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Old 2004-09-06, 12:42   Link #221
Nine Devil
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
He has a lot more chakra... He is faster. He is stronger.

What more is there?
And thats it, he would still get owned. He just has raw power. You saw what happened against Kimimaro. He may have 2 3 times more chakra right now still he would get owned by Kimimaro not even need to speak about Kakashi nor Zabuza
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Old 2004-09-06, 12:43   Link #222
Anthriel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
He has a lot more chakra... He is faster. He is stronger.

What more is there?
Whew. I always knew Kyuubi Naruto is overrated, but that's a whole new level of overrating him. Kyuubi Naruto was just a bit faster than Mirror Haku, who was slower than Lee without weights (Sasuke could react to Haku perfectly, he couldn't react to Lee at all), Kyuubi Naruto was repelled by the Kaiten of a Genin, Kyuubi Naruto was utterly owned by Orochimaru.

Then again ... it's probably just me, who thinks the ability to regenerate critical wounds in a flash and repell attacks like Kaiten is cheap and wrong.
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Old 2004-09-06, 12:50   Link #223
UserName
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Originally Posted by Anthriel
Whew. I always knew Kyuubi Naruto is overrated, but that's a whole new level of overrating him. Kyuubi Naruto was just a bit faster than Mirror Haku, who was slower than Lee without weights (Sasuke could react to Haku perfectly, he couldn't react to Lee at all), Kyuubi Naruto was repelled by the Kaiten of a Genin, Kyuubi Naruto was utterly owned by Orochimaru.

Then again ... it's probably just me, who thinks a character who regenerates critical wounds in a flash and repells attacks like Kaiten is cheap and wrong.
He wasn't just a bit faster... First of all he's a lot faster than CS 1 Sasuke. Which means he is a lot faster than Lee without his weights. And Haku couldn't even move before he was attacked.

Strength wise, well he basically can't be hurt, he punched through something that not even Zabuza could break.

Also you are stupid. I siad berserk Naruto as in the Haku fight or as in the current fight. Where he completely loses himself as in he is partly Kyuubi. As in not any other moment as he gone berserk like that aside from those two.

Also I'd like to see anything get past the kaiten.

Are you implying that all the time Naruto gets Kyuubi chakra he is the same? As in the Haku kyuubi which was the high point is as strong as the Oro kyuubi which was the lowest of the low? If you are you are stupid.
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Old 2004-09-06, 13:47   Link #224
CyberPunk
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wtf? alot faster than sasuke level 1? great speculation there. you have no idea what the difference is yet. haku was still bouncing around the room and even attempted to attack naruto. he missed and naruto grabbed him as he tried to escape back into the mirrors. but that's all besides the point, since haku is long gone and the others have improved significantly.

punched through something even zabuza couldn't break? where the fuck do you get this stuff? it appears that those 7 mist guys are some of the most physically strong ninjas in the series. you saw the way kisame was winning the duel with asuma while only using near the very tip of his sword? he wasn't in a position of superior leverage, yet still was easily overpowering him with one hand while asuma was using both!

i agree with anthriel, naruto's powers are getting pretty ridiculous.
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Old 2004-09-06, 13:57   Link #225
missing_nin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
He wasn't just a bit faster... First of all he's a lot faster than CS 1 Sasuke. Which means he is a lot faster than Lee without his weights. And Haku couldn't even move before he was attacked.

Strength wise, well he basically can't be hurt, he punched through something that not even Zabuza could break.

Also you are stupid. I siad berserk Naruto as in the Haku fight or as in the current fight. Where he completely loses himself as in he is partly Kyuubi. As in not any other moment as he gone berserk like that aside from those two.

Also I'd like to see anything get past the kaiten.

Are you implying that all the time Naruto gets Kyuubi chakra he is the same? As in the Haku kyuubi which was the high point is as strong as the Oro kyuubi which was the lowest of the low? If you are you are stupid.
before you call other people stupid, just tell me where you get the idea of naruto being faster than zabuza/kakashi.Can you back this up? ok, hes fatser than haku/ lee and sasuke cs 1. So?Heck, i believe naruto is faster than sasuke cs2, but is sasuke anywhere near kakashi? No.
i think your not only overestimating naruto, but underestimating kakashi/zabuza as well.
btw we still have to see if naruto can be hurt or not (unless you have chap 230
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Old 2004-09-06, 16:03   Link #226
UserName
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I didn't call anybdoy stupid. But they are stupid if they do think that Kyuubi Naruto in say the Oro scuffle was as strong/fast/chakra as the Haku explosion.

I get the idea that he's faster than them due to the fact that we don't know anyone that is faster than 'it', we know that he is faster than Lee excluding the gates, and Lee's speed was very exceptional, even if he were a chuunin it would most likely be.

Zabuza admitted to not being able to defeat the mirrors, well to defeat the mirrors you can either attack the mirrors itself or the user of it. So I doubt he could break it with his own strength and he is quite a strong jounin, very strong indeed, certianly stronger in power than Kakashi. Now here comes Berserk Naruto bursting through with a simple punch.

So that's where i get power and speed surpassing that of the 2 I mentioned.

Power, certainly, I doubt he can compare to someone say like Gai, but I do think he is stronger power wise than Kakashi, whose power is even less than that of Zabuza and Azuma(or whatever Shika's teacher is called).

The speed is iffy, but then again I won't consider Kakashi fast among the jounins. maybe average or a bit above average. I'm not totally sure about his speed, but it's certianly faster than anything Curse Seal Level 2 Sasuke can muster.
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Old 2004-09-06, 16:15   Link #227
Anthriel
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I didn't call anybdoy stupid. But they are stupid if they do think that Kyuubi Naruto in say the Oro scuffle was as strong/fast/chakra as the Haku explosion.
Good, I neer said that, therefore I am not stupid. Anyway, my point was, Kyuubi Naruto got crushed easily before. True, Naruto was not as strong at that time, but it did show he is not invincible. (Though he is often portrayed as invincible ... that's why I hope Sasuke crushes him as much as possible. It get's boring when fights are just: "Oh! Naruto fights an evil and extremely powerful ninja, and gets beaten up! ... oh well, I guess he will just use Kyuubi and beat the shit out of his opponent. *shrug*)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
Zabuza admitted to not being able to defeat the mirrors, well to defeat the mirrors you can either attack the mirrors itself or the user of it. So I doubt he could break it with his own strength and he is quite a strong jounin, very strong indeed, certianly stronger in power than Kakashi. Now here comes Berserk Naruto bursting through with a simple punch.
Zabuza said neither he nor Kakashi could defeat the move. Sasuke could, and he was pretty much a waaaaaay weaker Kakashi at that time. Therefore, Zabuza's statement was false, idiotic and worthless.

Quote:
The speed is iffy, but then again I won't consider Kakashi fast among the jounins. maybe average or a bit above average. I'm not totally sure about his speed, but it's certianly faster than anything Curse Seal Level 2 Sasuke can muster.
Oh, so you can see the future? Or you are a personal friend of Kishimoto? I didn't see CS 2 Sasuke so far ...
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Old 2004-09-06, 16:24   Link #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
I didn't call anybdoy stupid. But they are stupid if they do think that Kyuubi Naruto in say the Oro scuffle was as strong/fast/chakra as the Haku explosion.

I get the idea that he's faster than them due to the fact that we don't know anyone that is faster than 'it', we know that he is faster than Lee excluding the gates, and Lee's speed was very exceptional, even if he were a chuunin it would most likely be.

Zabuza admitted to not being able to defeat the mirrors, well to defeat the mirrors you can either attack the mirrors itself or the user of it. So I doubt he could break it with his own strength and he is quite a strong jounin, very strong indeed, certianly stronger in power than Kakashi. Now here comes Berserk Naruto bursting through with a simple punch.

So that's where i get power and speed surpassing that of the 2 I mentioned.

Power, certainly, I doubt he can compare to someone say like Gai, but I do think he is stronger power wise than Kakashi, whose power is even less than that of Zabuza and Azuma(or whatever Shika's teacher is called).

The speed is iffy, but then again I won't consider Kakashi fast among the jounins. maybe average or a bit above average. I'm not totally sure about his speed, but it's certianly faster than anything Curse Seal Level 2 Sasuke can muster.
Even though your logic has the support of actual information, you still can't possibly believe that Naruto in his berserk Kyubi mode is faster than that of Kakashi or Zabuza since Naruto clearly is still just genin, though he deserves to be a chuunin, while these two individuals are Jounin.

Not really sure about the whole part of power but it has already been said that power does not make up for a lack of experience and will power, thus there's the clear difference between Kakashi and Naruto.

In terms of power and speed, Naruto definantly outranks Sasuke right now including the fact that Sasuke fighting Naruto only leads to an increase in Naruto's physical abilities and amount of existing chakra during this battle since Naruto is not the type of give up based on his will and that since he will constantly regenerate any injury, which is shown by the last chapter's occurence of Naruto healing in an instant not only simply skin and muscle tissue but also the missing parts of his lung on the right side of his body, and the fact that Kyubi will also continue to give Naruto more and more chakra as possible to stave off any possible death to his container and thus himself so there's no way to take down Naruto at this point unless you are of a higher level experience wise by significant degree. This is my own opinion of course.
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Old 2004-09-06, 16:27   Link #229
Tsukiyomi_Amaterasu
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One EXTREMELY unlikely, albeit equalling interesting scenario, would be if the Level 2 Curse Seal, instead of aiding the Sharingan, instead overloaded it with chakra or something similar, causing Sasuke to either lose the Sharingan, or go blind. Then he would be worthless to Orochimaru, and thus have no choice but to go back to Konoha. This would also allow Kishimoto to have someone make some long-winded speech about how one couldn't rely on crutches like the Sharingan and curse seals for power anyone, and that true strength came from hard work and training. It would also make Sasuke even more angst-y, something which some people would enjoy, and many, many others would hate... with a passion..
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Old 2004-09-06, 16:28   Link #230
Don Roberto
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
Good, I neer said that, therefore I am not stupid. Anyway, my point was, Kyuubi Naruto got crushed easily before.
Kyubi Naruto and Beserk Naruto are different. Even if we count Kyuubi Naruto it makes his losses Oro (sannin) and Kimimaro (physically indestuctable). Both are stronger than Sasuke, so they can't really be used at a beacon for this fight.

Quote:
Zabuza said neither he nor Kakashi could defeat the move. Sasuke could, and he was pretty much a waaaaaay weaker Kakashi at that time. Therefore, Zabuza's statement was false, idiotic and worthless.
Dodging the needles doesn't mean he defeated the technique. Zabuza and Kakashi could've been thinking "I could dodge the needles, but the frquency at which they are thrown I'm bound to get hit while in there." I feel as though the technique is defeated if one actually managed to get out of it (which only Beserk Naruto has done).

Quote:
Oh, so you can see the future? Or you are a personal friend of Kishimoto? I didn't see CS 2 Sasuke so far ...
No, but it seems safe to say tha Naruto has the advantage. The only technique Sasuke seems to have that could do any damage against Naruto is Chidori, and we have seen what happens when Sasuke uses Chidori too much, since its obvious that any Katon justus could be dispelled with pure chakra.
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Old 2004-09-06, 16:29   Link #231
neodrag38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsukiyomi_Amaterasu
One EXTREMELY unlikely, albeit equalling interesting scenario, would be if the Level 2 Curse Seal, instead of aiding the Sharingan, instead overloaded it with chakra or something similar, causing Sasuke to either lose the Sharingan, or go blind. Then he would be worthless to Orochimaru, and thus have no choice but to go back to Konoha. This would also allow Kishimoto to have someone make some long-winded speech about how one couldn't rely on crutches like the Sharingan and curse seals for power anyone, and that true strength came from hard work and training. It would also make Sasuke even more angst-y, something which some people would enjoy, and many, many others would hate... with a passion..
An interesting scenario, but I would be prepared to be flamed alittle.
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Old 2004-09-06, 18:23   Link #232
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Awwwww. that made me almost go into tears. they're so alike that it is almost as if they're mirror images. Like Sasuke is the evil-ish half and Naruto is the good-ish half. WHERE THE HELL IS KAKASHI ALREADY!!!!
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Old 2004-09-06, 18:49   Link #233
Prince of Chronics
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no... I would rather not have Kakashi arrive until Naruto and Sasuke's death match is over... it would ruin this perfect opportunity for some solid action...
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Old 2004-09-06, 21:51   Link #234
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I think that it'll get to some major league dramatic part like one of them is an inch away from killing the other and Kakashi shows up. Just like last time
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Old 2004-09-06, 22:12   Link #235
Veritas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
I didn't call anybdoy stupid.
Dude, you totally did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UserName
Also you are stupid. I siad berserk Naruto as in the Haku fight or as in the current fight. Where he completely loses himself as in he is partly Kyuubi. As in not any other moment as he gone berserk like that aside from those two.
Okay, this argument has been largely incomprehensible for a long time. Maybe it's because I'm getting in on the middle of it.

About future chapters, I hope the fight goes uniterrupted until it's conclusion. Kakashi can catch up later.
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Old 2004-09-06, 22:17   Link #236
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I have a feeling if Kakashi catchs up the match won't end there and then... Naruto and Sasuke arn't the weak Genin they were before, especially now Sasuke is faster and stronger and smart with 3 dot sharingan... and naruto has more chakra oozing out of him than both of them combined x2.
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Old 2004-09-06, 22:18   Link #237
ChronoReverse
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Anyone else notice how most of the conversation takes place sideways? Both of them have much much better chakra control now.
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Old 2004-09-07, 00:11   Link #238
Zek
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When you guys are trying to make distinctions between "Berserk Naruto" and "Kyuubified Naruto" or whatever else you want to call the various stages, remember to keep one thing in mind... They are all the same thing, just to varying degrees. When Naruto's appearance becomes fox-like, he's losing himself to Kyuubi's chakra to some degree and drawing the power subconciously. The weak end of the extreme is when his eyes briefly change, like when he attempted the Rasengan against Tsunade. The other extreme is what he used against Sasuke last chapter. The only difference with the Haku and Sasuke fights is that he released so much chakra that it materialized as Kyuubi, but that doesn't mean anything except to indicate just how much it is. You could also say that this happened in the fight against Neji as well, since the chakra took the shape of Kyuubi's tails; it seems that's just what the chakra does when there's so much of it. Either he's using a lot of power or only a little, but he's going berserk to some extent regardless.
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Old 2004-09-07, 10:18   Link #239
nitteo
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this arc is gonna end in chapter 359.
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Old 2004-09-07, 11:41   Link #240
Hideki Keiji
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neodrag38
Even though your logic has the support of actual information, you still can't possibly believe that Naruto in his berserk Kyubi mode is faster than that of Kakashi or Zabuza since Naruto clearly is still just genin, though he deserves to be a chuunin, while these two individuals are Jounin.
The only way we can get a good picture of two people's comparative abilities, is for the two of them to fight, this is because, IMO, our perceptions of a character's strength is skewed depending on who they're fighting. For example, Kakashi doesn't appear to be that fast during his fight with Zabusa, however we can't judge his speed from what we can see because he seems slower than Lee in that fight. In other cases Kakashi seems very fast.

Because of this, the (somewhat questionable)character data book can be used to get a somewhat more clear picture of how characters compare. Using this book, Lee is as fast as Kakashi. If Lee is as fast as Kakashi, then Sasuke is as fast as Kakashi. And since Sasuke can't react to to Naruto's speed when he draws on that much of the Kyuubi's chakra, then this would implicate that Naruto is also faster than Kakashi. According to the character book, there is not that much of a difference in strength and speed between genin and jounin.

Of course, I'm personally not convinced that the character book is accurate, but there is not really much else to go by.
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