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Old 2004-09-22, 01:06   Link #441
pyu
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yinstro, I guess its the suitability of the whole setting with regards to the ever increasing power-levels.

Naruto was, and is (hopefully), about a ninja-in-training whose name is Naruto. Perhaps my perception is wrong, but aren't ninjas suppose to be dependent on speed, stealth and intelligence to accomplish their missions?

Perhaps Kishimoto's setting involves the shinobi being somewhat more similar to warriors and soldiers rather than espionage agents, but the idea was there at the beginning. Shinobi are supposed to be group in teams, with a team leader, and they are suppose to go out and accomplish missions in order to garner profit for their village and reputation for themselves.

It was a good concept, and a rather refreshing one.

Even though Kyubi was a demon of great power, it was sealed using a powerful jutsu that cost the Fourth Hokage his life. Though it denotes some link to the occult, it was still realistic, a one off.

The Haku arc was superb - a hint of the Kyubi in Naruto, but the scale of the fight was still okay.

The Chunin Exam arc was very good, till the end with Gaara v.s Naruto part - but still okay, with the reason being the demons sealed within the two boys.

Then came the 'Find Tsunade' arc, and near the end, the huge Sanin fight. I can accept the fact that the Sanins are extraordinary shinobi who are masters of their craft, thus the scale of the fight becomes okay.

Then came the 'Chase Sasuke' arc. Here is where the madness begins. The genins in Shikamaru's team find themselves going against Orochimaru's elite guards, who also took down two jounins at the start. However, the elite guards find themselves down for the count despite all their abilities. After swallowing that large chunk of disbelief, I can write that off as that the genins had alot of luck, their fate is somewhat uncertain (Neji and Chouji) and the guards underestimated them.

Then now you have Naruto and Sasuke duking it out with no semblance of stealth or craftiness. Just pure power and pure destruction. Kyubi-fied Naruto versus Cursed Seal Sasuke. And its gaining supernatural tones already.

Its the awkwardness of the whole thing that galls me. Somehow, I feel Kishimoto is allowing the characters and situation to dictate to him, not the other way round. Maybe its fine for him, but I just find it unsettling - and somewhat disappointing.
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Old 2004-09-22, 03:41   Link #442
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyu
Its the awkwardness of the whole thing that galls me. Somehow, I feel Kishimoto is allowing the characters and situation to dictate to him, not the other way round. Maybe its fine for him, but I just find it unsettling - and somewhat disappointing.
You and alot of others,

Kishimoto finds himself stuck with a team of genins who fight "demons" and ends up with no other option then an over the top Naruto-Sasuke fight. Wich had to be the best of all but since the other ones were beyond ridiculous,
  • Gaara nearly invincible against a ninja on Kakashi's level.
  • Choji who eats a god damn pill wich makes him "hunderd times" stronger
  • Kiba who henges in a 30 foot super-dog
  • Lee who fights on par with that same Kimimaro while he has been in the hospital for over 40 epsiodes
  • Kimimaro's bone ability

Basically the only fight I considered normal (and the coolest for that matter) was Neji's and Shikamaru's fight.

So there you have it, incredible powers have been shown, and the showdown between 2 lead characters commences! what to do what to do?
Ofcourse, they power up till there's no tommorow because they have to top the previous battles.

If you look back on these facts I personally think the root of all evil is that god-damn Cursed Seal, this thing throws of the whole balance of the serie so far.
It used to be clear,
Talented chuunin like sasuke and Neji would never have been a match for a Konoha Jounin, let alone trash like Choji and Kiba, Sannin were a level above that you didn't question that.
And all of a sudden because of the cursed seal Orochimaru's helper gains powers comparable to a jounin and these genins either beat them or fight on par with them!!
Where's the sense in that?

An even more severe point is the future of the Storyline, now that all genin have shown their great power they will have to keep fighting stonger enemy's because otherwise we forum-nerds would be wondering "hey...how's that possible, kidoumaru was stronger then mister x?" and so on and so on.

Just because that shitty cursed seal had to throw everything of balance...

sheehs regrettable...
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Last edited by Animizzle; 2004-09-22 at 08:24.
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Old 2004-09-22, 04:25   Link #443
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everything would be in line if only sasuke and kimimaro had the seal. it would at least make a little more sense.
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Old 2004-09-22, 06:35   Link #444
ChildGamez
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I agree on the cursed seal being the source of "evil" I hate the fast powering up too, but:
-If (and only IF) Chouji dies then I think those pills were ok. Because then only "heroes" and stupid people use them and they die
-Gaara is strong and I don't see reason why he shouldn't. IMO Neji and Gaara should stay very close to Sasuke's and Naruto's level making story more interesting ( + I think Gaara will became Kazekage one day so he needs to be hella strong).
-Was Kimimaro Kakashi's level? I maybe have missed when they said that but personaly I think all he had was his bone ability. And because he died and the ability died with him it's fine that he had it ... It was meaned for showing that Gaara has trained too

Though I would like to see some of those "sound fours" survive so that they could take rematch and be killed again

EDIT: If only Kimimaro and Sasuke would have had CS2 then there would be argument why the hell did Sasuke get it and "Sound Four" didn't. But then again .. It would have been better way than making them all have it. I think best way would have been that Spider guy and flute girl would have had them(+Kimi and Sasu ofcourse). Then Choju could have survived with like "this pill makes me 2 times stronger but I maybe won't survive it". and I think Neji's sacrifise and Temaris great summon ability earned the victory.
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Old 2004-09-22, 08:19   Link #445
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChildGamez
-Was Kimimaro Kakashi's level? I maybe have missed when they said that but personaly I think all he had was his bone ability. And because he died and the ability died with him it's fine that he had it ... It was meaned for showing that Gaara has trained too
I think I defended that statement a while ago but anyway,here we go again.

4 lvl 2 cursed seal nin's are stronger then 3 Konoha Jounins.(Genma & co were beaten) Even tho they were outnumbered, I doubt that with four of them they could have won.
So the sound-nins lvl2 cursed seal is already stronger then a regular jounin.

Kimimaro is stronger than each on of the sound 4. This would put him even further above a regular jounin.

Kakashi is not a regular jounin, he's a genius jounin with lot's of Jutsu's and 1 sharingan eye. This puts Kakashi above the jounins that were defeated.

Following this simple logic, Kimimaro would be either stronger weaker or on par with Kakashi depending on how much Kakashi differs from the regular Jounins.
My guess is that the difference is big, but not THAT big, hence Kimimaro is equal or even stronger then Kakashi

Ofcourse...this is just following simple logic, In a Ninja battle the strongest by statistic is not always the victor.
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Old 2004-09-22, 09:59   Link #446
slickrick23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
I think I defended that statement a while ago but anyway,here we go again.

4 lvl 2 cursed seal nin's are stronger then 3 Konoha Jounins.(Genma & co were beaten) Even tho they were outnumbered, I doubt that with four of them they could have won.
So the sound-nins lvl2 cursed seal is already stronger then a regular jounin.

Kimimaro is stronger than each on of the sound 4. This would put him even further above a regular jounin.

Kakashi is not a regular jounin, he's a genius jounin with lot's of Jutsu's and 1 sharingan eye. This puts Kakashi above the jounins that were defeated.

Following this simple logic, Kimimaro would be either stronger weaker or on par with Kakashi depending on how much Kakashi differs from the regular Jounins.
My guess is that the difference is big, but not THAT big, hence Kimimaro is equal or even stronger then Kakashi

Ofcourse...this is just following simple logic, In a Ninja battle the strongest by statistic is not always the victor.
you mean 4 level 2 CS sound ninja vs TWO jounins
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Old 2004-09-22, 10:06   Link #447
Hylik
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...Two very tired jounins :-)

Edit:
Do anyone else believe that Shino was on a mission with his father, because his bugs wouldn't have a problem defeating any of the Sound-nins?
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Old 2004-09-22, 10:11   Link #448
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Two very tired jounins who were out of chakra!
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Old 2004-09-22, 10:17   Link #449
Animizzle
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whoop! you're very right! how stupid of me.
Anyway even better so for my theory, it evens the odds a bit more.

It doens't change that much.

Whatever anybody wants to throw at me, Kimimaro is somewhere around kakashi's level, and Gaara beats him without a scratch.

that's all folks

edit:
Whootoo!!!!! while reading chapter 185 again As far as they show us The 4 nin's never use level 2. that would place them even further up and kimimaro WAY further, you'de almost say he is most ceartainly stronger then Kakashi.
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Old 2004-09-22, 10:22   Link #450
Hylik
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
whoop! you're very right! how stupid of me.
Anyway even better so for my theory, it evens the odds a bit more.

It doens't change that much.

Whatever anybody wants to throw at me, Kimimaro is somewhere around kakashi's level, and Gaara beats him without a scratch.

that's all folks
Just that it looked like Gaara was about to get killed by Kimimaro when he so appropriatly died. And if he didn't move his body with his will alone, would he have been faster/stronger?

Edit: Read on... it says clearly that they used level 2 curse seal in ep. 186
But later Oro says that if Kimimaro wouldn't have fallen ill and been in the attack against Konoha, killing the 3rd wouldn't have been any trouble. Or something like that.
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Old 2004-09-22, 10:29   Link #451
Animizzle
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Originally Posted by Hylik
Just that it looked like Gaara was about to get killed by Kimimaro when he so appropriatly died.
deja vu for me again, when stating the same point somebody asked me the same question.

It's beside the point, Gaara won and Kimi died. His illness had no effect on the fight they had in wich Gaara showed superior in every way.

Quote:
And if he didn't move his body with his will alone, would he have been faster/stronger?
Um..can't give you a straight awnser but I think that's unlikely, If his will was what made his body move it could have been even stronger Kimi's will was incredible. His faith in Orochimaru unmatchable.
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Old 2004-09-22, 10:54   Link #452
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You Guys Are Big Idiot!!!!

Why You Think Too Much About This Manga!!!

Just Enjoy The Story And Stop Making Any Assumption And Prediction
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Old 2004-09-22, 11:01   Link #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Animizzle
deja vu for me again, when stating the same point somebody asked me the same question.

It's beside the point, Gaara won and Kimi died. His illness had no effect on the fight they had in wich Gaara showed superior in every way.
Soo ... if Konohamaru were to challenge Itachi, while the latter suffered from cancer and dies before he can attack, did Konohamaru own Itachi?

Gaara said he was out of chakra, if Kimmimaro didn't die of the disease, he would have won, therefore, a healthy Kimmimaro is more powerful than Gaara. (Though an ill Kimmimaro is obviously not.)

Quote:
You Guys Are Big Idiot!!!!

Why You Think Too Much About This Manga!!!

Just Enjoy The Story And Stop Making Any Assumption And Prediction
If you don't like discussions about your favourite manga, don't bother to visit this forum. It's as easy as that.
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Old 2004-09-22, 11:18   Link #454
Zek
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Originally Posted by Animizzle
It's beside the point, Gaara won and Kimi died. His illness had no effect on the fight they had in wich Gaara showed superior in every way.
None of Gaara's attacks had an effect on Kimi, and vice versa. And I'd say that the disease had quite an important impact on the outcome of the fight, seeing as Kimi succumbed to it right before delivering a finishing blow to Gaara. Gaara did "win" the fight, but only because of the disease; you can't possibly argue otherwise.
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Old 2004-09-22, 12:14   Link #455
yinstro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyu
yinstro, I guess its the suitability of the whole setting with regards to the ever increasing power-levels.

Naruto was, and is (hopefully), about a ninja-in-training whose name is Naruto. Perhaps my perception is wrong, but aren't ninjas suppose to be dependent on speed, stealth and intelligence to accomplish their missions?

Perhaps Kishimoto's setting involves the shinobi being somewhat more similar to warriors and soldiers rather than espionage agents, but the idea was there at the beginning. Shinobi are supposed to be group in teams, with a team leader, and they are suppose to go out and accomplish missions in order to garner profit for their village and reputation for themselves.

It was a good concept, and a rather refreshing one.

Even though Kyubi was a demon of great power, it was sealed using a powerful jutsu that cost the Fourth Hokage his life. Though it denotes some link to the occult, it was still realistic, a one off.

The Haku arc was superb - a hint of the Kyubi in Naruto, but the scale of the fight was still okay.

The Chunin Exam arc was very good, till the end with Gaara v.s Naruto part - but still okay, with the reason being the demons sealed within the two boys.

Then came the 'Find Tsunade' arc, and near the end, the huge Sanin fight. I can accept the fact that the Sanins are extraordinary shinobi who are masters of their craft, thus the scale of the fight becomes okay.

Then came the 'Chase Sasuke' arc. Here is where the madness begins. The genins in Shikamaru's team find themselves going against Orochimaru's elite guards, who also took down two jounins at the start. However, the elite guards find themselves down for the count despite all their abilities. After swallowing that large chunk of disbelief, I can write that off as that the genins had alot of luck, their fate is somewhat uncertain (Neji and Chouji) and the guards underestimated them.

Then now you have Naruto and Sasuke duking it out with no semblance of stealth or craftiness. Just pure power and pure destruction. Kyubi-fied Naruto versus Cursed Seal Sasuke. And its gaining supernatural tones already.

Its the awkwardness of the whole thing that galls me. Somehow, I feel Kishimoto is allowing the characters and situation to dictate to him, not the other way round. Maybe its fine for him, but I just find it unsettling - and somewhat disappointing.
well the way i look at it, things would eventually enter a very high powered state in the series. In thie first arc the main charachter develops the ability to generate 1000s of copies of himself. also note while thsi is a greta ability for his age, it is not a incredible skill for a someone of around 26 or so. Looking at haku fight, honestly haku had ridiculous power, but due to haku's personality and desire to fake kill his opponents and minimize death, he used it in a certain way. Look how he killed his family, he didnt show the full power of his bloodline limit in that fight. in fact he is also only a 12-14 year old and proabaly would have improved even further.
I agree that ninjas are about stealth intelligience etc, in theory but naruto has never been that type of ninja, which many other ninjas chide him for. But thats naruto, sasuke is smarter but in reality he too hasnt capture the spirit of the ninja to out think your opponent or think outside the normal. He relies on honed skill and power. And even though the people think of themselves as ninjas and have a ninja concept, they are essentially soldiers or mercenaries. A ninja who specializes in taijutsu and fights with a certain moral code is more close to a kungfu or other type of fighter.
Many people have beef with choujis pill, i think his pill exemplifies a ninja, ninja are known for using any technique or tool they can to best their opponents with forsight and planning. Chouji's pill requires the user be extremely corpulent and be eating for a great amount of time to make it effective, it also risks the life. Not to mention, it doesnt last, if the sound guy ran from chouji for like 2 minutes, choujis pill probably would have consumed to much of his body. That was chouji's ninja tool, and the pills or foods are apparently a part of his families ninjutsu. You can say its fake or you dont like it, but go fight someone your way better than when they are on pcp and see what happens. its an extension of something that exists in the real world.
lee really didnt show impressive skill at all, kinimaro was slower than him by his own admission and was simply able to predict his moves, and although lee was able to avoid getting killed for a time, he did no damage, and kinimaro didnt even use his full abilities
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Old 2004-09-22, 14:21   Link #456
Animizzle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthriel
Soo ... if Konohamaru were to challenge Itachi, while the latter suffered from cancer and dies before he can attack, did Konohamaru own Itachi?

Gaara said he was out of chakra, if Kimmimaro didn't die of the disease, he would have won, therefore, a healthy Kimmimaro is more powerful than Gaara. (Though an ill Kimmimaro is obviously not.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by zek
None of Gaara's attacks had an effect on Kimi, and vice versa. And I'd say that the disease had quite an important impact on the outcome of the fight, seeing as Kimi succumbed to it right before delivering a finishing blow to Gaara. Gaara did "win" the fight, but only because of the disease; you can't possibly argue otherwise.
Good point guys, im speechless.

Let me put it like this. The fact that Gaara survived al those incredible attack from Kimimaro TO the point where Kimimaro died (tough luck kimi die screaming) is tough to swallow for me, While you guys are right that Kimi would have won if he dind't well..died...I still can't get over the fact that he put up such a good fight against an enemy of kakashi's level(arguably )

Because in the end, it was Gaara's strength that got him that far, his imo exagerated strength.
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Old 2004-09-22, 15:31   Link #457
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that's bullshit come on.....if gaara won is because he won....in a fight there is also luck.....what if he won even though he was sick...?
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Old 2004-09-22, 16:08   Link #458
Gon the Freec
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Well , all i know is that the next chapter is going to be sweet...........well i hope
And Kishimoto better make it a good one !!!
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Old 2004-09-22, 16:10   Link #459
Animizzle
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Originally Posted by Steffa
that's bullshit come on.....if gaara won is because he won....in a fight there is also luck.....what if he won even though he was sick...?
What's bullshit about it? It's a personal opinion, and from what I can translate in your poorly written post, if Kimimaro won, I would still think that Gaara's strenght was too much to be able to last that long against Kimimaro.
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Old 2004-09-22, 18:33   Link #460
king1980
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sorry could not find out how to do spoiler tags

SPOILER>>>>CH 232>>>>SPOILER (just highlight)

thats me by the way........see last line!

Note this spoiler contains the dialogue that may occur in 232 however its not official so sorry if im leadin u down the garden path

p.s. I can't take credit for this as only i found a link to this on a naruto site and cut and pasted it here

Naruto:
"...!"
"Special...is that what it is...."
Sasuke:
"Kuku...I'm not ready to lose."
Here, Naruto attacks Sasuke, his right hand penetrating him (I think)!
[a bunch of various sfx]
Although it hits, you can't see it because of a dust cloud. The dust cloud clears, with a hissing sound.
Naruto:
"!!"
Where Naruto thought he hit Sasuke, something engulfing him is protecting him.
Naruto:
"!?"
Whatever it is knocks Naruto away.
Naruto:
"Guh!"
And he smashes off the cliff.
Naruto:
".......!"
"Guh..."
Sasuke:
"Uu...guu..."
"Guu..."
Naruto:
"..."
The thing that engulfed Sasuke is a monstrous "shuttlecock"!!! (Was it the Heaven Seal that created this shuttlecock?)
[Note: I'm WTFing on this too, but that's what it says. Maybe just resembling one, like a circle of feathers?]
Naruto:
"Sasuke....you..."
Sasuke:
"Uuu..."

Here we Sasuke's flashback.
Sakon:
"If you hold the released state for a while, the seal begins to corrode the body."
End of flashback.

Sasuke:
"I dont have time to waste..."
Naruto:
"Guh..."
"!"
"I can't feel my left hand!"
Sasuke:
"That power of yours...of course there was a risk..."
Naruto:
"!"
Sasuke:
"..."
"Do you know...?"
"This is called the "Valley of the End", the country border."
"The perfect setting..."
"Isn't it...Naruto"
Naruto:
"..."
Sasuke:
"Yes...that's right..."
"Like I said, the time for talk is over..."
Naruto:
"..."
Sasuke:
"Hmm, finally it's ending..."
"This battle..."

And then when you turn over the page...
A 2-page spread of flashback scenes from the time of the academy to the current time is shown.
Sasuke:
"The battle up till now..."
"From now on..."
Sasuke uses a Chidori, Naruto uses a Rasengan.
As for the Rasengan, surrounding the usual white sphere is a dim beach ball-sized sphere! (Thus us because of the Kyuubi's power?) But he's not using a Kage Bunshin.
As for the Chidori, with the usual "Pachichichichi" sound, a strange black lightning is seen.

And it ends with the Rasengan and the Chidori striking each other!

What they shared up till now...
And what they should share from now on...
"I can't give up" "I can't look back" These clashing hearts, with this strike everything begins!!

sorry about the fact that there were no spoiler tags

Last edited by king1980; 2004-09-22 at 18:55.
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