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Old 2006-02-06, 00:38   Link #161
neodrag38
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The first sentence of yours is something you need to say to yourself since you are the only one making assumptions as if their were absolute with there being no possibility of them being wrong. And it remains that you don't simply take a weird thing existing in One Piece like the effects of a devil fruit and expand to meaning that water doesn't exist as a liquid much less that a liquid doesn't get cut in a logical sense.

So would you please go into some analytical detail into how exactly would even the scenario of cutting lightning matter when it exist in a non-physical form that can be seperated into more chunks and pieces by will more than you would have with a sword, and that is even if you can actually cut lightning to begin with in a sense.
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Old 2006-02-06, 01:57   Link #162
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Then I will tell you Neodrag. Just because lighting is not a physical form it still can be cut if the swordsman has the raw talent needed to execute this task. When I speak of raw talent, it is based off Speed, Strength and Agility. Swordsman have to train their bodies Physically in order to be effective with a sword. Mihawk said it himself "A Sword with power alone is not powerful." Mihawk uses his quickness and the power of the thrust from the "Black Sword" to pierce any object with his extended forearm. Due to the high speed at which Mihawk moves the force can easily cut through any foe.

Why would Mihawk need anything to cut lightning, besides skill? In the OPverse, you don't need Devil Fruit to do supernatural stuff, pure skill works fine as well. Look at Zoro stated by his sensei He can cuts through whatever he wants, "but his sword passes straight through whatever he doesn't want to cut. It's as impossible as cutting lightning. Yet he does it without any Devil Fruit Power.

And Mihawk > Zoro.

Mihawk cutting lightning without Devil Fruit Power, isn't "impossible" at all. Pure skill at high speeds.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2006-02-06 at 02:48.
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Old 2006-02-06, 04:23   Link #163
MihawkXGP
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Then I will tell you Neodrag. Just because lighting is not a physical form it still can be cut if the swordsman has the raw talent needed to execute this task. When I speak of raw talent, it is based off Speed, Strength and Agility. Swordsman have to train their bodies Physically in order to be effective with a sword. Mihawk said it himself "A Sword with power alone is not powerful." Mihawk uses his quickness and the power of the thrust from the "Black Sword" to pierce any object with his extended forearm. Due to the high speed at which Mihawk moves the force can easily cut through any foe.

Why would Mihawk need anything to cut lightning, besides skill? In the OPverse, you don't need Devil Fruit to do supernatural stuff, pure skill works fine as well. Look at Zoro stated by his sensei He can cuts through whatever he wants, "but his sword passes straight through whatever he doesn't want to cut. It's as impossible as cutting lightning. Yet he does it without any Devil Fruit Power.

And Mihawk > Zoro.

Mihawk cutting lightning without Devil Fruit Power, isn't "impossible" at all. Pure skill at high speeds.
I think you fail to understand, that in OP not all Common sense and logic is thrown out.
The Basic concepts of common sense remain. Basic common sense, tells us that a Sword which is a metallic object, cannot cut through a non-physical object like a flow of moving Electrons, which is what lighting is.
No matter how fast Mihawk is, nothing can make you faster then Lighting. That is a given fact.

And using Naruto to justify your point doesn't holdmuch to this arguement, since they are totally differant worlds.
Look,i'm sure if you asked Oda, this question, he would tell you the same.

If Mihawk shows something in the future to suggest he could have beaten Enel, then maybe we can reconsider this matter. And that goes for Shanks as well.
ANd i highly doubt a swordsman trains, himself to be able to beat just 1 Man who is made of Lighting.

Basic common sense it is all really.
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Old 2006-02-06, 13:45   Link #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MihawkXGP
I think you fail to understand, that in OP not all Common sense and logic is thrown out.
The Basic concepts of common sense remain. Basic common sense, tells us that a Sword which is a metallic object, cannot cut through a non-physical object like a flow of moving Electrons, which is what lighting is.
No matter how fast Mihawk is, nothing can make you faster then Lighting. That is a given fact.

And using Naruto to justify your point doesn't holdmuch to this arguement, since they are totally differant worlds.
Look,i'm sure if you asked Oda, this question, he would tell you the same.

If Mihawk shows something in the future to suggest he could have beaten Enel, then maybe we can reconsider this matter. And that goes for Shanks as well.
ANd i highly doubt a swordsman trains, himself to be able to beat just 1 Man who is made of Lighting.

Basic common sense it is all really.
No this is where you are wrong, Logic and common sense is thrown out of the window. Not everything in One Piece has to do with logic and common sense people turn into fire, Smoke, you got techniques where hands can come out from any place. Hell look at Blueno is door door fruit allows him to open doors to the atmosphere. This is the anime world most common sense and logic is thrown out the window.

I will say it once again you do not need a devil fruit to have supernatural power. Speed, Strength, and Endurance alone can be enough. Hell look at the CP9 normal humans who are so fast that they can disappear, kick the air and float, create slicing wind with kicks. Luffy now with his new Gear Technique has evolved all of his physical abilities speed, strenght etc. Luffy is so fast now you can't even see his new Jet attacks. Luffy now will pound Ener into the ground it will be no contest. Luffy said that he needs to become stronger for more powerful guys ahead in the seas. For example Mihawk, Aokiji, Shanks, and Shichibukai. Oda is preparing Luffy for more insanely strong characters down the line.

It is not a matter of a sword cutting lighting just because it is made of steel, it is a matter of the Talent of the swordsman. Pure skill is all Mihawk needs. He can have the power to cut anything it is a matter of pure skill, no devil fruit is needed to do supernatural things just pure skill. Zoro can basically cut whatever he wants you guys keep saying it is impossible to cut lighting because it is not in a physical form. That's what Zoro's Sensei was talking about saying Sensei: "You see, there are swordsmen in this world that can cut NOTHING". Lighting is Nothing which means he can cut everything. Mihawk is on a higher level than Zoro it is clear to me Mihawk can cut it easily.

Oh and lighting is not faster than the speed of light it is slower.

Last edited by Phenomenal; 2006-02-06 at 14:49.
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Old 2006-02-06, 14:25   Link #165
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You said Kakashi could, earlier in the thread.
EDIT: Even if you remove the question, you still said it.
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Old 2006-02-06, 15:13   Link #166
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Phenomonal:
You don't get it, not all common sense is thrown out.
Everything has some rule of common sense.

Your statements of Luffy pounding Enel into the ground, just because of his new ability, has no basis at all.


I mean look, you saw what happenned in Episode 173, when Enel got Cut in half.
Nothing happenned to him. That was something totally different which cut him. He just sat there and let him.

A sword would do the same.
He would be cut in half or whatever, but he would reform.

Lighting is about as fast as you'll get. No human being can move faster then that, in OP.

You saw how Enel demonstrating this Uber speed of his.
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Old 2006-02-06, 17:33   Link #167
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No MihawkXGP, Luffy with his New ability would smash Ener into the ground in an instant. Ener could not handle Luffy back then in Skypiea. Ener had to get rid of him by merging him with a golden ball. Luffy is much more powerful than he was in Skypiea. Last time I checked people with so much speed that can vanish in an instant and kick the air so they can float is not common sense or logical. Luffy will smash Ener with his new "Gear".

Listen Mihawk has supernatural abilities with a sword. Raw talent (speed, strength, endurance) did you see how he cut Don Krieg's Ship? His cuts were so fast they were unseen, He wasn't even close to the boat, Mihawk is a Monster. Luffy now in his Gear can not defeat Mihawk. I will say it again because it has already been said by the creator of One Piece himself. "You see, there are swordsmen in this world that can cut NOTHING".
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Old 2006-02-06, 17:49   Link #168
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And maybe Enel for all we know has learned to do something new with ability? But if you simply are refering to Luffy as he is now being superior to Enel during the Skypiea arc then I guess I agree.

B you seem to be exaggerating that what is still simply the existence of unusual skills, among others, to mean that logic that has been in existence since human existence doesn't exist at all in One Piece. It remains that it never has been shown that anyone can actually cut a non-physical substance like that of water much less lightning that clearly exist in multiple parts.

And it should be clear that swordsmanship is a mix of both body and mind, not just simply raw strength. To say that Mihawk's swordsmanship is at its level simply in terms of just because of his physical body is pretty much an insult overall. I would think that Zoro's usage of the breath against Mr.1 would have made clear that swordsmanship consist of factors beyond simply that of how fast you swing a sword. And raw talent in definition refers to being naturally good at doing something. So it should be clear that Mihawk's abilities reflect more than just simply raw talent since of course Mihawk should have past experience.

And you need to remember that the nothing statement refers to being able to make your sword carry your will in that it doesn't cut something when you swing it at an object like Zoro did to that tree branch.

It remains that when a logia user is in their elemental form they consist of that element and even being able to cut this element doesn't exactly seem to matter much at the current time when they just simply reform themselves back together. Especially when the number of individuals that know of the breath numbers more than that of one person. You would think that if things were as simply as you claim them to be that logia users wouldn't be so feared much less that the logia user of blue sea at least up to Aokiji level would have been killed off already.

So please keep in mind that opinion is simply an opinion. That you aren't infallible nor do I claim that my opinion to be absolute fact.
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Old 2006-02-06, 17:57   Link #169
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I understand what you are saying Neodrag38, of course Mihawk has the intelligence of Swordsmanship because of his past experiences. He also had to have some Experience with Logia users or hell he would not be considered Shichibukai. Mihawk is not only the Strongest Swordsman in the world but he is one of the Strongest in the World Of One Piece.

Mihawk alone is a Monster who can do the impossible!.
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Old 2006-02-06, 18:03   Link #170
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Except that the number of logia users are quite low. And that you don't need to be able to take out logia users to be a Shikibuchai. Simply being a well known pirate with an incredibly high bounty much less being seen as a threat by the world government is all that seems to matter to the Elders. So whether or not Mihawk has ever had the chance much less cared enough to face against logia users is questionable. Including when for so long it was failed to be mentioned that he has taken out logia users. But again I'm not claiming to be infallible.

And when I was refering to the mind of a swordsman that too would consist of different facets in terms of experience, personality, etc. The things needed to culminate that interacts with the body to be able to survive such a path. Wouldn't be surprised if we were given a flashback in a future chap of One Piece where Mihawk was faced with a defeat like Zoro was dealt when Mihawk himself defeated Zoro.

And it remains that Mihawk isn't the only swordsman in existance that can cut a ship in half.
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Old 2006-02-06, 18:11   Link #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Except that the number of logia users are quite low. And that you don't need to be able to take out logia users to be a Shikibuchai. Simply being a well known pirate with an incredibly high bounty much less being seen as a threat by the world government is all that seems to matter to the Elders. So whether or not Mihawk has ever had the chance much less cared enough to face against logia users is questionable. Including when for so long it was failed to be mentioned that he has taken out logia users. But again I'm not claiming to be infallible.

And it remains that Mihawk isn't the only swordsman in existance that can cut a ship in half.
Mihawk is a monster the man said "a sword with power alone is not powerful." It is obvious Mihawk can take on any foe in One Piece he truly is one of the strongest.

The statement to cut nothing was saying that a swordsman can cut whatever he wants or not to cut whatever he wants as shown by not cutting the tree but then Zoro continued by cutting the Rock very easily. "everything has a breath as if it was alive".

Yeah the only Swordsman that is even close to Mihawk is Shanks himself. Shanks rivaled Mihawk.
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Old 2006-02-06, 18:18   Link #172
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Mihawk is a monster the man said "a sword with power alone is not powerful." It is obvious Mihawk can take on any foe in One Piece he truly is one of the strongest.
It's a given that there should at least be some swordsman right below in ability. So even to say that he can take on any foe and win in One Piece would be taking it a bit far.
Quote:
The statement to cut nothing was saying that a swordsman can cut whatever he wants as shown by not cutting the tree but then Zoro continued by cutting the Rock very easily. "everything has a breath as if it was alive".
And cutting lightning is to cut something that already was fragmented to begin with.
Quote:
Yeah the only Swordsman that is even close to Mihawk is Shanks himself. Shanks rivaled Mihawk.
Like I put above there is no guarantee that there aren't any swordsman at least close to that of Mihawk though they are below him. We still haven't been given a chance to see all of the fighters in One Piece nor was it ever said that Mihawk only had Zoro and Shanks to think of facing in the future. Being the strongest swordsman isn't a permenant position nor does it mean that there isn't any besides Shanks that would give him trouble to defeat. It definently makes things alot more interesting in terms of Zoro actually having competition that may beat him to his goal or at least try to get in the way of it.
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Old 2006-02-06, 18:28   Link #173
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All Iam saying in the world of One Piece since it was stated that swordsman can cut what they want to cut. Hell why is Shanks so feared even Whitebeard acknowledges this man, and I doubt Whitebeard would sit and drink with anyone. Shanks must have unbelievable skill as a swordsman as well.

Well it stands as of now Mihawk is the strongest Swordsman. I am guessing he is the second most powerful behind Whitebeard. Mihawk asked Zoro "why do you seek the Ultimate Power?" Mihawk also said to Luffy about becoming Pirate King That will never happen. It is a impossible road. "Even more than to surpass me." Maybe he knows what it takes to become one after saying that quote. Still even after that quote it is still a compliment to his strength. (speculation of course)
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Old 2006-02-06, 18:47   Link #174
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
All Iam saying in the world of One Piece since it was stated that swordsman can cut what they want to cut. Hell why is Shanks so feared even Whitebeard acknowledges this man, and I doubt Whitebeard would sit and drink with anyone. Shanks must have unbelievable skill as a swordsman as well.
Except that you pretty much are contradicting what you are saying when you say there are swordsman that can cut anything they want since it simply leads to a paradox when two such swordsmen face off. And it still wasn't said that everything in existance and non-existance within space time is cutable. Unless you actually want One Piece to become insanely DBZish in that a swordsman in slice the entire world in half.

And I would doubt that Shanks is so well known simply for swordsmanship. It's clear that he would be well respected for reasons that we still haven't been fully given. And it remains that even though Whitebeard is willing to meet him that Whitebeard still refers to Shanks in a manor that isn't exactly respectful. I definently can tell that Shanks is screwed if he doesn't bring any booze when he comes along.
Quote:
Well it stands as of now Mihawk is the strongest Swordsman. I am guessing he is the second most powerful behind Whitebeard. Mihawk asked Zoro "why do you seek the Ultimate Power?" Mihawk also said to Luffy about becoming Pirate King That will never happen. It is a impossible road. "Even more than to surpass me." Maybe he knows what it takes to become one after saying that quote. Still even after that quote it is still a compliment to his strength. (speculation of course)
Not much of a good guess when you have the existence of the three supreme vice admirals, Sengoku, all of Whitebeard's strongest crewmates that we haven't been shown in all, the Elders as a possibility, unshown members of the Shikibuchai, etc.

I don't remember Mihawk telling Luffy that it couldn't happen. Just simply that the road to trying to become the pirate king is beyond that of simply wanting to be the strongest swordsman in the world. Mihawk does stand as the strongest swordsman at the current moment but who knows what might happen in the future, besides Oda of course.
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Old 2006-02-06, 19:04   Link #175
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No one wants this to become like DBZ and slice the world in half I am simply talking about elements. When you have characters kicking air (non physical form) just so they can float says logic is thrown out. So why can't a swordsman cut lighting or cut water so it could vaporize. Everything in the world of One Piece is possible. It is just simply stated by Oda himself that swordsman have the ability to cut what they want.

A Pirate is feared because of his individual power and status, rivaling the best swordsman in the world pretty much explains how powerful he is. Not to mention the famous crewmates Shanks has under his control. Shanks has charisma and power which gives him the respect from other characters especially from Whitebeard himself. Don't worry Shanks already said that he was bringing his "best rum."

Mihawk in my opinion is the Strongest Shichibukai, as everyone was astounded to see someone of his stature and power in the government meeting. Even Sengoku himself was shocked. Doflamingo had to smile at that one. that alone shows the effect he has.
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Old 2006-02-06, 19:17   Link #176
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
No one wants this to become like DBZ and slice the world in half I am simply talking about elements. When you have characters kicking air (non physical form) just so they can float says logic is thrown out. So why can't a swordsman cut lighting or cut water so it could vaporize. Everything in the world of One Piece is possible. It is just simply stated by Oda himself that swordsman have the ability to cut what they want.
And thus again every time you claim that a swordsman can cut whatever he wants you are still saying that he can cut the world in the half, literally. And also that I'm not exactly arguing simply on it being impossible to cut lightning but that cutting lightning shouldn't really do anything.
Quote:
A Pirate is feared because of his individual power and status, rivaling the best swordsman in the world pretty much explains how powerful he is. Not to mention the famous crewmates Shanks has under his control. Shanks has charisma and power which gives him the respect from other characters especially from Whitebeard himself. Don't worry Shanks already said that he was bringing his "best rum."
There's that but of course it has to be something else. Including when Shanks is meeting Whitebeard for a reason along with the mystery involved with the past Pirate King and the lost history. And really, you have to admit for a guy whose suppose to be this strong as you suggest losing his arm the way he did doesn't do much for his reputation. Not that I'm trying to diss him though. No hating on Shanks.
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Mihawk in my opinion is the Strongest Shichibukai, as everyone was astounded to see someone of his stature and power in the government meeting. Even Sengoku himself was shocked. Doflamingo had to smile at that one. that alone shows the effect he has.
And it remains that there were other Shikibuchai that of course didn't even care enough to come. Much less that it remains that it seemed they were simply surprised since he rather seems to care more about obliterating a fleet of ships rather than to sit through a meeting. So being surprised that someone actually comes to a meeting is pretty much a normal reaction in terms of pattern of behavior rather than them caring much about his stature. Mihawk still pretty much works for the world government.

But anyway, in short it remains that for all we know that any of the Shikibuchai we haven't seen yet coming this meeting would possibly even get a bigger reaction than Mihawk would. So there is just too many unknown factors in terms of deciding that Mihawk should be the strongest Shikibuchai.
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Old 2006-02-06, 19:31   Link #177
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Neodrag I did not say he can cut the world he can cut whatever he wants in terms of any metal, water, lightining etc, this is not DBZ. Hell anything that gets cut will be hurt even if it is lighting.

Shanks was saving Luffy. Yet that even displays his power even more because of his lost arm. He looked at the Seaking and it ran away. Even with one arm he still is considered one of the most powerful characters in all of One Piece. Loosing his arm only helps his reputaion and makes him stronger.

The Strongest Swordsman in the world is the truth. I doubt any one in the Shichibukai would challenge Mihawk because of his power. Mihawk only showed up because he was interested in the Strawhat pirates who were on the Agenda. He simply did not come just because the government said to come.

you are right though it is too early to tell who is the strongest.
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Old 2006-02-06, 19:39   Link #178
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Originally Posted by The Phenomenol
Neodrag I did not say he can cut the world he can cut whatever he wants in terms of any metal, water, lightining etc, this is not DBZ. Hell anything that gets cut will be hurt even if it is lighting.
That would be like saying you hurt a rock by cutting it in half yet of course all you are doing is creating two rocks. And again you said that a swordsman with the breath can cut anything they wish. Meaning that of course the world exudes a breath and that a swordsman can simply cut the world in half. You are still contradicting yourself.
Quote:
Shanks was saving Luffy. Yet that even displays his power even more because of his lost arm. He looked at the Seaking and it ran away. Even with one arm he still is considered one of the most powerful characters in all of One Piece. Loosing his arm only helps his reputaion and makes him stronger.
Yet he still lost his arm to such a lowly creature. It remains that Shanks is shown to be one of the most well known individuals in all of blue sea. You just happen to equate that to meaning simply just that of a strength. Not that I'm saying that Shanks is definently weak. Though it doesn't seem like Mihawk sees the lost of his arm as a positive in any fashion whatsoever.
Quote:
The Strongest Swordsman in the world is the truth. I doubt any one in the Shichibukai would challenge Mihawk because of his power. Mihawk only showed up because he was interested in the Strawhat pirates who were on the Agenda. He simply did not come just because the government said to come.

you are right though it is too early to tell who is the strongest.
You haven't even seen all of the Shikibuchai much less know more than that of simply two of them in some detail when it comes to at least personality and limits. So it remains that strongest swordsman in the world doesn't mean as much when they are multiple different types of fighting styles much less the unknowns.

And I didn't say anything about Mihawk coming to the meeting because he was ordered to. It remains that it was commented that coming to the meeting isn't really an actual thing that any the Shikibuchai have to take part especially when the ones who decide who becomes a Shikibuchai are the World Government elders.
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Old 2006-02-06, 19:44   Link #179
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Well it still remains that in the world of One piece swordsman can cut anything.

To see who is the strongest behind Whitebeard remains to be seen.
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Old 2006-02-06, 19:49   Link #180
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But then again to be able to cut something doesn't mean to be able to destroy. And that to say that anything can be cut would still be saying that you can slice the world in half. Oh heck, might as well just say the universe while you are at it.

But I will agree with your second sentence.
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