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Old 2006-02-15, 13:42   Link #281
Phenomenal
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Let me tell you guys something, This discussion of amperagexvoltage sadly can't be proven. While we have people that survived Enel's attack with a slightly crisped skin he made pieces of land disappear before even having access to the Advent of Thunder. Furthermore we have that gold shaping thing. For that to happen i assume he had to heat the gold to a certain level then "shape it" (this method is unclear but being eletricity you could create mini polarized spots in the places you want gold to fill).

To liquify gold you need to reach 1064.18 C(1947.52 F) and according to wikipedia to make silica aka sand into glass you have to reach 2000C(3600F)

So it all comes down to brains and i think Croc beats Enel in this. Enel isn't exactly dumb, But Crocodile definetly has the skills to combat Ener, Crocodile would have something for Ener.
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Old 2006-02-15, 14:48   Link #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Let me tell you guys something, This discussion of amperagexvoltage sadly can't be proven. While we have people that survived Enel's attack with a slightly crisped skin he made pieces of land disappear before even having access to the Advent of Thunder. Furthermore we have that gold shaping thing. For that to happen i assume he had to heat the gold to a certain level then "shape it" (this method is unclear but being eletricity you could create mini polarized spots in the places you want gold to fill).

To liquify gold you need to reach 1064.18 °C(1947.52 °F) and according to wikipedia to make silica aka sand into glass you have to reach 2000ºC(3600ºF)
This from the guy that kept saying in multiple post that science doesn't exist in One Piece.
Quote:
So it all comes down to brains and i think Croc beats Enel in this. Enel isn't exactly dumb, But Crocodile definetly has the skills to combat Ener, Crocodile would have something for Ener.
And what would that be? Sand clearly isn't gonna do anything to electricity. You saying that Crocodile would have something for Enel is simply a vague opinion of yours where you don't seem to even have a clue in mind as to how Crocodile would combat Enel. You keep talking about brains but what brains has Crocodile shown that would allow him to fight someone he can't hurt, especially when Crocodile has already lost to someone who wasn't exactly a genius. Hell, Crocodile's weakness in itself is pretty much that of an everyday thing that can be found from practically any location.

Especially when you have the usage of dials.
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Old 2006-02-15, 14:49   Link #283
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Millions of volts of Electricity focused at one point can make it super-heated turning it to glass.

You cannot make sand harder. All he did was compact it together so it became harder. I've done it myself, many times- many you should as well.


You don't really think much of Enel do you?
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Old 2006-02-15, 15:06   Link #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MihawkXGP
Millions of volts of Electricity focused at one point can make it super-heated turning it to glass.
Luffy didn't melt though.
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Old 2006-02-15, 15:14   Link #285
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Luffy is rubber. So he wouldn't melt.
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Old 2006-02-15, 15:18   Link #286
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Rubber melts at a lower temperature than sand.
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Old 2006-02-15, 15:36   Link #287
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Rubber doesn't bounce bullets. It should be obvious that a devil fruit isn't exactly be confined to normal literals of its name.
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Old 2006-02-15, 15:42   Link #288
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And of course that only goes for Luffy's fruit.
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Old 2006-02-15, 16:10   Link #289
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Uh, no. It's pretty much for the same for any fruit since most or all of them aren't that literal. Chopper ate the Hito Hito fruit yet clearly he can't become completely human. Robin has the Flora Flora fruit but clearly her ability isn't literally that of flowers in the plant sense. So obviously it should be clear that the devil fruit ability isn't gonna be a literal and limited thing based on the name of that fruit in such a narrow sense.
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Old 2006-02-15, 16:39   Link #290
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Err... Yeah, that post was to make sure it would go for Crocodile's fruit as well.

I guess I should've asked you to tell me the relevance of your point. I mean, the statement was that sand will melt, yet we know rubber didn't. I'm not questioning Oda's logic, I'm questioning MihawkXGP's logic.
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Old 2006-02-15, 17:54   Link #291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
Err... Yeah, that post was to make sure it would go for Crocodile's fruit as well.

I guess I should've asked you to tell me the relevance of your point. I mean, the statement was that sand will melt, yet we know rubber didn't. I'm not questioning Oda's logic, I'm questioning MihawkXGP's logic.
Thankyou nh1, It applies to all devil fruits Enere could not melt rubber and lighting can melt rubber, so who the hell is too say that Ener can turn sand into glass. Crocodile can compact a whole bunch of sand to where it hardens enough where he can ground Ener's lightning. Hell he will dry the whole land out, or even create Dessert Strorms.

Like I said none of you guys will never know, all of the posts that we have means nothing because Logic means nothing. I question everyone's logic about the situation because Lighting can melt rubber in reality but once again that is not the case in the anime world.

Crocodile is Stronger than Ener Period.

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Old 2006-02-15, 18:04   Link #292
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nh1
Err... Yeah, that post was to make sure it would go for Crocodile's fruit as well.

I guess I should've asked you to tell me the relevance of your point. I mean, the statement was that sand will melt, yet we know rubber didn't. I'm not questioning Oda's logic, I'm questioning MihawkXGP's logic.
And the same goes for Enel's fruit.

Just that Luffy's devil fruit is the only existing weakness, as far as things are shown, besides that of seastone for Enel's fruit. That at least we have some existing logic point that would give Enel an advantage. I pretty much made it clear that either Enel has the advantage in some form since he has more options with his abilities or that the fight would be a draw where neither individual can harm the other.
Quote:
Thankyou nh1, It applies to all devil fruits Enere could not melt rubber and lighting can melt rubber, so who the hell is too say that Ener can turn sand into glass. Crocodile can compact a whole bunch of sand to where it hardens enough where he can ground Ener's lightning. Hell he will dry the whole land out, or even create Dessert Strorms.
And Enel can obliterate existing minerals to the point of obliterating an entire cloud island. Drying out land isn't gonna do anything to Enel and a desert storm also clearly isn't going to be enough to manipulate something as strong and fast as that of lightning.
Quote:
Like I said none of you guys will never know, all of the posts that we have means nothing because Logic means nothing. I question everyone's logic about the situation because Lighting can melt rubber in reality but once again that is not the case in the anime world.
Dude, you are so contradicting yourself again. You earlier tried using logic yet now say that logic can't be used. You really have a problem with remaining consistent at some level. It remains that Luffy's body isn't composed of normal rubber in terms of the limited existing substance just like how Hisoka hatsu isn't just simply literally being composed of gum.

You still don't have any proof that Crocodile is totally the victor in a bout against Enel since all you have put down is that you consider Crocodile smarter and that he should come up with something that you still fail to specify.
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Old 2006-02-15, 18:13   Link #293
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
And the same goes for Enel's fruit.

Just that Luffy's devil fruit is the only existing weakness, as far as things are shown, besides that of seastone for Enel's fruit. That at least we have some existing logic point that would give Enel an advantage. I pretty much made it clear that either Enel has the advantage in some form since he has more options with his abilities or that the fight would be a draw where neither individual can harm the other.

And Enel can obliterate existing minerals to the point of obliterating an entire cloud island. Drying out land isn't gonna do anything to Enel and a desert storm also clearly isn't going to be enough to manipulate something as strong and fast as that of lightning.

Dude, you are so contradicting yourself again. You earlier tried using logic yet now say that logic can't be used. You really have a problem with remaining consistent at some level. It remains that Luffy's body isn't composed of normal rubber in terms of the limited existing substance just like how Hisoka hatsu isn't just simply literally being composed of gum.

You still don't have any proof that Crocodile is totally the victor in a bout against Enel since all you have put down is that you consider Crocodile smarter and that he should come up with something that you still fail to specify.

Your first paragraph is bull until the part where Crocodile and Ener might end up in a draw.

Like I told you Crocodile can compact his sand so that it can be hard enogh to ground Ener.

I am not contradicting myself if you read what I put I said even our logic means nothing in the world of One Piece. I meant We which includes myself. Your analysis on Luffy's body not being normal rubber is bull as well. Ener's Lighting should have melted it but like I said physics and all that other garbage is thrown out the window.

Crocodile will win because he can compact his sand which will make it hard enough to Ground Ener Completely. Which will obviously nullify Ener's oh so precious ability. Crocodilie is clearly smarter than Ener and he will be able to adjust in the fight.
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Old 2006-02-15, 18:24   Link #294
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Your first paragraph is bull until the part where Crocodile and Ener might end up in a draw.

Like I told you Crocodile can compact his sand so that it can be hard enogh to ground Ener.
Hard enough how? Enel can make his body that of an non-physical substance and clearly isn't slow. That no matter what Crocodile does he is still making usage of sand which of course is a physical substance. The controls sand and makes himself out of it yet clearly it's not like every grain of sand is suppose to be any stronger than an everyday grain of sand.
Quote:
I am not contradicting myself if you read what I put I said even our logic means nothing in the world of One Piece. I meant We which includes myself. Your analysis on Luffy's body not being normal rubber is bull as well. Ener's Lighting should have melted it but like I said physics and all that other garbage is thrown out the window.
Dude, you put down you went to wikipedia for logic based information. I'm hoping that you are just pretending to forget that you did do that since then I would have to truly worry about whether or not you have that much of a memory.

And if you put down logic yet say it means nothing that means you are not only contradicting yourself but wasting time. It remains that Luffy being made of rubber isn't meant in terms of just simply normal rubber that couldn't stretch as far as Luffy can do with body much less bounce bullets. That the names for each of the devil fruit abilities aren't that of a literal where you simply just do one limited thing. Since if it was Crocodile would then by that logic only be able to simly turn into a mass of size equal to the mass of his body. But since he can do more than that this alone makes it clear.
Quote:
Crocodile will win because he can compact his sand which will make it hard enough to Ground Ener Completely. Which will obviously nullify Ener's oh so precious ability. Crocodilie is clearly smarter than Ener and he will be able to adjust in the fight.
How exactly? How would it be "hard" enough to ground Enel when the guy clearly is using a devil fruit consisting of a non-physical substance with Enel being able to wipe out an entire island. And again you keep talking about Crocodile being smarter yet again him being smart didn't mean as much in the very end where he plan fell apart. Being devious and sneaky when it comes to manipulating a desert island doesn't equate to combat genius that negates the fact that Enel is composed of a non-physical substance, can obliterates minerals, has the usage of mantra, and the use of dials with Crocodile having an ability that is limited in terms of its weakness being that of a liquid that is or has H20 within it.
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Old 2006-02-15, 18:33   Link #295
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You see, for the sake of simplicity, and not to confuse poeple who don't know science, Oda seems to use the generalizations behind elemental relationships and not the absolutely realistic

Rubber is well known for bouncing, stretching, and being resiliant to electicity... So luffy's abilities are made so that he can bounce anything back, stretch to redicious amounts and resist any amount of electricity... ignoring things like how objects with enough force would tear through rubber, the more resiliant rubber is the less it stretchs, and the heat caused by lightning should cause rubber to burn and melt...

Oda isn't the only one that does this, many animators use the general well known relationships over the literal, particularly for shows meant for younger audiences... i'm certain Oda isn't the first to say rubber>lightning... its a bit of a plot device, but its used to limit questions and keep it simple for the kids... remember one piece was made for a younger audience... not the science savy... if it was meant to be 100% accurate, then you'd know that their would be MANY things wrong in one piece

The generalization between Sand and heat is that under extreme heat, sand melts and turns into glass (since thats part of how glass is made)... it's similiar to the relationships between metal and heat, and gold and heat...
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Old 2006-02-15, 18:33   Link #296
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Hard enough how? Enel can make his body that of an non-physical substance and clearly isn't slow. That no matter what Crocodile does he is still making usage of sand which of course is a physical substance. The controls sand and makes himself out of it yet clearly it's not like every grain of sand is suppose to be any stronger than an everyday grain of sand.

Dude, you put down you went to wikipedia for logic based information. I'm hoping that you are just pretending to forget that you did do that since then I would have to truly worry about whether or not you have that much of a memory.

And if you put down logic yet say it means nothing that means you are not only contradicting yourself but wasting time. It remains that Luffy being made of rubber isn't meant in terms of just simply normal rubber that couldn't stretch as far as Luffy can do with body much less bounce bullets. That the names for each of the devil fruit abilities aren't that of a literal where you simply just do one limited thing. Since if it was Crocodile would then by that logic only be able to simly turn into a mass of size equal to the mass of his body. But since he can do more than that this alone makes it clear.

How exactly? How would it be "hard" enough to ground Enel when the guy clearly is using a devil fruit consisting of a non-physical substance with Enel being able to wipe out an entire island. And again you keep talking about Crocodile being smarter yet again him being smart didn't mean as much in the very end where he plan fell apart. Being devious and sneaky when it comes to manipulating a desert island doesn't equate to combat genius that negates the fact that Enel is composed of a non-physical substance, can obliterates minerals, has the usage of mantra, and the use of dials with Crocodile having an ability that is limited in terms of its weakness being that of a liquid that is or has H20 within it.
Crocodile can manipulate his sand hard enough to cut stone, rocks, and medal. that's how hard he can compact his sand and ground Ener. The ground simply can not conduct electricity which will nullify Ener. Ener even if he turns into his non physical form Crocodile can still hit him becasue he can not simply conduct electricity.

Logic is thrown out of the window, becasue if Logic was in this anime Ener would have melted Luffy. Rubber melts at a lower temperature than sand. So that would mean he could not hurt Crocodile if you were using logic but their is no logic in the anime world
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Old 2006-02-15, 18:47   Link #297
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Crocodile can manipulate his sand hard enough to cut stone, rocks, and medal. that's how hard he can compact his sand and ground Ener. The ground simply can not conduct electricity which will nullify Ener. Ener even if he turns into his non physical form Crocodile can still hit him becasue he can not simply conduct electricity.
He simply packs it together to do these things rather than transforming the sand into another substance entirely since that point he wouldn't be controlling hand. It still remains that with H20 his offensive attacks nullified as shown when Luffy's blood covered fist punched right through a spada.

And that Enel isn't the type that just simply stands there to get yet much less that it remains that Enel wiped out an entire island. That what you speak in terms of a ground absorbing a lightning bolt doesn't mean much in comparison to a compacted large mass of the stuff impacting with a mineral.
Quote:
Logic is thrown out of the window, becasue if Logic was in this anime Ener would have melted Luffy. Rubber melts at a lower temperature than sand. So that would mean he could not hurt Crocodile if you were using logic but their is no logic in the anime world
Except that Luffy's ability is based around a generality of rubber rather than the narrow science. While with Crocodile his ability is also based on a generality except that I don't remember Crocodile displaying that a grain of sand he manipulates has anymore strength than another of everyday variety. Basically pretty much what Slayerx just put down.

Clearly it was made quite clear before Luffy ever got to Skypiea that him being a rubber man wasn't just simply a matter of rubber that is limited in the way Slayerx described and that Robin's Flora Flora ability doesn't work in the narrow way that you would have imagined before we see her truly show off its usage.
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Old 2006-02-15, 18:58   Link #298
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
He simply packs it together to do these things rather than transforming the sand into another substance entirely since that point he wouldn't be controlling hand. It still remains that with H20 his offensive attacks nullified as shown when Luffy's blood covered fist punched right through a spada.

And that Enel isn't the type that just simply stands there to get yet much less that it remains that Enel wiped out an entire island. That what you speak in terms of a ground absorbing a lightning bolt doesn't mean much in comparison to a compacted large mass of the stuff impacting with a mineral.

Except that Luffy's ability is based around a generality of rubber rather than the narrow science. While with Crocodile his ability is also based on a generality except that I don't remember Crocodile displaying that a grain of sand he manipulates has anymore strength than another of everyday variety. Basically pretty much what Slayerx just put down.
First of all you keep talking about non sense stuff that is unimportant.

No he does not simply pack the sand together, when it moves at that speed he is using it. you remember what he told Luffy "Depending on how you use the ability of the Devil Fruit, It can become Stronger." So it is obvious that Crocodile's sand is not normal he can make it as hard as he wants. Hell he turns it into cutting objects, hell even creates a heavy pressure power ball that can DESTROY Buildings completely. I've never seen electricty come out of sand before, reason being it shows how strong his ability is.

Crocodile will ground Ener which will nullify him. Crocodile is simply stronger than Ener. Crocodile can also adjust.
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Old 2006-02-15, 19:18   Link #299
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
No he does not simply pack the sand together, when it moves at that speed he is using it. you remember what he told Luffy "Depending on how you use the ability of the Devil Fruit, It can become Stronger." So it is obvious that Crocodile's sand is not normal he can make it as hard as he wants. Hell he turns it into cutting objects, hell even creates a heavy pressure power ball that can DESTROY Buildings completely. I've never seen electricty come out of sand before, reason being it shows how strong his ability is.
No, just amasses it together to create a physical attack yet clearly his attacks are still composed of sand. They don't actually come together into the form of a solid rock.

And again it remains that his offensive attacks are nullified when touched upon a liquid substance that is or has H20 within it. If the given fact of Crocodile's weakness is simply labeled as nonsense by you it truly reflects again you focusing only on what you want to while ignoring what would go against your argument.
Quote:
Crocodile will ground Ener which will nullify him. Crocodile is simply stronger than Ener. Crocodile can also adjust.
Not when Enel clearly isn't slow and that Crocodile's way of fighting is that of offensive and defensive attacks that depend quite heavily on the target being of a solid substance that doesn't have H20 covering and sucking away at moisture. Neither of which Enel is.

You are still just simply saying that Crocodile will win based on vague commentary.
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Old 2006-02-15, 19:23   Link #300
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
No, just amasses it together to create a physical attack yet clearly his attacks are still composed of sand. They don't actually come together into the form of a solid rock.

And again it remains that his offensive attacks are nullified when touched upon a liquid substance that is or has H20 within it.

Not when Enel clearly isn't slow and that Crocodile's way of fighting is that of offensive and defensive attacks that depend quite heavily on the target being of a solid substance that doesn't have H20 covering and sucking away at moisture. Neither of which Enel is.

You are still just simply saying that Crocodile will win based on vague commentary.
No your first sentence is complete and absolute Bull....

H20, you act if Ener is going to touch Crocodile with it. Crocodile will suck the water right up. Don't thwart his abilities Neodrag

Now this third paragraph is bull as well. Crocodile can simply ground Ener therefore his electricity has no effect at all. Ener is defeated.
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