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Old 2006-01-09, 20:22   Link #81
MrProphet
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Otaku buy into magical girls. Otaku buy into moe. Otaku buy into T&A and ecchi. Into stuff like KonoMini, Mahoromatic or Goshujinsama, and other crap that Hiroyuki Yamaga insists on churning out these days...

Otaku don't buy into black and white anime. There is not "otaku value" in that other than to point out that, wow, they've already done that 17 years ago when most of the today's otaku weren't even watching anime, so they wouldn't give a damn.

A homage is only appropriate when when it doesn't mess with the integrity of the show into which homage is inserted. Like Nono humming the original Gunbuster theme in ep. 3 (I think it was Nono). A little bit that sort of gives a cheer to those "in the know", not something that sceams "OMG, LOOK, WE ARE PAYING HOMAGE HERE!"

Making an episode of Diebuster black and white does not make any sense, because:

a) It's not homage, it's messing up a whole episode for no apparent good reason.

b) Nobody will care, since most of the buying crowd weren't buying the original Gunbuster OVA's when they came out.
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Old 2006-01-09, 21:49   Link #82
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Uhhh, you obviously haven't included mecha otaku then, which is a distinct subcategory of its own.

In any case, there are all sorts of theories as to WHY the last episode of the original Gunbuster was black & white - ranging from budget problems to "done for dramatic effect". This is the first time I've heard of anyone claiming it was to appeal to otaku.

Having said that, I agree with you in that the last episode won't be in B&W - they are trying to recreate the SPIRIT of the original show, and they have done so in far superior ways than a blatant, "OMG LAST EP OF FIRST SERIES WAS B&W, THIS ONE HAS TO BE TOO!"
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Old 2006-01-09, 22:38   Link #83
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First of all, black and white paints are not any cheaper than colour paints, as such no money is saved. Further more, JP DVD releases have shown that the entire episode is drawn in colour first before being grey-scaled.

Who's stupid idea was it to suggest black and white anime is cheaper to make anyway? Anyone? It doesn't make any sense!

By the way, another hidden reference to the old TWN was the Gunbuster crest symbol, appearing both in Nono's eyes when she first reactivated her abilities, and the way the remote buster-army lined up in formation behind her.
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Old 2006-01-09, 22:57   Link #84
W-General
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As much as I love Gunbuster and Diebuster, making episode 6 of Diebuster black and white without any purpose is pointless.

Homage for the sake of homage is stupid.

Episode 6 of the original Gunbuster was made in black and white was to give me a historical record feel, make it feel like something that was from a long time ago, in fact, 12K years! And in the end when Gunbuster returned to 'present time' and the screens turns to color again, WOW, BAM, the impact settles in, overwhelming emotions and happiness.


If there isn't a similar purpose for Diebuster episode 6 to do that, I'd just think it's stupid. But I know that Gainax is smarter than that.


Gainax might have become very 'commercialized' since Eva, but I know they can still do it when they want to. I think they are still capable of recapturing what makes the original Gunbuster such a godly anime.


Also, apart from using Japanese numbering and French numbering, another distinction was that Nono said something about "becoming a true Top" when she was kicking butt, instead of Topless. So what's the deal with Top and Topless. Is Topless, like, fake Top? Mysteries mysteries....

Last edited by W-General; 2006-01-10 at 02:26.
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Old 2006-01-10, 03:21   Link #85
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by W-General
Also, apart from using Japanese numbering and French numbering, another distinction was that Nono said something about "becoming a true Top" when she was kicking butt, instead of Topless. So what's the deal with Top and Topless. Is Topless, like, fake Top? Mysteries mysteries....
Going a bit out on a limb, I think BM7 was built around the time of the Black Hole Bomb project. Ie, the people at the time didn't expect the BHB to wipe out all of the space monsters, so they still needed more weapons. Maybe Kazumi was even behind it, taking over from "coach", or maybe it was within a few decades of that time. If you consider how quickly space-ship technology was advancing at the time, it doesn't seem impossible. I wonder what "generation" BM3 was considered to be?

So anyway, maybe BM7 had an accident, or was frozen deliberately or something... and thousands of years later is re-activated with a few gliches. Or whatever.

I wouldn't be surprised if the "space aliens" until ep 4 had been earth-based technology - ie some scientists decided to do "use poison to fight poison" and created self-replicating "monsters" to fight the real ones over the whole galaxy - but then, over 1000s of years, they got a bit warped. Maybe a lot of people on earth forgot about them. Then more recently, the earth released monsters came back (maybe as a result of BM7 awakening or maybe Topless in general), caused problems, people started remembering about the "space monsters", and the BM series of weapons was revived?

So what's Die Buster? Maybe an experimental multi-pilot BM combining BM7 and Topless? Maybe it was predicted Topless would develop eventually, around the time BM7 was built?
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Old 2006-01-10, 09:42   Link #86
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Ya, that was what I was thinking. I think BM7 is a direct descendent of the original BM1,2,3 series.

It's also interesting to see that BM7 is actually a sentinent Buster Machine, with all the "determination" and "hard-working attitude" that we saw in Noriko in the original Gunbuster. Perhaps the AI is programmed to behave like Noriko? Perhaps that's what "Nonoriri" means?


Man, I need episode 5. Actually, give me episode 6 too
Haha I can't wait until they come out.
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Old 2006-01-10, 10:07   Link #87
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anyone noticed ''The Titan Variable Gravity Well'' is same type as the one that appeared in original Top wo Nerae ep4?

Spoiler:

Last edited by ensyak; 2006-01-10 at 10:18.
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Old 2006-01-10, 10:45   Link #88
kari-no-sugata
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Originally Posted by ensyak
anyone noticed ''The Titan Variable Gravity Well'' is same type as the one that appeared in original Top wo Nerae ep4?
Yeah, this was discussed before the wipe.

There's a number of fun homages to the original ep 4, particularly Nono's "rising up with arms folded" apperance with THAT music playing. The one mecha landing on another's hand at the end was interesting - a homage in effect, but reversed. From a character development point of view, Noriko's change was about as cool and dramatic as Nono's, though the context was rather different.
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Old 2006-01-10, 10:59   Link #89
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Quote:
anyone noticed ''The Titan Variable Gravity Well'' is same type as the one that appeared in original Top wo Nerae ep4?
Yes, noticed that. Both times blue lightning was used in the process to destroy it too.

Is there BTW still the possibilty that the "topless alien" is not the real "Gravity Well", and we have not seen it yet? It might still be burried beneath the space alien that survived...

Quote:
Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata
I wouldn't be surprised if the "space aliens" until ep 4 had been earth-based technology - ie some scientists decided to do "use poison to fight poison" and created self-replicating "monsters" to fight the real ones over the whole galaxy - but then, over 1000s of years, they got a bit warped. Maybe a lot of people on earth forgot about them. Then more recently, the earth released monsters came back (maybe as a result of BM7 awakening or maybe Topless in general), caused problems, people started remembering about the "space monsters", and the BM series of weapons was revived?
This is a good idea you have got here, I think. The more friendly aliens might be a mix of machine and alien, like nono is a human and a machine at the same time.
It is probably just me, but when the aliens on Pluto were circling around Nono, I thought they locked a bit like machines.

But I doubt a bit, that they have forgot about it this way. I mean, they gave Noriko and Kazumi a warm welcome after all this time. How can they forget such an important weapon project?
Probably it was an ultra secret weapon project on Mars and something went wrong? Everybody knowing about this was killed. BM7 was lost in the process.
Speculating...
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Old 2006-01-10, 14:21   Link #90
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Is nono a Buster or is it just a Buster "supersuit" that she wears?
That's what i want to know, because besides the Visor, everything else seems like it's a suit that in the "Gunbuster Universe" would actually be quite bulky, if it wasn't for the exotic physical canceller powers of Nono that allows her to intergrate/wear it.

But yeah, i've got a feeling she's a "real" Buster, maybe a direct decendant from the original Busters in the first series?
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Old 2006-01-10, 16:36   Link #91
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
Is nono a Buster or is it just a Buster "supersuit" that she wears?
That's what i want to know, because besides the Visor, everything else seems like it's a suit that in the "Gunbuster Universe" would actually be quite bulky, if it wasn't for the exotic physical canceller powers of Nono that allows her to intergrate/wear it.

But yeah, i've got a feeling she's a "real" Buster, maybe a direct decendant from the original Busters in the first series?
Well, we only saw 3 Buster Machines in TWN One, right?

So there really isn't any reason why Nono, as a Number 7, isn't part of the Buster family. Since she's an android, (and frankly the Buster Machines in Diebuster are nearly androids themselves) it's sort of futile to determine where her flesh ends and weapon begins.

Every Buster Machine is different. The only thing that they have in common is raw power and the ability to ignore most laws of physics. As such Nono fits that description.
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Old 2006-01-10, 17:47   Link #92
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Originally Posted by Bracken33
Is there BTW still the possibilty that the "topless alien" is not the real "Gravity Well", and we have not seen it yet? It might still be burried beneath the space alien that survived...
Considering how that battle ended, it picked the worst hiding place ever.

Spoiler:
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Old 2006-01-10, 22:02   Link #93
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One thing that interests me:


Is Buster Machine #7 built during the 12,000 years while Noriko and Kazumi were away, or after they have returned?

We were never told of what happened during that period, or what happened after they have returned. Was Noriko involved in the development of #7? #7 operates on Noriko's core principles (hard work and determination)...so that might have been possible.



And technically, all the Space Monsters have been destroyed at the end of Gunbuster when they blew the center of galaxy up, so why are they still fighting "Space Monsters" in Diebuster? It is logical to think that they aren't space monsters after all, and there are real and survivingspace monsters hiding somewhere, just like the one we saw in this episode.
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Old 2006-01-11, 07:40   Link #94
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Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
Is nono a Buster or is it just a Buster "supersuit" that she wears?
That's what i want to know, because besides the Visor, everything else seems like it's a suit that in the "Gunbuster Universe" would actually be quite bulky, if it wasn't for the exotic physical canceller powers of Nono that allows her to intergrate/wear it.

But yeah, i've got a feeling she's a "real" Buster, maybe a direct decendant from the original Busters in the first series?
Given that Nono did a "warp" without her "suit", I think it's safe to say her powers are internal (though she seems to have a "civilian mode" too).


As a side-note, if Gainax are doing a "sufficiently advanced science is indistingishable from magic" theme here, Nono just had her "magical girl naked transformation sequence"
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Old 2006-01-11, 13:14   Link #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by W-General
One thing that interests me:


Is Buster Machine #7 built during the 12,000 years while Noriko and Kazumi were away, or after they have returned?

We were never told of what happened during that period, or what happened after they have returned. Was Noriko involved in the development of #7? #7 operates on Noriko's core principles (hard work and determination)...so that might have been possible.



"

And technically, all the Space Monsters have been destroyed at the end of Gunbuster when they blew the center of galaxy up, so why are they still fighting "Space Monsters" in Diebuster? It is logical to think that they aren't space monsters after all, and there are real and survivingspace monsters hiding somewhere, just like the one we saw in this episode.
that's quite easy to answer, as they stated that the "The Titan Variable Gravity Well" was dated to be 10,000yrs old, even if we suppose it was from the Time Noriko and onee-sama (forgot her name) came back, there would still be fair bit of time since the first space war, as they arrived back on earth in the 42-43rd Century, which we assume that there are no more space monster, by the fact that, the earth orbit was ENTIRE CLEAR of any orbital structures which wer apparent in both episode 4 & 5 in the form of the Space Shipyard.

So your saying that in the 42-43rd century they have managed to miss a 10,000yr old space monster, and noriko & .co have travelled though space monster infested, and the red milky way defensive system without notice?

It's a bit hard to think that after Noriko & .co that they still have no Warp travel, as was known in the first episode, and that they were unaware of the "Jupiter Express".

No, in my opinion this is happening somewhere in between the wars in the first episode and when Noriko came back, it's a big gap, and i don't think there is anything more interesting to find out what happened before they reached the peaceful future we see at the end of Gunbuster.

Also best explaination of Nono i've read, is from Maeslin from the Lunar Forum:

Quote:
As far as I can tell, and most of this is plain guessing, the "new" buster machines (say numbers 19 and up) are fairly weak compared to the old ones (1 and 2 forming the original Gunbuster, 3 being Jupiter in a can, the others including Nono "7") and possibly considerably smaller than the original Gunbuster as well. Considering that the original bustermachine had a full-height hatch in the side of its hand and that Nono appears to be roughly as tall as Dix-Neuf's hand is wide, if Dix-Neuf and the original Gunbuster are built on similar proportions, the original would be at least twice (and easily 3 times) as big as Dix-Neuf, not to mention considerably more powerful since it could deal with a high number of space monsters of a type similar to the "variable gravity well".

So, best guess after seeing episode 4 a few times, some time after the "black hole" mission of the original Gunbuster, buster machines 4 to 7 were built over time to oppose the remaining real space monsters. With buster machine 7, which was probably the most thoroughly miniaturized buster machine, was built an entire automated defense task force, the Buster Corps, which were equipped with an AI far less advanced than Nonos, were also far less powerful, but compensated with raw numbers, self-maintenance, self-multiplication, etc. Buster machine 7 was also meant to be the control core ("thinking head") of that defence system but in the possibility that 7 was unavailable, they would fall back to automated, pre-programmed simplistic offensive-defensive behavior and pre-programmed patrol lines (hence the "Jupiter Express" and other "Limited Express" monster swarms). After that system was launched, and maybe after a few more buster machines were built, the technology fell into disuse. "Something" caused the "military" part of 7s AI and memory to lock down completely and she either reverted to a humanish personnality program or was in stasis for God knows how long.

Over that time, the Buster Corps, being totally automated and self-sufficient, were totally forgotten and when the miscelaneous corps unit went haywire and attacked human zones for some reason, people started thinking they were space monsters as well and the construction of new Buster Machines began anew, those based on technologies (?apparently organic?) far different from the old ones and scaled to fight against what was now identified as space monsters (but was nothing more than buster corps drones or sometimes the Space Monster equivalent of a mosquito). The defence drones, programmed as they were, attacked back when they were attacked by the new buster machines (which they couldn't recognize) and the conflict continued up to this episode when 7s military systems finally unlocked and sent some sort of recognition code to the drones.

ALso and totally unrelated, warp technology might also have been forgotten or relegated to near-legend as pretty much no one left the solar system anymore (which was barricaded by Buster Corps drones). This is in part why it was said that Nono's trip would take many weeks. (average radius of Pluto's current orbit from the Sun = 3660 million miles, roughly 5½ hours at light speed... in the Gunbuster universe, the orbit of the outer planets was altered when the shockwave from the black hole bomb struck the solar system, but it can't have changed by more than 50%)

PS. the new "space monsters" (Buster Corps) look about as organic as an iMac, maybe it was a trend when they were originally built and designed, while the "real" space monsters definitely look like gigantic pus-spewing fleshy monstrosities.
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Old 2006-01-11, 14:04   Link #96
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Wow, pretty much quite logical.

Based on hints from the episode, I formed my own theory too, based on Nono's self introduction. As said, by Maeslin, the Buster Corps are human-made and my guess was that the Red Milky Way, the barricade around the Solar System is to block space monsters from outside the Solar System to enter.

I was speculating that mankind, in the 12k years that Noriko and Kazumi disappeared, had expanded outside the Solar System, with warp technology available and perhaps after settling down in systems around the Milky Way, probably with the help of Buster Machines, formed an intergalactic empire.

As the universe is wide, I probably think that there won't just be space monsters from the Milky Way only. Perhaps after settling down in an intergalactic empire, more space monsters from other galaxies came to finish the job, so in a last ditch attempt, the empire could've barricaded the Solar System with the Buster Corps to protect Earth before getting destroyed.

As for Nono's origin, I guess that she might be the only original Buster Machines left and she somehow managed to reach Mars, probably as with Maeslin's reasoning, with her military programming switched off or put on standby mode. I guess the revival of the Titan Gravity Well triggered her sensors and she reactivated her powers.
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Old 2006-01-11, 14:48   Link #97
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You'll notice, that the "space monsters" that formed Nana-go's Buster Corps only appeared when the Twins started digging up the Alien Topless, with lends credibility to the fact that they were indeed man-made, or at least, subservient to the humans.

The must have indeed formed a security perimeter outside the Solar System to prevent things like the Alien Topless from coming, and the ones that the Topless have been fighting against could have just been strays from the main perimeter.

So, when the Alien Topless on Pluto awakened, they were sent to destroy it, but human Topless just misjudged this as a space monster attack on them.
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Old 2006-01-11, 15:44   Link #98
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Probably the answer to all these riddles might be hidden in the way Buster Machines are produced. Who produces them and what makes it so extremely difficult to make one?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Onizuka-GTO
It's a bit hard to think that after Noriko & .co that they still have no Warp travel, as was known in the first episode, and that they were unaware of the "Jupiter Express".

No, in my opinion this is happening somewhere in between the wars in the first episode and when Noriko came back, it's a big gap, and i don't think there is anything more interesting to find out what happened before they reached the peaceful future we see at the end of Gunbuster.
This is really a major problem. In both cases they should not forget, what the "Jupiter Express" is, if they built it.

If those drones are solely man made how can a high tech society with all this data storage capacity ever forget about the "Jupiter express", but not forget about Noriko and Kazumi?
The "Jupiter express", if it is an automated man made defence system, is for sure as important or more important as Kazumi and Noriko.
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Old 2006-01-11, 19:34   Link #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bracken33
Probably the answer to all these riddles might be hidden in the way Buster Machines are produced. Who produces them and what makes it so extremely difficult to make one?



This is really a major problem. In both cases they should not forget, what the "Jupiter Express" is, if they built it.

If those drones are solely man made how can a high tech society with all this data storage capacity ever forget about the "Jupiter express", but not forget about Noriko and Kazumi?
The "Jupiter express", if it is an automated man made defence system, is for sure as important or more important as Kazumi and Noriko.
This is true, but you must understand that, Noriko & .co was a very public known thing, she was already hailed as a hero from the first actual defence of the Solar System.

But Nono on the other hand is the produce of MILLITARY minds, and secrecy is their middle name. No matter how public some things maybe, they will always try to keep it secret.

For example the Stealth Plane, the Triangle one, there NUMEROUS sighting of it was seen far in the 80's, but it was always played off as a UFO, thus Trianglar UFO were only recorded, and only after the public was informed in the 90's was these previous sighting have been concluded as that plane.

Now, consider the buster Corps, why shouldn't the Millitary not play them off as "space monster" to hide them? perhaps they were still at the development, experimental stage, the most crucial stage where only key personal can know the secret. What would happen if something went wrong?What if there was a problem with the "Controller", what if it went missing?
what if they started to attack not only Real "Space monster" but also humans?
Even if they told the public, and they would face huge backlash, and still no way of controlling them.
Maybe that's why they formed the Topless Divesion AGAIN (it was disbanded in the 5th episode) to solve and cover the problem, by eliminating it?

Food for thought.



Edit: one thing i forgot to mention, when those two Buster machine was impaled by those real space monster "needles", if you watch back on Episode 5 of the original Series, you will notice they are the exact same "needles" used to attack the decommissioned Excelion that was sent to self-destructed in the path of the Space monster, when Noriko's Onee-sama faulted in her escort duties, the Excelion is pirced by two of those "Needles" which were also carrying Space Monster "Marine" Troopers.

Those things looked quite big compared to Excelion, but when Gunbuster 1+2 (combined) landed on Excelion, you noticed how it dwarfs the old ship out.
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Old 2006-01-11, 22:06   Link #100
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what was said in Maeslin's quote is similar to what I was thinking, since in alot of eps the "new space monsters" seemed alot like machines ( think bout how the monster in the first episode took off just like a rocket, heck it even detached the first part of the rocket <.<; )

I've been thinking that they were actually man made, though am not sure why they were attacking humans...did they malfunction? Or is it the government/military controlling them and actually ordering them to attack? It could be so they can control the people with fear or just to train the Topless and their new Buster Machines without them knowing anything...we wont know until the next episode I guess =/

Though one thing's for sure, IF the new space monsters where man made, then they were definitely made to fight the old space monsters. That's what I think cuz when the old space monster was revived, the new ones just plain ignored the Buster Machines that were there and attacked it.

Another thing also comes to mind is that it seems that the Buster Machines actually KNOW that they weren't real space monsters...cuz when Lark asked Dix Neuf about the old space monster, it seemed that he answered her that it was a REAL space monster.
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