Techniques he can adjust to their style as we seen the fight with Blueno.

The same for a Sanji and Zoro. Just because they are fighting someone with a Douriki of 2,000 or more does not mean overall that they are stronger fighters. Zoro matched Luffy at Whiskey peak when he had no bounty and Luffy had a bounty of 30,000,000. So just because Sanji and Zoro are fighting opponents with about the same Douriki power does not mean that Zoro and Sanji are rivals in fighting. Overall athletics, experience, skills, intelligence and most important Endurance comes into play in a fight.

Until we see Luffy and Zoro fight again to proove who is stronger no one should assume Luffy is automatically stronger just because he fights someone with a douriki of 4000.
Except the things that a bounty and douriki are based on differ from each other. And Luffy defeating Crocodile was a matter of surpassing him while with Enel Luffy clearly was a level of ability that made Enel try to avoid fighting him. If you meant by being stronger in terms of having a "better" devil fruit then you do have a point there.

It does remain that overall Lucchi is the stronger member of CP9 which carries alot more significance than beating any of the other CP9 members. Lucchi's level of douriki was said to be unheard of and was measured while he was in his human form.
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Old 2006-02-14, 13:28   Link #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Except the things that a bounty and douriki are based on differ from each other. And Luffy defeating Crocodile was a matter of surpassing him while with Enel Luffy clearly was a level of ability that made Enel try to avoid fighting him. If you meant by being stronger in terms of having a "better" devil fruit then you do have a point there.

It does remain that overall Lucchi is the stronger member of CP9 which carries alot more significance than beating any of the other CP9 members. Lucchi's level of douriki was said to be unheard of and was measured while he was in his human form.
first of all Luffy defeated Crocodile simply by not surpassing him Luffy cheated. I do not want to hear this thing about Luck either because it is nonsense. Crocodile 2/3 fights could have finished Luffy off but underestimated the bastard. I would hardly say Luffy surpassed Crocodile. It was not what Luffy did that defeated Crocodile it was what Crocodile did NOT do.

I will say it again about the Ener situation he got his ass kicked by Luffy, Ener simply relied to much on his Devil Fruit ability.

Bounty: Measures overall strength/Threat level to the government
Douriki: Measures Physical Strength/Athletics

I am not talking about Devil fruit I am talking about Overall Athletics. Just because You have a higher Douriki than someone does not mean that you are a better fighter. Remember Douriki only measures the Athletics/Physical strength, in combat that is thrown out of the window it is the persons overall ability like skills, technique, experience, and endurance that can help win a fight. Hell look at the fight with Blueno and Luffy your telling me that all of a sudden Luffy just got stronger than Blueno after Blueno had already kicked his ass. No that is Luffy's experience and observation skills that came into play learning how to use Soru and mastering it in an insatnt giving him the ability he needs to compete.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2006-02-14 at 13:39.
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Old 2006-02-14, 15:16   Link #254
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
first of all Luffy defeated Crocodile simply by not surpassing him Luffy cheated. I do not want to hear this thing about Luck either because it is nonsense. Crocodile 2/3 fights could have finished Luffy off but underestimated the bastard. I would hardly say Luffy surpassed Crocodile. It was not what Luffy did that defeated Crocodile it was what Crocodile did NOT do.
Crocodile himself said that a pirate duel doesn't know the meaning of cheating. Claiming that you got cheated in a fight is view upon by pirates as the language of a whiny loser. Crocodile clearly commented that Luffy had come through to the point where he would take him seriously. It remains that in the end Crocodile lost to Luffy. So when I say surpassed I don't mean in terms of Luffy pwning him.
Quote:
I will say it again about the Ener situation he got his ass kicked by Luffy, Ener simply relied to much on his Devil Fruit ability.

Bounty: Measures overall strength/Threat level to the government
Douriki: Measures Physical Strength/Athletics
Enel also relied on mantra which of course clearly isn't a result of his devil fruit ability. And that he actually would have varied uses of his devil fruit ability.

You might as well take that logic of yours and say that a swordsman loses because he relies too much upon using their fighting style. But really in the end it should be clear how such logic as a criticism doesn't make sense.
Quote:
I am not talking about Devil fruit I am talking about Overall Athletics. Just because You have a higher Douriki than someone does not mean that you are a better fighter. Remember Douriki only measures the Athletics/Physical strength, in combat that is thrown out of the window it is the persons overall ability like skills, technique, experience, and endurance that can help win a fight. Hell look at the fight with Blueno and Luffy your telling me that all of a sudden Luffy just got stronger than Blueno after Blueno had already kicked his ass. No that is Luffy's experience and observation skills that came into play learning how to use Soru and mastering it in an insatnt giving him the ability he needs to compete.
Physical strength is a reflection of experience, technique, and endurance in its physical form. Lucchi clearly doesn't look like someone that is rated just simply on his muscle count but the matter of how far his training has taken him. And that clearly the douriki amount is suppose to even be beyond what is recorded when Lucchi's devil fruit ability is put into play to reinforce the strength of his combat ability.

And Luffy defeating Blueno is pretty much a show of Luffy surpassing him. And the last time I checked Blueno dodging Luffy's attacks the first time they met for the short amount of time does not equate to getting his butt kicked. You seem to forget that Blueno never even laid a finger on Luffy, along with Luffy being attacked by other CP9 members at the time. So there's a considerable difference of the scenario of the past meeting and the more current one.

Last edited by neodrag38; 2006-02-14 at 15:37.
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Old 2006-02-14, 15:34   Link #255
MihawkXGP
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i said it once before and i'll say it again.
When Pirates fight, there are no rules. Anything Goes. Croc could be accused of cheating for using a poisonous hook.


neodrag summed it all very nicely.
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:05   Link #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Crocodile himself said that a pirate duel doesn't know the meaning of cheating. Claiming that you got cheated in a fight is view upon by pirates as the language of a whiny loser. Crocodile clearly commented that Luffy had come through to the point where he would take him seriously. It remains that in the end Crocodile lost to Luffy. So when I say surpassed I don't mean in terms of Luffy pwning him.

First of all I was talking about how Luffy was coming back from death, and near death. How Nico Robin saved him for what? Why didn't Crocodile make sure the Bastard was dead, why did Crocodile play with him? Like I said it is more of what Crocodile did not do.

Enel also relied on mantra which of course clearly isn't a result of his devil fruit ability. And that he actually would have varied uses of his devil fruit ability.


You might as well take that logic of yours and say that a swordsman loses because he relies too much upon using their fighting style. But really in the end it should be clear how such logic as a criticism doesn't make sense.


Physical strength is a reflection of experience, technique, and endurance in its physical form. Lucchi clearly doesn't look like someone that is rated just simply on his muscle count but the matter of how far his training has taken him. And that clearly the douriki amount is suppose to even be beyond what is recorded when Lucchi's devil fruit ability is put into play to reinforce the strength of his combat ability.


And Luffy defeating Blueno is pretty much a show of Luffy surpassing him. And the last time I checked Blueno dodging Luffy's attacks the first time they met for the short amount of time does not equate to getting his butt kicked. You seem to forget that Blueno never even laid a finger on Luffy, along with Luffy being attacked by other CP9 members at the time. So there's a considerable difference of the scenario of the past meeting and the more current one.
First of all I was talking about how Luffy was coming back from death, and near death. How Nico Robin saved him for what? Why didn't Crocodile make sure the Bastard was dead, why did Crocodile play with him? the way Luffy was coming back to life was stupid cheating. Like I said it is more of what Crocodile did not do.

Mantra? Mantra failed him Luffy found a way to counter even that. I am sorry Luffy was simply a better fighter and Ener relied too much on his Devil fruit.

No a swordsman is well trained to defend, and fight because as a swordsman your body is well trained, experience, intelligence to figure their way out of situations. Not simply just shooting everyone with lighting like Ener. Swordsman do not rely simply on their swords but their Physical abilities asw well.

No Physical strength is just your athletics speed, strength, agility. that is what Douriki measure not fighting skills technique, and experience their is a difference. Even though he has this much power does not mean he is a better fighter than Jabura and also does not mean he will automatically win.

Blueno never even tried to hit Luffy the first time, Blueno was demonstrating his abilitiies to Luffy. Luffy could not even get Blueno out of the way. Blueno could have kicked Luffy's ass if he wanted just like all the other members were doing.
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:09   Link #257
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Just your opinion; not what actually occured. You said that Blueno actually kicked his butt when the fact remains that it didn't occur. You made a statement as if it were a fact; not voicing a what if originally. Could of doesn't mean the same thing as did.

It remains that the situation where Blueno first interacted with Luffy is different from their more recent meeting. Luffy may not seem to know much in terms of book smarts but he at least has the common sense to keep in mind what CP9 can do much less that now he doesn't have to deal with wrestling with just recently losing a crew member and having another one trying to leave without any explanation at all.
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:17   Link #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Just your opinion; not what actually occured. You said that Blueno actually kicked his butt when the fact remains that it didn't occur. You made a statement as if it were a fact; not voicing a what if originally. Could of doesn't mean the same thing as did.

It remains that the situation where Blueno first interacted with Luffy is different from their more recent meeting. Luffy may not seem to know much in terms of book smarts but he at least has the common sense to keep in mind what CP9 can do much less that now he doesn't have to deal with wrestling with just recently losing a crew member and having another one trying to leave without any explanation at all.
Now these are just excuses Neodrag, Blueno could have kicked Luffy's ass if he wanted to. Luffy's observation skills helped him out in the more recent fight. he was able to analayze and register the opponents technique therefore Luffy was able to adjust to their way of fighting. Luffy with his experience is simply the better fighter which resulted in him using the techniques better than Blueno and ultimately defeating him.
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:22   Link #259
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Now these are just excuses Neodrag, Blueno could have kicked Luffy's ass if he wanted to. Luffy's observation skills helped him out in the more recent fight. he was able to analayze and register the opponents technique therefore Luffy was able to adjust to their way of fighting. Luffy with his experience is simply the better fighter which resulted in him using the techniques better than Blueno and ultimately defeating him.
I'm sorry but again you originally put down that something happened when it actually didn't. Whatever the what ifs or could ofs you bring up doesn't cover up what you did.

Usually I would happily go along with you on the route of somewhat changing the subject but now I think you simply need to own up to what you did rather than keep pretending that you didn't just do a corny "switcheroo."
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Old 2006-02-14, 19:25   Link #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
I'm sorry but again you originally put down that something happened when it actually didn't. Whatever the what ifs or could ofs you bring up doesn't cover up what you did.

Usually I would happily go along with you on the route of somewhat changing the subject but now I think you simply need to own up to what you did rather than keep pretending that you didn't just do a corny "switcheroo."
It does not matter, Blueno could of easily kicked Luffy's ass and your just trying to get away from it. The reason why Blueno did not kick his ass because the other members were already handing his ass to him.

So please Neodrag quit running away.
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