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Old 2006-02-03, 18:33   Link #101
Phenomenal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
Who? Smoker is AS powerful as Ener, e.g neither can hurt the other, I don't class the metal guy as elemental, and who did Crocodile beat? Mr. 3? Wax is not an element. Hmm, Dragon vs. Ener - storm vs lightning, though we need more Dragon info.


Er, Zoro tried to defeat Ener. AND LOST. All you've said is that they 'can easily defeat him'. HOW? The whole 'steel cutting thing'... He's not made of matter, he's made of ENERGY. LIGHT. Try cutting light, it doesn't work. Unless Shanks or Mihawk can attack energy or use seastone to trap him, they're screwed.

The only reason Luffy beat Ener is the non-conductivity of his body. Whitebeard must have some logia-defense beyond personality, otherwise Ace would be in charge. Maybe Shanks and Mihawk have something similar. We don't know.

Ener is still really damn hard, and you'll have to do a better job of convincing me otherwise than you've done so far.

First of all Smoker has a Seastone Sword that will easily nullify Ener's ability and keep him immobilized. Smoker will defeat Ener.

First of all Zoro was very weak in that entire Arc. I thought that he did not get enough thought into his abilities. As far as Zoro's "Cutting the Breath of all Things" goes it is not for just steel. It is for all things including lighting, Thunder, Smoke etc. This is an anime you have characters with the ability to move faster than lighting and also CUT lightining. Zoro with that Technique can cut anything. "The Breath to Cut all Things". Rewatch episode 119 it explains it clearly. Mihawk and Shanks were rivals in the past which are obviously higher class than Zoro. Their abilities are greater than Zoro's. If you can not defeat Zoro you have no chance at defeating Shanks or Mihawk.

Luffy was Rubber so Ener tried to defeat him physically instead with out his lighting. Yet Ener could not even contend with Luffy in Physical ability that is why he provoked him into attacking him and merged him with a Golden Bell too slow down his speed and stamina. Ener would have lost to Luffy even with his Trident and Mantra. This shows that he relied too much on his Logia ability and not enough on combat skills.

Ener is overrated, if he is so powerful he still should have been able to contend with Luffy another way, not even his combat skills were enough or mantra to beat Luffy hand to hand. Try again persuading me why he should be considered powerful.
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Old 2006-02-03, 18:53   Link #102
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Ener versus,

Smoker: Run away! Light is faster than smoke. Draw.

Zoro: Lightning strike. He's also too fast to hit, as Zoro does not move at the speed of light. NO-ONE else can, except Ener. Ener wins.

Luffy: In that same situation, why not cover his face and head in gold? Suffocate him? One way for Ener to win that.


Most OP characters have someone they cannot (normally) beat, for instance Smoker and Ace can only draw, but Aokiji can freeze the water molecules in Smoker's clouds and win, but Ace can defeat Aokiji. Just because the person Ener can't really defeat is the main character doesn't mean he's weak.

And I have only read the manga so far, and it doesn't say Zoro can cut lightning. As yet, we haven't seen how a sword user can defeat any of the three elemental Fruit users (four if we count Dragon as air).
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Old 2006-02-03, 19:08   Link #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
Ener versus,

Smoker: Run away! Light is faster than smoke. Draw.

Zoro: Lightning strike. He's also too fast to hit, as Zoro does not move at the speed of light. NO-ONE else can, except Ener. Ener wins.

Luffy: In that same situation, why not cover his face and head in gold? Suffocate him? One way for Ener to win that.


Most OP characters have someone they cannot (normally) beat, for instance Smoker and Ace can only draw, but Aokiji can freeze the water molecules in Smoker's clouds and win, but Ace can defeat Aokiji. Just because the person Ener can't really defeat is the main character doesn't mean he's weak.

And I have only read the manga so far, and it doesn't say Zoro can cut lightning. As yet, we haven't seen how a sword user can defeat any of the three elemental Fruit users (four if we count Dragon as air).
If Ener is so Fast why could he not dodge Luffy's Golden Pistol attack. The Golden Pistol was faster than Ener himself that is why Ener Said I quote: "So Fast". Are you crazy no one else moves at the speed of light? Did you see Mihawk Fight Zoro that Monster Mihawk displayed speed way faster than Ener and he wasn't even trying.

Zoro can cut lighting because it has a breath, as a swordsman all things have a breath, and with that breath Zoro can cut anything including Lighting.
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Old 2006-02-03, 19:21   Link #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
First of all Smoker has a Seastone Sword that will easily nullify Ener's ability and keep him immobilized. Smoker will defeat Ener.
Like he defeated Ace? Oh yeah, he didn't. And the thing isn't a sword.
Quote:
First of all Zoro was very weak in that entire Arc. I thought that he did not get enough thought into his abilities. As far as Zoro's "Cutting the Breath of all Things" goes it is not for just steel. It is for all things including lighting, Thunder, Smoke etc. This is an anime you have characters with the ability to move faster than lighting and also CUT lightining. Zoro with that Technique can cut anything. "The Breath to Cut all Things". Rewatch episode 119 it explains it clearly. Mihawk and Shanks were rivals in the past which are obviously higher class than Zoro. Their abilities are greater than Zoro's. If you can not defeat Zoro you have no chance at defeating Shanks or Mihawk.
Still speculation. Nothing has been offered that includes non-physical substances possessing the breath. Not saying that it's impossible but all you have is speculation so it would be nice if you state what you think without it coming off that you are stating fact.

And where exactly do we have characters cutting lightning? It remains that Zoro knew the breath yet he clearly didn't seem to think he cut Enel much less cut through his logia based attacks.
Quote:
Luffy was Rubber so Ener tried to defeat him physically instead with out his lighting. Yet Ener could not even contend with Luffy in Physical ability that is why he provoked him into attacking him and merged him with a Golden Bell too slow down his speed and stamina. Ener would have lost to Luffy even with his Trident and Mantra. This shows that he relied too much on his Logia ability and not enough on combat skills.

Ener is overrated, if he is so powerful he still should have been able to contend with Luffy another way, not even his combat skills were enough or mantra to beat Luffy hand to hand. Try again persuading me why he should be considered powerful.
Uh, Mantra counts as an ability seperate from his logia ability. Mantra is actually a skill that more than one person can develop into usage. You might as well say that a swordsman relies too much on their swords simply because their opponent surpassed their ability in combat. So you are bringing up what is more of a generality rather than something unique.

EDIT: And by the way, it's clear that Enel wasn't even trying to dodge Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Golden Pistol when he commented on how fast it was moving. He decided to hold his ground with commenting that he found its rotation to be rather quick is all. And the fact that he lived through that and even was able to move his body when we last saw him heading towards the moon that this guy can really take his punishment.
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Old 2006-02-03, 19:28   Link #105
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It is useless to introduce real world physics into an anime discussion, as they just don't apply, so I won't even though I had a great defense planned.

But we've seen Zoro cut Aokiji in half, just to see him reform afterwards, and there's no reason that Ener would be any different, or whether Mihawk could do any better. It's not like they're cutting into a biological system of tubes that's keeping them alive, as the ele's gone beyond that. All the elemental users we've seen have literally become their element, be it fire, ice or lightning. You cut fire, or lightning in half, you can put them together again without trouble, unlike flesh.

As for Luffy, maybe the presence of his non-conductive body slows Ener down, I don't know (I'm not going to say plotshield, this isn't the Gundam forum). But against almost everybody else out of the powerful people, that isn't his natural enemy, Ener is a very strong opponent.
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Old 2006-02-03, 19:30   Link #106
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Zoro cut Aokiji in half? Last I checked Zoro tried to cut Aokiji with the result being of Aokiji freezing his arm without receiving any actual damage whatsoever. I guess you are refering to Robin breaking Aokiji in half with Flora Flora no Clutch.

EDIT: But really the problem that comes to mind with the breath thing is that it would need to do alot more for the purpose of taking out a logia user. With Das Bones aka Mr. 1 it was simply a matter of Zoro needing to cut through his steel frame to get to his fleshy insides since he should be be flesh under that metal. While with Logia their entire molecular structure can be transformed into a non-physical substance. Even with what Aokiji does in terms of turning into ice actually cutting him can occur in terms of ice being cuttable yet of course this does actually hurt him. So even in the case of it being possible to do damage to a logia user there also exist the issue of them simply needing to change into their logia form to negate the occurence of an injury. Though of course it remains that combat would tire them out sooner or later but it takes alot a key moment to deliver an amount of damage at once that makes it possible to incapacitate them.

In short, the breath would have to go beyond simply cutting of the element but also make it somehow that the element turns back into flesh which comes off a bit of a complication. So either the breath in some weird way does this or a swordsman has to deliver a blow right when the logia user is in their in flesh and bone form while doing so that they don't get a chance to still use their ability to simply negate this blow. To permenantly kill a logia user would truly be a bitch to do when relying solely upon your skill in combat and using the seastone doesn't seem to be much a thing to make victory feel good afterwards nor that the use of the seastone against logia users would still be limited in terms of actually touching them with it and making sure that they can't come back at you when it's removed. But really I think One Piece would be alot more boring if it was so easy to take out individuals with the rarest type of devil fruit, especially when they have a variety of attacks while knowing of the well known existing factors that could lead to their deaths. Aokiji should at least have enough experience with ability and knowledge in terms of making sure not to sustain damage nor be weakened by the enemy using a seastone. But of course this a bit of what has been shown in the manga and my own opinion.
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Old 2006-02-03, 19:35   Link #107
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Oh, OK. Well, he cut SOMEONE in half, and I'm sure it's Ener, while doing no damage.

(Time for a manga re-read, methinks. I read up to 396 from the start from Monday to Wednesday and I want a reminder of what cool things happen where)
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Old 2006-02-03, 19:47   Link #108
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Yeah, it was Enel that he "cut" in half with it not doing any real damage. Of course metal would pass through a mass of non-physical substance like lightning but it doesn't cut in terms of killing Enel nor even making him bleed.

And happy reading.
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Old 2006-02-04, 10:17   Link #109
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does anyone else think that whitebeard might not actually be the strongest, and it's just a fancy title? i mean a name can get you pretty far. people might just be afraid to fight him because he tied gol d. roger WAY back. i mean look at the guy, he's hooked up to a ton of iv's and nurses looking after him.
if he still is though, he must be one spry mofo
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Old 2006-02-04, 10:42   Link #110
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Yet the guy is drinking barrels worth of alcohol. It should be clear that Whitebeard is feared beyond simply that of his name. It wasn't simply a matter of any of the characters saying that he's the strongest man in the world but the mangaka himself labeling this character so.

But of course there is a possibility he isn't the strongest but till we are shown that Oda was "lying" so far he remains being the only one labeled by Oda himself to be the strongest man in the world.
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Old 2006-02-04, 11:10   Link #111
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Originally Posted by yamato_D
does anyone else think that whitebeard might not actually be the strongest, and it's just a fancy title? i mean a name can get you pretty far. people might just be afraid to fight him because he tied gol d. roger WAY back. i mean look at the guy, he's hooked up to a ton of iv's and nurses looking after him.
if he still is though, he must be one spry mofo

Whitebeard, despite what he may look like at the moment, should be given the benefit of the doubt. oda gave him that title for a reason. If we assume Roger would be able to defeat anyone in the current OP world, we have to believe WB would also.
Lets not also forget that Oda has sprung some big surprises on us in the past.


As for the whole Enel matter- As great as Mihawk and shanks might be, i do not believe they could defeat him.

Have you even seen his Raigo attack? or that God of Thunder form he became, in that mode, his powers are unbelievable. Not many people, could withstand that kind of power, no matter how good a swordsman they are.

Swords of metal cannot cut through Lighting. Enel's speed is far too great.
And despite what Luffy said, that don't mean, Mihawk could beat him.


Luffy might have beaten him, that was only due to his Rubber properties, and that Golden Bell.

And last i checked, Seastone isn't that widely available. Marines are the biggest users of the stuff.
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Old 2006-02-04, 14:28   Link #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MihawkXGP
Whitebeard, despite what he may look like at the moment, should be given the benefit of the doubt. oda gave him that title for a reason. If we assume Roger would be able to defeat anyone in the current OP world, we have to believe WB would also.
Lets not also forget that Oda has sprung some big surprises on us in the past.


As for the whole Enel matter- As great as Mihawk and shanks might be, i do not believe they could defeat him.

Have you even seen his Raigo attack? or that God of Thunder form he became, in that mode, his powers are unbelievable. Not many people, could withstand that kind of power, no matter how good a swordsman they are.

Swords of metal cannot cut through Lighting. Enel's speed is far too great.
And despite what Luffy said, that don't mean, Mihawk could beat him.

Luffy might have beaten him, that was only due to his Rubber properties, and that Golden Bell.

And last i checked, Seastone isn't that widely available. Marines are the biggest users of the stuff.
You guys need to realize, Ener would not survive in the seas as matter of fact why are we even talking about someone who was defeated by Luffy. It does not matter if Luffy was made of Rubber and could not conduct electricity Ener should have been able to defeat Luffy with his combat skills but he couldn't. Luffy pounded Ener into submission, he did it so badly that Ener did not want to fight him. Monster's like Smoker and Aokiji who Luffy lost to flat out are more powerful than Ener. Ener is not a high profile character who would not survive in the seas. Yes MihawkXGP I 've seen all Ener's attacks.

Who told you MihawkXGP, and Neodrag that a swordsman can not cut through lighting? This is the anime world physics do not apply, Let me tell you guys about Zoro's Breath. Watch Episode 119 it explains it clearly. Neodrag you do not need to explain anything about the Breath because Oda stated himself. "The Power to cut Steel and the Breath of all things" it was not just for steel, but it concluded "and the breath of all things". Everything has a breath Ener's lighting, Smoker's smoke, Ace's fire, and other Logia user's. Zoro can easily cut anything because everything has a distinct presence that swordsman can only sense and hear. "In this world we live in, there are swordsman who can cut nothing." However those same swordsman can cut steel or anything else they wish." "all with the same katana." Also Zoro's Technique allows him to detect and read the breath of things, for example Zoro says "I dodged these rocks?" No I knew where they wouldn't fall." I felt the presence of the rocks as they fell, as if they were living things." Once again Swordsman can cut Ener in the world of One Piece Powerful Swordsman like Mihawk and Shanks that are above Zoro. Once again physics do not apply, in the world of One Piece swordsman can cut anything.

Also Neodrag Shanks and Mihawk were rivals. Just because it was past tense does not mean they are not rivals or equals in terms of skill. In Oda's red data book. Anyway, what it says on that page:

本来左ききであるシャンクスはかつて、右の腰に長剣を携えていた。 ミホークとライバルだった過去からみて も、その剣の実力は世界でもトップクラスだ ったのだろう

"At first, the left-handed Shanks had simply carried his sword on the right side. When he was a rival of Mihawk, he was regarded as having some of the world's top-class skills"

As an addendum to that, Shanks carries a longsword. Mihawk and Shanks are powerful more powerful than Ener.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2006-02-04 at 14:40.
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Old 2006-02-04, 15:32   Link #113
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
You guys need to realize, Ener would not survive in the seas as matter of fact why are we even talking about someone who was defeated by Luffy. It does not matter if Luffy was made of Rubber and could not conduct electricity Ener should have been able to defeat Luffy with his combat skills but he couldn't. Luffy pounded Ener into submission, he did it so badly that Ener did not want to fight him. Monster's like Smoker and Aokiji who Luffy lost to flat out are more powerful than Ener. Ener is not a high profile character who would not survive in the seas. Yes MihawkXGP I 've seen all Ener's attacks.

Who told you MihawkXGP, and Neodrag that a swordsman can not cut through lighting? This is the anime world physics do not apply, Let me tell you guys about Zoro's Breath. Watch Episode 119 it explains it clearly. Neodrag you do not need to explain anything about the Breath because Oda stated himself. "The Power to cut Steel and the Breath of all things" it was not just for steel, but it concluded "and the breath of all things". Everything has a breath Ener's lighting, Smoker's smoke, Ace's fire, and other Logia user's. Zoro can easily cut anything because everything has a distinct presence that swordsman can only sense and hear. "In this world we live in, there are swordsman who can cut nothing." However those same swordsman can cut steel or anything else they wish." "all with the same katana." Also Zoro's Technique allows him to detect and read the breath of things, for example Zoro says "I dodged these rocks?" No I knew where they wouldn't fall." I felt the presence of the rocks as they fell, as if they were living things." Once again Swordsman can cut Ener in the world of One Piece Powerful Swordsman like Mihawk and Shanks that are above Zoro. Once again physics do not apply, in the world of One Piece swordsman can cut anything.

Also Neodrag Shanks and Mihawk were rivals. Just because it was past tense does not mean they are not rivals or equals in terms of skill. In Oda's red data book. Anyway, what it says on that page:

本来左ききであるシャンクスはかつて、右の腰に長剣を携えていた。 ミホークとライバルだった過去からみて も、その剣の実力は世界でもトップクラスだ ったのだろう

"At first, the left-handed Shanks had simply carried his sword on the right side. When he was a rival of Mihawk, he was regarded as having some of the world's top-class skills"

As an addendum to that, Shanks carries a longsword. Mihawk and Shanks are powerful more powerful than Ener.

Physics or breath , regardless, doesn't mean anything.
Lighting cannot be Cut with Metal. Enel isn't high profile? You can't be serious?
Enel's devil's fruit, as mentioned by Robin, is one the most powerful DF you'll ever come across, not to mention, practically invincible.

Luffy didn't beat him into submission. Now Crocodile, that was a real beating. What luffy did to Enel was a 1 off. Smoker and Koji might be powerful, i'll give them that. That don't mean, they could beat Enel.

I do not believe for a second, no matter how good Mihawk and Shanks are with swords, doesn't make a lick of Differance. Enel would own them.

You really do underestimate Enel by a lot.
I recall you doing the same with Lucci by calling him a weakling
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Old 2006-02-04, 15:43   Link #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MihawkXGP
Physics or breath , regardless, doesn't mean anything.
Lighting cannot be Cut with Metal. Enel isn't high profile? You can't be serious?
Enel's devil's fruit, as mentioned by Robin, is one the most powerful DF you'll ever come across, not to mention, practically invincible.

Luffy didn't beat him into submission. Now Crocodile, that was a real beating. What luffy did to Enel was a 1 off. Smoker and Koji might be powerful, i'll give them that. That don't mean, they could beat Enel.

I do not believe for a second, no matter how good Mihawk and Shanks are with swords, doesn't make a lick of Differance. Enel would own them.

You really do underestimate Enel by a lot.
I recall you doing the same with Lucci by calling him a weakling
You obviously are beating around the bush, how can you say none of that matters when I gave you clear facts that Swordsman in the world of one piece can cut anything it's in the manga and anime. You MihawkXGP need to rewatch episodes and reread the Manga.

"In this world we live in, there are swordsman who can cut nothing." However those same swordsman can cut steel or anything else they wish." "all with the same katana."
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Old 2006-02-04, 16:03   Link #115
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OK, let's see... If Mihawk cut Ener in half, what would happen? Nothing. He would simply reform and blast him. Mihawk could try to slice him up as much as he liked, but it wouldn't hurt him in the slightest. Same with Ace, or Smoker.

You keep mumbling about how expert swordsmen can cut anything, but what would that really do to a flame? Or a cloud of smoke? Or a lightning bolt? Once again, nothing.
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Old 2006-02-04, 16:09   Link #116
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
OK, let's see... If Mihawk cut Ener in half, what would happen? Nothing. He would simply reform and blast him. Mihawk could try to slice him up as much as he liked, but it wouldn't hurt him in the slightest. Same with Ace, or Smoker.

You keep mumbling about how expert swordsmen can cut anything, but what would that really do to a flame? Or a cloud of smoke? Or a lightning bolt? Once again, nothing.
Did you read my last post all things have a breath, which allows all things to be cut so if Ener or smoker got cut they will be damaged because of the breath of their elements.

"In this world we live in, there are swordsman who can cut nothing." However those same swordsman can cut steel or anything else they wish." "all with the same katana."
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Old 2006-02-04, 16:32   Link #117
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You are repeating yourself without thinking. Have an example...

"Zoro faced off against (insert elemental enemy here), listening to the breath of his enemy. Timing it perfectly, he swung, and cut him cleanly in two. As he watched, the two halves turned into (element his opponent uses) and reformed, to show (whoever) standing there, completely unharmed. Zoro thought to himself, 'Oh, crap.' He was then horribly killed."

Do you see the point I'm making here? Even if the elemental users are cut into many small pieces, they won't be hurt. The logia are known as the most powerful devil fruits for a reason...
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Old 2006-02-04, 16:45   Link #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Illuyankas
You are repeating yourself without thinking. Have an example...

"Zoro faced off against (insert elemental enemy here), listening to the breath of his enemy. Timing it perfectly, he swung, and cut him cleanly in two. As he watched, the two halves turned into (element his opponent uses) and reformed, to show (whoever) standing there, completely unharmed. Zoro thought to himself, 'Oh, crap.' He was then horribly killed."

Do you see the point I'm making here? Even if the elemental users are cut into many small pieces, they won't be hurt. The logia are known as the most powerful devil fruits for a reason...
Are you listening to what I am saying, Zoro already cut Ener in half with a normal swing of his sword which cut Ener in half and Ener was able to reform back to solid. If Zoro had used the breath technique Ener would have been cut in his lighting form. The Breath Allows you to cut "ALL Things." Ener would be physically harmed even in his lighting form.

"In this world we live in, there are swordsman who can cut nothing." However those same swordsman can cut steel or anything else they wish." "all with the same katana."

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2006-02-04 at 16:57.
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Old 2006-02-04, 17:00   Link #119
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Are you listening to what I am saying, Zoro already cut Ener in half with a normal swing of his sword which cut Ener in half and Ener was able to reform back to solid. If Zoro had used the breath technique Ener would have been cut in his lighting form. The Breath Allows you to cut "ALL Things." Ener would be physically harmed even in his lighting form.
Then why didn't he? You seem to keep overlooking that Zoro clearly didn't seem to suggest that he could use the breath to cut Enel and instead was focused on getting to the seastone. So it remains that what you are still offering is still that of speculation with not much proof at all to support it.
Quote:
"In this world we live in, there are swordsman who can cut nothing." However those same swordsman can cut steel or anything else they wish." "all with the same katana."
I'm sorry but the quote ends at steel. Zoro's past sensei didn't add in a "or anything else they wish."
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Old 2006-02-04, 17:05   Link #120
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Originally Posted by neodrag38
Then why didn't he? You seem to keep overlooking that Zoro clearly didn't seem to suggest that he could use the breath to cut Enel and instead was focused on getting to the seastone. So it remains that what you are still offering is still that of speculation with not much proof at all to support it.

I'm sorry but the quote ends at steel. Zoro's past sensei didn't add in a "or anything else they wish."
In Episode 120 Zoro Mentions that he does not know how to do the technique properly. He was in a different state of mind when he used the technique.

No the quote does not end at steel you Neodrag need to rewatch the episode and reread the manga then come talk to me with some facts instead of your own opinions.
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