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Old 2004-09-15, 16:43   Link #1
Deth moad ue
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Kakashi and Sharingan Genjutsu?

In the episodes when he first faced Zabuza and used Sharingan, did Kakashi use some sort of Sharingan Genjutsu, or was Zabuza's mind playing tricks on him (specifically when Zabuza saw a bunshin of himself behind Kakashi)?

Far as I know, only Mange Sharingan is capable of casting genjustu, but Zabuza seems to think that Kakashi's sharingan somehow hypnotized him. It's possible for this to occur, but as far as I knew, only mange sharingan could, so i assumed that Zabuza didn't know the nature/limitations of Kakashi's Sharingan.

Also, at one point, Kakashis Tomoes were all spinning round his pupil. Was this actually happening, or did Zabuza just see that? As far as i've seen, other Sharingan's don't spin, and this was the only time that Kakashi's did.
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Old 2004-09-15, 16:44   Link #2
salamando
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First off, I think you are overanalyzing some things. Second, he could have just kage bunshined one that heng no jutsued Zabusa appearance.
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Old 2004-09-15, 16:47   Link #3
Deth moad ue
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hmm....

Healthy curiosity is all...I think that zabuza imagined it. With kakashi following his seals, I don't think he would've had time to do bunshin AND transform jutsu and still keep up enough to complete the jutsu along with zabuza.

Last edited by Deth moad ue; 2004-09-15 at 16:51. Reason: typo fix
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Old 2004-09-15, 16:49   Link #4
salamando
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Perhaps he was in the genjutsu just as long as Kakashi was? Stabbing someone for 72 hours will tear the stamina of alot of people.
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Old 2004-09-15, 16:51   Link #5
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deth moad ue
Do you think that the amount of Chakra used by the mange sharingan is proportionate to the amount of time Itachi makes the victim think he's being tortured?

For instance, when he got Sasuke after he killed the clan, he forced him to witness the murders for what seemed like twenty four hours...

Do you think that that would burn less chakra than when he forced kakashi to feel like he was being stabbed for seventy two hours?

Personally, I think that the amount of time the person seems to suffer should probably be linked to the amount of chakra used.
funny that you should say that, Hunter posted something similair in the Who Is the Strongest/Best Ninja in their Prime? thread
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Old 2004-09-15, 16:53   Link #6
Deth moad ue
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wow..between the time i realized that I screwed up and posted what was to be a new topic inside of this one, two replies to it....I read the prime post earlier in the day, so the hunter one must've come after..lemme go check....

THx
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Old 2004-09-15, 17:04   Link #7
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Kakashi did use a Genjutsu using the Sharingan against Zabuza, it's clearly explained during their second fight, he did that to force Zabuza to use a jutsu that Kakashi already knew to make him believe that he could see the future and screw up his mind.

The Mangekyou Sharingan allows to use special jutsu even more powerful than that but a regular Sharingan can also cast weaker Genjutsu.
This why Gai has to find a way to fight without looking at the eyes to compete against Kakashi.
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Old 2004-09-15, 21:54   Link #8
neji-kun
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I dont think its imagination that the sharingan spins after all it is called "Copy Wheel Eye"
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Old 2004-09-18, 22:09   Link #9
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what exactly does the sharingan do...
is its broad ability the ability to see through jutsu, and a specific ability is the copy technique by kakashi, or what..
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Old 2004-09-18, 22:41   Link #10
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coash
what exactly does the sharingan do...
is its broad ability the ability to see through jutsu, and a specific ability is the copy technique by kakashi, or what..
It has certain degrees of farsight, A full flegded Sharingan can predict attacks by..i'd guess a second, wich is maybe too much but around that number.
Basically the attacker seems to move slower for the Sharingan user and the "path" the attack is about to take is visible to the Sharingan user.

Secondly it copies seals, not much to say here. It must copy some of the chakra flow needed for that particular nin/genjutsu but cannot see chakra as clearly as the Byakugan.

And last but not least, It has hypnotic abilites. The mangekyou Sharingan destroys the brain of the victim by making him go trough a terrible event in wich the Sharingan user controls time and space.

Actually...the Sharingan has a an additional attack, Itachi uses the Tsukiyoma to escape from Jirayas Rock Frog Mounth, but since we know little about this attack We can't really catagorize it.
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Old 2004-09-18, 23:57   Link #11
raijin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
And last but not least, It has hypnotic abilites. The mangekyou Sharingan destroys the brain of the victim by making him go trough a terrible event in wich the Sharingan user controls time and space.

Actually...the Sharingan has a an additional attack, Itachi uses the Tsukiyoma to escape from Jirayas Rock Frog Mounth, but since we know little about this attack We can't really catagorize it.
Just a little correction:

It is the genjutsu Tsukuyomi performed with the Mangekyou Sharingan which "destroys" an opponent's mind.

The black flame technique which Itachi used to burn through the Rock Toad's Mouth is called Amaterasu, not Tsukuyomi.
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Old 2004-09-19, 05:20   Link #12
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one more question
when kakashi was facing itachi, why did he bother to look at him with his one eyed sharingan. what good did it do? seems not looking did a world of better
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Old 2004-09-19, 07:50   Link #13
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raijin
Just a little correction:

It is the genjutsu Tsukuyomi performed with the Mangekyou Sharingan which "destroys" an opponent's mind.

The black flame technique which Itachi used to burn through the Rock Toad's Mouth is called Amaterasu, not Tsukuyomi.
Ah! thanks i knew that dind't sound right.
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Old 2004-09-19, 09:49   Link #14
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raijin
Just a little correction:

It is the genjutsu Tsukuyomi performed with the Mangekyou Sharingan which "destroys" an opponent's mind.

The black flame technique which Itachi used to burn through the Rock Toad's Mouth is called Amaterasu, not Tsukuyomi.
Actually I think the mangekyou alone (without executing the Tsuki-Yomi ) can 'destroy' the mind. What the Tsuki-Yomi does is allow the user to suggest a physical space where he is pretty much god to his victim. Both what Kakashi uses and what Itachi uses against Kakashi are suggestion techniques, where they make their opponent believe something that isn't true through hypnosis, Itachi's is obviously more powerful, probably because he is an Uchiha. Tsuki-Yomi is a technique based on this suggestion, basically the Tsuki-Yomi didn't make Kakashi think we was hanged on a cross, the Mangekyou did that, the Tsuki-Yomi allowed him to control mass, space and time within the illusion.
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Old 2004-09-19, 16:30   Link #15
raijin
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Originally Posted by VMLM3
Actually I think the mangekyou alone (without executing the Tsuki-Yomi ) can 'destroy' the mind. What the Tsuki-Yomi does is allow the user to suggest a physical space where he is pretty much god to his victim. Both what Kakashi uses and what Itachi uses against Kakashi are suggestion techniques, where they make their opponent believe something that isn't true through hypnosis, Itachi's is obviously more powerful, probably because he is an Uchiha. Tsuki-Yomi is a technique based on this suggestion, basically the Tsuki-Yomi didn't make Kakashi think we was hanged on a cross, the Mangekyou did that, the Tsuki-Yomi allowed him to control mass, space and time within the illusion.
Kisame specifically states:

"Wow... To take that jutsu (referring to Tsukuyomi) and not have his (Kakashi's) mind destroyed..."

It is the actual genjutsu Tsukuyomi which "destroys" the mind, the utilization of the Mangekyou Sharingan just allows the user to perform/control the technique.

The entire illusion was the result of Tsukuyomi, because Kakashi was foolish enough look into Itachi's Sharingan.
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Old 2004-09-19, 20:03   Link #16
jbruns
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coash
one more question
when kakashi was facing itachi, why did he bother to look at him with his one eyed sharingan. what good did it do? seems not looking did a world of better
What good would it have done if he had closed his eyes? Kisame and Itachi then would have killed them all. Kakashi did the only thing he could do in the situation and faced Itachi. Though both Asuma and Kurenai would have been completely useless, Kakashi would have a slightly better chance of defeating Itachi. Honestly think before you post...
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Old 2004-09-19, 20:14   Link #17
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...to all the people that said that Kakashi simply did a Kage Bunshin, or if Zabuza imagined it...wow. Seriously.

It's common knowledge that the Sharingan can cast genjutsu. That's why it does make sense that the Mangekyo Sharingan can cast an "ultimate" form of that genjutsu. None of the things Zabuza saw were fake... Why try to make up random bullshit, when the facts are explained right there?

Two more things... The basis of the Sharingan's prediction isn't being able to see the person moving slower, per se, it's just an enhanced sense of awareness, and the basis of copying jutsu obviously isn't simply copying the seals, since then anyone would be able to "copy" jutsu.
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Old 2004-09-19, 20:25   Link #18
VMLM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by raijin
Kisame specifically states:

"Wow... To take that jutsu (referring to Tsukuyomi) and not have his (Kakashi's) mind destroyed..."

It is the actual genjutsu Tsukuyomi which "destroys" the mind, the utilization of the Mangekyou Sharingan just allows the user to perform/control the technique.

The entire illusion was the result of Tsukuyomi, because Kakashi was foolish enough look into Itachi's Sharingan.
Well yes, the Tsuki-Yomi itself is what allowed Itachi to create a place where for a few seconds he controls time, space and mass; at least as far as Kakashi or any other of his victims are concerned. But the thing is Tsuki-Yomi itself doesn't hypnotize the victim, the Tsuki-Yomi doesn't do the suggesting, the mangekyou does that. In other words (what well all know to be true I think) the Mangekyou makes Tsuki-Yomi possible because of its powerful suggestion capabilities, Tsuki-Yomi allows Itachi to torture his victim to such awesome extent by allowing him to control time, space and mass within the mind of the mind of the victim.
But that doesn't mean that the Mangekyou alone can't cause some serious psychological damage. I mean, how lond do you think Sasuke could've standed seeing his parents killed again and again? Itachi doesn't have to use Tsuki-Yomi to cause damage. He has to use it against Kakashi because Kakashi would've been resistant to other less powerful genjutsu attacks thanks to his Sharingan.
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Old 2004-09-19, 22:27   Link #19
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Originally Posted by jbruns
Honestly think before you post...
eat crap. if people had to think there wouldn't be a forum. obviously you have no idea either
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Old 2004-09-20, 10:54   Link #20
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I think you're somewhat lost in the different term VMLM3

The Tsukiyomi is the name of the jutsu, the Mangekyou Sharingan is the name of the state of the Sharingan needed to use such jutsu and it's Itachi who hypnotizes the people.

I don't understand your point about Sasuke : Itachi did used the Tsukiyomi against him.

Now indeed the Tsukiyomi isn't the only Genjutsu that a Sharingan or worse a Mangekyou Sharingan user could use but probably the most powerful one.
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