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Old 2004-09-20, 17:14   Link #61
ubb
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Join Date: Apr 2004
I have this nagging feeling that some people feel that a series that is subbed by more than one group is oversubbed. Firstly, avoiding having a situation where several groups do one project is impossible. Secondly, it'd be more convenient(for us leechers of course) if one group happens to drop a series.
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Old 2004-09-20, 17:22   Link #62
bayoab
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roxfan
Just the first season.
Actually, they would not comment, but said that they had everything To heart. (Which was taken to mean all the Omakes too).
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Old 2004-09-20, 17:45   Link #63
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ubb
I have this nagging feeling that some people feel that a series that is subbed by more than one group is oversubbed. Firstly, avoiding having a situation where several groups do one project is impossible. Secondly, it'd be more convenient(for us leechers of course) if one group happens to drop a series.
Nonsense. 1-3 versions is not oversubbing. It is redundancy. It is only when 4+ groups are subbing a show that it becomes oversubbing. We only worry about oversubbing because there are cases where five or even ten groups sub the same show. Thirteen different versions of Chrno Crusade episode 1 were released by seventeen different groups. Four of them manged to release episode 14 before the license was announced. THAT'S oversubbing.

Spoiler for Chrno Crusade releases:

We'd like to never again see 51 different versions of a mere 5 episodes. That's an immense amount of redundant effort.


If anyone cares, there were a total of 95 different versions of the first 14 episodes released before the licensing announcement.
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Last edited by NoSanninWa; 2004-09-20 at 17:59.
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Old 2004-09-20, 18:18   Link #64
crumja
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Maybe so, but for every group that subs a series already subbed, the chances for another series to go unsubbed increase, as we have seen every season. The number of groups working on a show is irrelevant.
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Old 2004-09-20, 20:12   Link #65
roxfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotweiler
I hope Yakitate and Gakuen Alice are subbed caused they are two of the more popular series in Japan. There's no question that everyone and their mother are going to sub Bleach.
Dragosmore said he will definitely translate it, but not decided yet which group will actually release it (he translates for a number of groups).
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Old 2004-09-20, 20:18   Link #66
NoSanninWa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crumja
Maybe so, but for every group that subs a series already subbed, the chances for another series to go unsubbed increase, as we have seen every season. The number of groups working on a show is irrelevant.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what point you are trying to make. The tone of your post sounds like you disagree with me, you make some of the same points.

I agree that oversubbing is a bad thing. Perhaps we disagree on what oversubbing consists of. I feel that it starts at 4 groups. The number of groups working on a show is certainly relevant. Beyond that it becomes ridiculous how many groups are wasting their time.

Are you saying that 2 or 3 groups on a show is equally bad and should be counted as oversubbing also? I think that 2 or 3 groups is good because it gives us choice. Often a group will have a philosophy of fansubbing that I disagree with, so this way I can choose the group that I like best.

I'm in favor of the idea of coordinating fansubs, as you are, so that another debacle like Chrno Crusade does not happen.
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Old 2004-09-21, 00:05   Link #67
crumja
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I'm sorry, but since I am not a native speaker of English and have only lived in the US for 3 years, I often have difficulty communicating my thoughts in a clear and cohesive manner. My apologies. Please also note that all I am saying is just the opinion of a young and idealistic fansubbing newbie.

Oversubbing becomes a bad thing when it shifts resources to subbing something that is already subbed instead of something unsubbed. Instead of having all the new groups compete with "established" groups for how quickly an episode is released (which encourages speedsubbing), the new ones might consider doing something unsubbed for both practice, experience, and the download #s that most of them care so much about.

Anyway, yeah. Oversubbing shouldn't be described as > certain # of groups on a show. Instead, it should be for when a show attracts certain #s of groups that could be subbing other shows.

Indeed, choice is important, especially if a group is deficient in a certain aspect or doesn't sub with a "quality" mentality. However, it doesn't detract from the fact that oversubbing results in speedsubbing and an even greater overall decrease in quality.

2 or 3 groups, for me, is bad if there is a show that season that is not being subbed, assuming raws for that show are available and it is not licensed. Of course, most subbers will retort by saying that they sub what they like, which, frankly is imo, just rhetoric.

While coordination can minimize the amount of oversubbing by letting a group "claim" a series, it doesn't work when many groups refuse to participate. Also, certain groups might not have decided their shows for this season. Thus, increased consolidation is necessary. I understand that fewer groups with more people in each creates bureaucratic hassles; however, it is necessary for 2 reasons. More consolidation naturally means less oversubbing, since there are fewer groups. Also, it allows for some form of training, allowing newcomers to master their jobs and be able to produce quality work. Also, training them in that way tends to eliminate the speedsubbing mentality, which is usually caused by an inability to produce "quality", thus using speed as a means of attracting download numbers, which, imo, is the root of a group's decision to sub, despite what their rhetoric might be.

Of course, all of this probably won't make any sense, but I just think hate to see a series go unsubbed, which is why I am considering subbing To Heart, even though I disliked the pacing of the first season.
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Old 2004-09-21, 00:23   Link #68
Garylisk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bayoab
Actually, they would not comment, but said that they had everything To heart. (Which was taken to mean all the Omakes too).

Ah, but does it mean this new series as well?
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Old 2004-09-21, 00:36   Link #69
crumja
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I guess "everything" would mean the sequels. They're not licensing just the anime. Rather, they licensed the entire title and probably have rights to merchandise, games, and all the shows.

However, whether I sub it or not will depend on how animesuki, as my benchmark for licensed shows, deals with the show (licensed or not), and if anyone else picks it up.
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Old 2004-09-21, 04:40   Link #70
Killerattacks
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Like AvatarADV already said in another thread, there are many different license types, even for world licenses. "Everything" could really mean everything including season 2, but I rather tend to the interpretation "everything related somehow to season 1" which would be the omakes, merchandise, OSTs. AFAIK its common at least for non-american tv stations to license a US-show in seasons, not the entire show at once. On the one hand if the quotas are bad, they can easily drop the show and on the other hand, if the show becomes an unexpected blockbuster the original production studio can demand more money for the sequel seasons.

But it's ,of course, just guessing.
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Old 2004-09-21, 07:02   Link #71
kuru
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crumja
I guess "everything" would mean the sequels. They're not licensing just the anime. Rather, they licensed the entire title and probably have rights to merchandise, games, and all the shows.
And how do you explain the fact that the manga To Heart is being released by ADV Manga ? ADV Manga is part of ADV Films, not of The Right Stuf.

Your theory is wrong from the start because the main To Heart product isn't the anime, but the original game, that was hugely popular in Japan and has just now spread a "To Heart 2" new game.

BTW, about the character designs of the new anime series.... I like the older anime version too, but the new series designs seem to be based on the game designs, meaning they're the original look of the characters.
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Old 2004-09-21, 11:15   Link #72
LordBrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crumja
2 or 3 groups, for me, is bad if there is a show that season that is not being subbed, assuming raws for that show are available and it is not licensed. Of course, most subbers will retort by saying that they sub what they like, which, frankly is imo, just rhetoric.
For me, even if a show has 2-3 (or more) groups doing it, if not one of those groups is worth watching, the show is not yet oversubbed. For example, I'm forced to wait for the Elfen Lied DVDs to watch that particular show, because every single group working on it fails my quality standards (of course, I'm waiting for the show to be released on DVD because it's licensed anyway, but that's besides the point. This was just an example), even though there's like 6 or so groups working on it.

Oversubbing is certainly something fun to complain about, but I find it most useful as a tool to decide what I personally want to work on. If someone competent is already doing a show I had some desire to work on, I try not to waste my time duplicating their efforts. It confuses me when a group that clearly sucks starts an oversubbed show weeks after it starts airing, even though several more superior groups are already working on it. I just write that off as their being confused as well, and leave it at that.

The reason most fansubbers say they'll sub what they like is certainly rhetoric if you define the word as "verbal communication," but if you define it as "loud and confused and empty talk" (thanks dictionary.com), I will have to strongly disagree. Stop thinking of fansubbing as something that can be organized. It is not a single entity; it is not a company, with a single goal in mind. Even if there are several other competent groups working on a show I want to do more than anything in the world, I will still release my own version -- because I want to.

Fansubbing primarily is a hobby, and having you tell someone they're wasting their time oversubbing something really means very little to them because it is their free time to waste, and they will waste it as they see fit. It may make more sense to assign different groups to different shows, and make sure every show ever created gets subbed, but good luck with all that. If that's how you want to waste your time, have at it.

I don't really mean to steer the conversation even farther off course, but these arguments always bug me.
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Old 2004-09-21, 11:59   Link #73
LytHka
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The main point of discussing oversubbing is clear: it won't just disappear. You will always find shows that will create "fans for life." One people's opinion won't matter to them and they will go ahead and sub what they like.

I don't disagree with oversubbing ("doing what you like") under one condition: When a show is being "oversubbed", the situation usually contains lots of groups doing one show, different versions, a rainbow of typesetting styles, different timing styles, encoding quality and mistakes. That's the problem. While I do agree that there should be different versions for people to choose their preffered style of translating, editing and styles I'm very keen on having versions released that are acceptable, meaning a small # of/no mistakes in them. A leecher might not notice/not care about mistakes as long as he sees some kind of a translation with video+audio infront of him. Unfortunately some of us care (yes, all of the fansubbers releasing shows with questionable quality should just die).

(sidenote: The anime market isn't doing THAT bad, if there's 30+ anime series/season, now is it?)
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Old 2004-09-21, 12:15   Link #74
AndrewLB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LordBrian
For me, even if a show has 2-3 (or more) groups doing it, if not one of those groups is worth watching, the show is not yet oversubbed. For example, I'm forced to wait for the Elfen Lied DVDs to watch that particular show, because every single group working on it fails my quality standards (of course, I'm waiting for the show to be released on DVD because it's licensed anyway, but that's besides the point. This was just an example), even though there's like 6 or so groups working on it.
We might have gotten at least half decent scripts out for the R2 dvds if people actually helped edit them, instead of just using them to make hardsubs. Curse them.
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Old 2004-09-21, 13:52   Link #75
KoroshiyaX
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I have to agree with crumja.

It's more about shows being left unsubbed, which I believe is his point, rather than shows being oversubbed.

I have a feeling this season there will be a handful of good shows that will be ignored this upcoming season.

There are more than enough groups to sub almost everything, compared to when digi-fansubbers first started.

I noticed Shi-Fa is picking up a lot of stuff, I hope they will be able to keep up with their releases, as they've picked many good titles
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Old 2004-09-21, 16:27   Link #76
Leo_Otaku
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some look really cute and cool! I hope these get subbed (even if some say they will)

http://www.nanoha.com/ : this looks pretty cute!!! I hope

http://www.onmyoutaisenki.net/ : I dun care it i looks like another monster anime...it looks COOL

http://www.toei-anim.co.jp/tv/beet/: interesting

http://www.sunrise-inc.co.jp/my-hime/ : very interesting

http://www.kss-inc.co.jp/anime/kakyusei2/: looks CUTE!

http://www.uta-kata.com/ : quite CUTE

ok I'm done.....
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Old 2004-09-21, 17:28   Link #77
crumja
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuru
And how do you explain the fact that the manga To Heart is being released by ADV Manga ? ADV Manga is part of ADV Films, not of The Right Stuf.

Your theory is wrong from the start because the main To Heart product isn't the anime, but the original game, that was hugely popular in Japan and has just now spread a "To Heart 2" new game.

BTW, about the character designs of the new anime series.... I like the older anime version too, but the new series designs seem to be based on the game designs, meaning they're the original look of the characters.
Actually, I knew that To Heart originated as a game. Right now, there is no way, at least not for me, to confirm the licensing situation, so I'll automatically assume that it is licensed (might be a hardline approach for some).
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Old 2004-09-21, 18:01   Link #78
domino
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Someone needs to sub Harukanaru Toki no Naka de!! (and the list has the name wrong... there is no "sora" in the anime's title). The series is based on a popular Japanese PC/Playstation/GBA game series and has some of the best character designs I've seen in an anime in years.

The plot should appeal to anyone who liked Fushigi Yuugi. Think of it as Fushigi Yuugi with a less annoying romance. :D
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Old 2004-09-21, 18:18   Link #79
Darth_E_
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Hi There, we'll be trying to sub onmyou taisenki. It's not confirmed 100%, but it's on our To-Do list.

Yours,
-Elly
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Old 2004-09-21, 18:46   Link #80
roxfan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by domino
Someone needs to sub Harukanaru Toki no Naka de!! (and the list has the name wrong... there is no "sora" in the anime's title).
Well, there IS a "空" in the title... but now that I look in the dictionary, 時空 is one word and is read as "jikuu". Or you've got an official reading somewhere?
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