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Old 2004-09-30, 12:12   Link #21
musouka
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Here's my problem with that.

He keeps on saying that he wants to know if anyone picked up on anything from episodes previous. Obviously no one has, otherwise they would have responded the first time he voiced a complaint. So what is the point in asking the exact same thing an episode later? All he's doing is making us manga fans tear our hair out because we want to be able to defend the show, but can't do it unless we use spoilers. Which he doesn't want.

I can understand not wanting to be spoiled. But it is also furstrating to see something you enjoy garner useless complaints that you can't do a thing to defend against.
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Old 2004-09-30, 14:39   Link #22
hooliganj
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While I'm as guilty as everyone else, this has gotten quite a bit . Perhaps avmoghe's posting tendecies could be discussed elsewhere, either through PMs or in a thread of it's own, if there's enough interest.

Getting back to The Men's Table: of the three characters who have had complaints lodged against them, the complaint against Heckel is the most valid, but at the same time the most groundless. Valid in that he is a very minor character, but groundless in that he isn't even hanging out with Tenma. He does not travel around with Tenma, nor does he have any interest whatsoever in Johan. He is a scavenger/survivor in Germany's underground, looking for work wherever he can find it. And when that work calls for a doctor, he just happens to know an incredibly good one who has his own reasons for not involving the police. Very convenient, right?

In a different thread I stated reasons why Deiter is important thematically, even if he has no bearing on the actual plot, yet. But to assume that a show like this would have a persistant running character and not have him matter at all would be mistaken. For now, Deiter serves as aid and comfort to our hero. Later, who knows? It doesn't serve any purpose to keep wheedling on about it. And this is at least the third time I've seen you bring this point up avmoghe, and for message board standards, that's pretty incessant. It's not like the entire thread you started just to make this complaint has gone anywhere.

Finally, Eva. Once again you miss an important fact about the character - she wants Tenma to suffer. She thought she wanted him dead (or at least, the viewer is lead to believe that), but in the end couldn't bring herself to do it. In betraying Roberto she saves Tenma and co., but she still insists that she'll see him pay for what he's done. Personally, I think her delusions are starting to crack, and she is slowly realizing that everything she blames Tenma for is baseless, but that will involve facing up to the fact that she has been a horrible person up 'til now, and much of what has happened to her is her own fault.

If you need a plot-related reason for her continued involvement, since character development alone isn't enough to justify it for you, you may safely assume that Eva is another unwitting pawn in Johan's grand scheme of things. I don't think it's spoiling much of anything to say that. Roberto not killing her should have a dead give-away.
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Old 2004-09-30, 18:16   Link #23
avmoghe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by musouka
Here's my problem with that.

He keeps on saying that he wants to know if anyone picked up on anything from episodes previous. Obviously no one has, otherwise they would have responded the first time he voiced a complaint. So what is the point in asking the exact same thing an episode later? All he's doing is making us manga fans tear our hair out because we want to be able to defend the show, but can't do it unless we use spoilers. Which he doesn't want.

I can understand not wanting to be spoiled. But it is also furstrating to see something you enjoy garner useless complaints that you can't do a thing to defend against.
Is that supposed to be funny or are you TRYING to make me lose my temper? Read my damn posts. The last time I brought up the issue of Deiter hanging around Tenma was in episode 20. If you're too stupid to do that mathematical calculation, that is FOUR episodes ago. A difference of four weeks in episode airing date. The other two questions about Eva and Heckel have either not been brought up before, or might have been brought up even earlier than four episodes ago. So, no, I am not bringing up the same issue "an episode later". Make bloody sure you know what you are talking about next time you try and accuse me of bringing something up "an episode later".


Quote:
Getting back to The Men's Table: of the three characters who have had complaints lodged against them, the complaint against Heckel is the most valid, but at the same time the most groundless. Valid in that he is a very minor character, but groundless in that he isn't even hanging out with Tenma. He does not travel around with Tenma, nor does he have any interest whatsoever in Johan. He is a scavenger/survivor in Germany's underground, looking for work wherever he can find it. And when that work calls for a doctor, he just happens to know an incredibly good one who has his own reasons for not involving the police. Very convenient, right?
Not very convenient. Heckel is after money. Tenma is not. The amount of money Heckel would make by going after priceless rugs, or robbing homes is far more than what he is going to make buy just hanging around with Tenma. Tenma isn't interested in finding people to heal, nor is he interested the least in charging them substantial amounts of money. If Heckel had gone back and tried to con shop owners out of priceless rugs, he might have been more successful. Bottom line - there is a lot more money in stealing then there is in hanging around with a doctor who isn't even trying to find clients.


Quote:
In a different thread I stated reasons why Deiter is important thematically, even if he has no bearing on the actual plot, yet. But to assume that a show like this would have a persistant running character and not have him matter at all would be mistaken. For now, Deiter serves as aid and comfort to our hero. Later, who knows? It doesn't serve any purpose to keep wheedling on about it. And this is at least the third time I've seen you bring this point up avmoghe, and for message board standards, that's pretty incessant. It's not like the entire thread you started just to make this complaint has gone anywhere.
Read above. The last time I brought up the issue was FOUR episodes ago. Point me to where I have made a new thread to make this complaint. My post about episode 20 also contained a general response to the episode. My post in this thread does the same as well. Bringing up an issue that was brought up in a part of an episode thread for an episode that aired four weeks ago is supposed to be incessant?

Now, as for your actual response. How Deiter becomes relevant to the plot at some time in the future is completely irrelevant. The fact that Tenma is letting Deiter stay with him at this point in time.. that is what is non-sensical. Its Tenma who is DRAGGING around Deiter. Tenma knows he shouldn't have Deiter there. Tenma knows he should've left Deiter in a home or the town that they came across. In simple terms, Tenma is LETTING Deiter come along with him on a journey that has no use, or place for him. As the audience, we know everything Tenma knows. And given what he knows, there is absolutely no reason for letting Deiter tag along with him. Tenma knows what should be done, and it not doing it due to the stubbornness of a little kid. That is what is annoying about Deiter's presence. Tenma isn't selfish enough to say "oh this kid comforts me, so I'll let him come along with me while I try and stop a mass murderer".


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Finally, Eva. Once again you miss an important fact about the character - she wants Tenma to suffer. She thought she wanted him dead (or at least, the viewer is lead to believe that), but in the end couldn't bring herself to do it. In betraying Roberto she saves Tenma and co., but she still insists that she'll see him pay for what he's done. Personally, I think her delusions are starting to crack, and she is slowly realizing that everything she blames Tenma for is baseless, but that will involve facing up to the fact that she has been a horrible person up 'til now, and much of what has happened to her is her own fault.
Did you read my first post? My objection wasn't to Eva's presence in the episode. It was to Eva surviving the episode. Roberto should have killed her immediately when she was of no more use to him. If he was supposed to leave her alive, why even contemplate killing her while pointing a gun at her?

If Roberto is killing every person that has met Johan (which is what it seems at this point), it really makes no sense to let her live. On this point, I am waiting for an answer from future episodes. My initial hope was for someone in this thread to provide me with a quick answer as to why Roberto didn't manage to kill her. But it seems no one has an answer to that. So, this is added to my already huge list of questions (like why Lunge seeming doesn't care about bringing murderers to justice anymore, or why Johan left Eva alive in the first place).

Again, my objection was never to Eva being in this episode.. it was to her surviving the episode.
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Old 2004-09-30, 19:27   Link #24
hooliganj
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Is that supposed to be funny or are you TRYING to make me lose my temper? Read my damn posts. The last time I brought up the issue of Deiter hanging around Tenma was in episode 20. If you're too stupid to do that mathematical calculation, that is FOUR episodes ago. A difference of four weeks in episode airing date. The other two questions about Eva and Heckel have either not been brought up before, or might have been brought up even earlier than four episodes ago. So, no, I am not bringing up the same issue "an episode later". Make bloody sure you know what you are talking about next time you try and accuse me of bringing something up "an episode later".
Just as a note: it may not have been "an episode later", but it was the very next episode that Deiter was in. Can we hope not to have this same debate everytime the poor kid appears?

Quote:
Not very convenient. Heckel is after money. Tenma is not. The amount of money Heckel would make by going after priceless rugs, or robbing homes is far more than what he is going to make buy just hanging around with Tenma. Tenma isn't interested in finding people to heal, nor is he interested the least in charging them substantial amounts of money. If Heckel had gone back and tried to con shop owners out of priceless rugs, he might have been more successful. Bottom line - there is a lot more money in stealing then there is in hanging around with a doctor who isn't even trying to find clients.
What part of "he isn't just hanging out with Tenma" didn't you understand? When Heckel isn't trying to scam rich criminals in need of medical treatment, I'm sure he's burgling mansions and scamming pawn shops just like always. He's around in this episode because he provided Tenma with a job and wants to make sure he gets his payment. For his part, Tenma may not be interested in making substantial amounts of money (otherwise, I'm sure he could find these jobs himself), but he does need a significant amount of cash to bankroll his hunt for Johan. And to feed himself and Deiter.
Quote:
Read above. The last time I brought up the issue was FOUR episodes ago. Point me to where I have made a new thread to make this complaint. My post about episode 20 also contained a general response to the episode. My post in this thread does the same as well. Bringing up an issue that was brought up in a part of an episode thread for an episode that aired four weeks ago is supposed to be incessant?
You're right, you didn't make the other threads, the debate just got so out of hand that they wound up hijacked. And yes, it is incessant. Remember, this is a message board. The old posts don't go away. All you have to do is say something like, "It's annoying that Tenma's still dragging that kid along," and maybe post a link to the older debate if you really need to make your point. Otherwise, there's no new info here, and you're still not going to let the manga readers provide their evidence. So what's the point? You've already had your discussion.
Quote:
Now, as for your actual response. How Deiter becomes relevant to the plot at some time in the future is completely irrelevant. The fact that Tenma is letting Deiter stay with him at this point in time.. that is what is non-sensical. Its Tenma who is DRAGGING around Deiter. Tenma knows he shouldn't have Deiter there. Tenma knows he should've left Deiter in a home or the town that they came across. In simple terms, Tenma is LETTING Deiter come along with him on a journey that has no use, or place for him. As the audience, we know everything Tenma knows. And given what he knows, there is absolutely no reason for letting Deiter tag along with him. Tenma knows what should be done, and it not doing it due to the stubbornness of a little kid. That is what is annoying about Deiter's presence. Tenma isn't selfish enough to say "oh this kid comforts me, so I'll let him come along with me while I try and stop a mass murderer".
You complained when you were accused of not having faith in the author, and now you say that Deiter's future involvement is irrelevant? And you've completely misconstrued my argument. This isn't a discussion anymore, it's an argument for the sake of arguing. From now on, I'm only responding to new points or new evidence. No more of this rehash, I'd rather just watch the show again.
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Did you read my first post? My objection wasn't to Eva's presence in the episode. It was to Eva surviving the episode. Roberto should have killed her immediately when she was of no more use to him. If he was supposed to leave her alive, why even contemplate killing her while pointing a gun at her?

If Roberto is killing every person that has met Johan (which is what it seems at this point), it really makes no sense to let her live. On this point, I am waiting for an answer from future episodes. My initial hope was for someone in this thread to provide me with a quick answer as to why Roberto didn't manage to kill her. But it seems no one has an answer to that. So, this is added to my already huge list of questions (like why Lunge seeming doesn't care about bringing murderers to justice anymore, or why Johan left Eva alive in the first place).

Again, my objection was never to Eva being in this episode.. it was to her surviving the episode.
The points that support her presence in this episode also support her continued presence in the series, but according to you future plot is "irrelevant". Why didn't Tenma just plug Johan when he had the chance? I mean, it's not like there needs to be any dramatic tension or character development, right?
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Old 2004-09-30, 22:03   Link #25
avmoghe
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Quote:
What part of "he isn't just hanging out with Tenma" didn't you understand? When Heckel isn't trying to scam rich criminals in need of medical treatment, I'm sure he's burgling mansions and scamming pawn shops just like always. He's around in this episode because he provided Tenma with a job and wants to make sure he gets his payment. For his part, Tenma may not be interested in making substantial amounts of money (otherwise, I'm sure he could find these jobs himself), but he does need a significant amount of cash to bankroll his hunt for Johan. And to feed himself and Deiter.
Where exactly was it stated that Heckel was the one who got Tenma a job for some payment in return? Is he really making any money through this? Why is he even providing jobs to Tenma? You think Tenma is just going to hand over money to Heckel because Heckel wants money? Tenma will take the money and use it to hunt down Johan. Tenma doesn't consider Heckel as a partner in business. It does Heckel NO GOOD whatsoever to hand new jobs to Tenma. Coming up with new jobs for Tenma to do is just a waste of time for Heckel.


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You're right, you didn't make the other threads, the debate just got so out of hand that they wound up hijacked. And yes, it is incessant. Remember, this is a message board. The old posts don't go away. All you have to do is say something like, "It's annoying that Tenma's still dragging that kid along," and maybe post a link to the older debate if you really need to make your point. Otherwise, there's no new info here, and you're still not going to let the manga readers provide their evidence. So what's the point? You've already had your discussion.
I DID something very similar to what you suggested. Read my first post. Instead of saying "It's annoying that Tenma's still dragging that kid along", and posting a link, I posted 3 sentences. So you're upset at my posting practices because I used 3 sentences instead of 1 sentence and a link?

The word incessant implies that I do it non-stop, and repeatedly after each episode. Doing it twice in the space of four episodes hardly qualifies.


Quote:
You complained when you were accused of not having faith in the author, and now you say that Deiter's future involvement is irrelevant? And you've completely misconstrued my argument. This isn't a discussion anymore, it's an argument for the sake of arguing. From now on, I'm only responding to new points or new evidence. No more of this rehash, I'd rather just watch the show again.
You're misunderstanding what I said. I said I have faith that the author will at a future time explain why for example Johan or Roberto left Eva alive. I continue to have this hope? Why? Because we do NOT know what Roberto or Johan knows. When it is revealed what they know, what their motives are, it will make sense why they chose to leave Eva alive.

Tenma's case is completely different. We know EVERYTHING Tenma knows. This is unlike Roberto or Johan (who we have no idea what they are thinking). Given the information that Tenma has, (and we know all of it), it is unwise to let Deiter drag along in episode 24. Nothing the author reveals in the future will ever justify Tenma having Deiter along in episode 24. The reason for this is, again, that we have complete knowledge of Tenma and his motives. So we are able to decide without doubt what Tenma should and should not do. Tenma himself knows he shouldn't have Deiter there with him in episode 24. In simple terms, nothing about Tenma can be revealed in the future that can possibly justify letting Deiter stay.

The case is different for Roberto or Johan who have unclear motives.. it is in these unclear cases where I have faith in the authors abilities to explain their actions.

Quote:
The points that support her presence in this episode also support her continued presence in the series, but according to you future plot is "irrelevant". Why didn't Tenma just plug Johan when he had the chance? I mean, it's not like there needs to be any dramatic tension or character development, right?
Read the above part. It is in this case that I have faith that the author will make a revelation which will make Roberto leaving Eva alive make sense.

Why can the future revelations make this action of Roberto make sense while no future revelations can make Tenma's leaving Deiter around make sense? Again because in Roberto's case know everything in his mind... while in Tenma's case we DO know everything Tenma knows.
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Old 2004-10-01, 00:31   Link #26
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I propose that you are doing a lot more assuming about what's in Tenma's head than actual knowing. All I can tell you without spoiling anything is that you are dead wrong on a number of points, as I'm sure you will discover as the series unfolds.

Quote:
Where exactly was it stated that Heckel was the one who got Tenma a job for some payment in return? Is he really making any money through this? Why is he even providing jobs to Tenma? You think Tenma is just going to hand over money to Heckel because Heckel wants money? Tenma will take the money and use it to hunt down Johan. Tenma doesn't consider Heckel as a partner in business. It does Heckel NO GOOD whatsoever to hand new jobs to Tenma. Coming up with new jobs for Tenma to do is just a waste of time for Heckel.
This is the arrangement that Heckel proposed back when they first met. Tenma has apparently decided that since he does need money, and he is still a doctor, he may as well put his skills to work. As you have pointed out, Tenma is not an inherantly greedy person, so I doubt he has a problem letting Heckel collect an 'agent's fee' for his services.

As for what Heckel gets out of it, I'm sure that hooking up underground figures with medical service is a much safer racket than anything else he's got running. I'm also pretty sure that he only does this as a sideline, but he's the kind of opportunist that hates to see a chance to make a little extra dough go by. Maybe for this particular case Tenma asked to help out with taking care of the patient.

Also, we never do find out how much money is involved here. It's obvious that the patient is a very rich man, so we might be talking millions of deutchmarks, in which case I'm sure Heckel was willing to drop whatever else he had going and run right over. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but it would explain everything.
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Old 2004-10-01, 00:49   Link #27
avmoghe
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Quote:
I propose that you are doing a lot more assuming about what's in Tenma's head than actual knowing. All I can tell you without spoiling anything is that you are dead wrong on a number of points, as I'm sure you will discover as the series unfolds.
I welcome that. (Yes I appreciate the way you phrased that, it doesn't spoil anything) I have been wrong before, and I'm sure that I'll be wrong again many times in the future. I will just say that I absolutely cannot conceive of any reason for Tenma to want Deiter around at this point in time, nor can I conceive of Tenma possibly knowing something (that hasn't been revealed yet) that would justify Tenma Deiter along. But, as I say, I might be wrong.

Quote:
This is the arrangement that Heckel proposed back when they first met. Tenma has apparently decided that since he does need money, and he is still a doctor, he may as well put his skills to work. As you have pointed out, Tenma is not an inherantly greedy person, so I doubt he has a problem letting Heckel collect an 'agent's fee' for his services.

As for what Heckel gets out of it, I'm sure that hooking up underground figures with medical service is a much safer racket than anything else he's got running. I'm also pretty sure that he only does this as a sideline, but he's the kind of opportunist that hates to see a chance to make a little extra dough go by. Maybe for this particular case Tenma asked to help out with taking care of the patient.

Also, we never do find out how much money is involved here. It's obvious that the patient is a very rich man, so we might be talking millions of deutchmarks, in which case I'm sure Heckel was willing to drop whatever else he had going and run right over. I'm not saying this is necessarily the case, but it would explain everything.
Yup. I agree that Heckel proposed that. I just see no evidence of Tenma agreeing to it. But you are absolutely right in saying that IF Tenma is making lots of money, and is giving Heckel a substantial portion, then Heckel's presence is explained.

From a plot perspective, however, you cannot deny that it would make things clearer for viewers if it was explicitly mentioned (either now or in future episodes) that Heckel is indeed making money out of this arrangement. As it stands, there is no real indication that Heckel is making a single cent (or the german currency equivalent).
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Old 2004-10-02, 13:36   Link #28
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Although Tenma was never shown agreeing to Heckel's proposal he is shown doing exactly what he suggested, i.e. taking care of criminals for money. I think they propably didn't bother showing the scene because they thought the situation would be apparant to viewers if they remembered the previous discussion. Tenma wasn't excited about it, but I suspect he hasn't found any other way to fund his search, and Heckel undoubtably gets a good chunk of change working as the middle man.

As for Eva surviving, is it not possible that Roberto believed Eva's bluff? Or, if not, that he still wanted that picture so decided not to kill her yet? Or something else? Roberto's motives in this are still very much in the dark (and I want them that way, thx), so I found it beleivable that she survived.
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Old 2004-10-04, 23:13   Link #29
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I really doubt Eva fooled Roberto with the bluff. Roberto noticed her shaking all over when she bluffed. Eva herself mentioned that he didn't buy the bluff.

What is especially confusing is why he decided to shoot her in the foot. If he really wants the picture that badly, then I can understand leaving her alive.. but why take shoot her in the foot and risk killing her.

The only possible solution I can see at this point is that Roberto is truly desperate for the picture and so can't kill her. For some unknown reason, he decides to immobilize Eva for the next few days by shooting her in the foot. (I doubt he accurately predicted that shooting Eva in the foot would bring Tenma himself down).

Quite a clumsy explanation I would say. I hope for a better one.
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Old 2004-10-05, 00:54   Link #30
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Another solution presents itself: we have no evidence that Roberto is a good shot, only that he is ruthless in his tactics. I propose that he didn't buy the bluff, took a shot at her when she betrayed him, and then split before any more guards could show up. The guy mentions that Roberto has no way of knowing that the mansion is essentially unguarded, and was only using Eva as a way in in the first place.

So he hit her in the leg instead of the chest or head, and decided not to stick around to make sure she was done for. It's not like killing Eva is high on his list of priorities, and he can always get another chance later.
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Old 2004-10-05, 21:37   Link #31
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Roberto may not believe Eva's bluff. I'd question this; just because she's frightened when threatened with death (shaking) doesn't necessarily mean that her words are untrue. However, he might not want to take the chance that it's true. Belief that she's bluffing is guess, ableit an educated one. Given the length's Roberto is willing to go to erase Johan's background, why we he be willing to take that chance that she's not?

Also, Dieter was staying with Tenma on purpose. Tenma wanted to leave him in that one town, but Dieter decided to follow him.
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Old 2004-10-06, 01:00   Link #32
avmoghe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooliganj
Another solution presents itself: we have no evidence that Roberto is a good shot, only that he is ruthless in his tactics. I propose that he didn't buy the bluff, took a shot at her when she betrayed him, and then split before any more guards could show up. The guy mentions that Roberto has no way of knowing that the mansion is essentially unguarded, and was only using Eva as a way in in the first place.

So he hit her in the leg instead of the chest or head, and decided not to stick around to make sure she was done for. It's not like killing Eva is high on his list of priorities, and he can always get another chance later.
I consider that even more unlikely than the solution I presented. Roberto absolutely nailed the guard in the head from decent distance. Roberto should have been able to hit her pretty well since the bushes were about a similar distance. At least hit her torso. The leg seems waay off. Besides, it just doesn't seem to be in keeping with a guy described as a professional to be a bad shot.

Not to mention, even if he WAS a bad shot.. I dont see any harm in firing off a couple more rounds after he's seen that she was hit only in the leg. Wouldn't have taken that long.

He doesn't seem to be afraid of the guards coming down due to gunshot noises if thats what you mean... he already shot the first guard and still hung around. So I see no reason for him to get scared off after firing for a second time.

Quite simply, if he IS afraid of guards coming down, and killing Eva isn't that big of a priority, then he shouldn't have fired the first shot to begin with. If he ISN'T afraid of guards coming down, then he should've kept shooting to make sure she was dead.

The only indication that firing a single shot gives me is a deliberate attempt to shoot Eva's leg. That can only mean that he wants to slow her down or hospitalize her but can't kill her. And that is a very very strange thing to do... risking cutting the main artery in the leg like that.


Victim - I said it was possible that Roberto bought the bluff. In fact its the only explanation that I consider to be possible though I still consider it to be a very awkward explanation. Eva herself didn't think he bought the bluff. Roberto's demeanor didn't reflect him buying the bluff. Even stranger is his shooting of Eva... risking killing her by bleeding to death. But that strangeness is the only explanation I can see.
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Old 2004-10-06, 01:22   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
Quite simply, if he IS afraid of guards coming down, and killing Eva isn't that big of a priority, then he shouldn't have fired the first shot to begin with. If he ISN'T afraid of guards coming down, then he should've kept shooting to make sure she was dead.
Another possibility: Roberto is using the tried and true military tactic of shooting to wound in order to slow down any pursuers. Actually, now that I mention it, this seems like the best theory. If anyone comes down from the mansion and finds Eva wounded, but breathing, they have to stop and help her, or at least stop long enough to call back. On the other hand, if he kills her out right, then the pursuers find a dead body and keep searching for him.

In any case, I only offer these ideas because you always say you're looking for other explanations. For nit-picky points like this, I don't really know either. It may be nothing more than the fact that killing Eva now would throw off the plot later on.
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Old 2004-10-06, 03:35   Link #34
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I would hardly call expecting an explanation for an action as peculiar and ostentatious as shooting someone in the leg being "nit-picky".

This isn't Tenma eating a different cereal for breakfast one morning.

This is a ruthless and manipulative professional, who seems to be killing everyone in contact with Johan, going out of his way to shoot someone in the leg. Petty explanations aside, both you and I know perfectly well that if Roberto really wanted to, he could've shot Eva in the head.

I consider this as important an issue as Eva's other miraculous survival. Namely, Johan leaving Eva alive when he knows that she will probably corroborate Tenma's story and set the police on the trail for a man with his exact facial features.

In these two instances, however, I keep my faith in the author's abilities to furnish us with a clear and logical reason as to why Roberto and Johan have spared her (needless to say, "killing her would be inconvenient to the plot" doesn't qualify as a good reason)
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Old 2004-10-06, 22:38   Link #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avmoghe
I consider that even more unlikely than the solution I presented. Roberto absolutely nailed the guard in the head from decent distance. Roberto should have been able to hit her pretty well since the bushes were about a similar distance. At least hit her torso. The leg seems waay off. Besides, it just doesn't seem to be in keeping with a guy described as a professional to be a bad shot.
The only indication that firing a single shot gives me is a deliberate attempt to shoot Eva's leg. That can only mean that he wants to slow her down or hospitalize her but can't kill her. And that is a very very strange thing to do... risking cutting the main artery in the leg like that.


Victim - I said it was possible that Roberto bought the bluff. In fact its the only explanation that I consider to be possible though I still consider it to be a very awkward explanation. Eva herself didn't think he bought the bluff. Roberto's demeanor didn't reflect him buying the bluff. Even stranger is his shooting of Eva... risking killing her by bleeding to death. But that strangeness is the only explanation I can see.
It's possible, but unlikely Roberto believed Eva.

However, whether Roberto believes her or not is essentially irrelevant. He's not infallible. Even if he believes Eva is lying about the pictures, the small chance she's telling truth would (apparently) really mess up his plan. Since this plan seems pretty involved and includes others besides himself, and has some unrevealed purpose, even that small chance might be too much for him to risk. And the downsides of treating Eva as if you believed her aren't too great.

When he's going to shoot Eva, he has to treat her as if she had been telling the truth. First of all, as mentioned above, the consequences of being wrong on this count might be kind of dire. If he completely blows the plan, might the people he's working for go after him? Second, he completely misjudged Eva's motivation and purpose in going with him. Since he errored greatly in that, he might have reconsidered his belief that Eva was lying. After messing up once, he probably lost confidence in his ability to read her.
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Old 2004-10-07, 01:31   Link #36
avmoghe
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...

If the situation is indeed as you say, and Roberto cannot run the risk of killing Eva, why would he shoot her in the leg? You realize that Eva almost died right? If his shot had been off by even a couple of centimeters, he might have killed Eva by hitting the main artery going down the leg.

Would a person who cant risk killing Eva shoot her in the leg like that?
Do you honestly believe he would take that sort of a huge risk?

The explanation is no less clumsier than my own previous attempt to form one.

If Roberto bought Eva's bluff, or belived there was any sort of possibility in it being true, he should not have shot Eva at all.

If Roberto did NOT buy Eva's bluff at all, then he should've finished Eva off ... not just shot her in the leg.

This business of shooting someone in the leg and running the risk of killing her is going to require an explanation far more innovative than any I can produce.
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Old 2004-10-07, 02:38   Link #37
hooliganj
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There's only two ways you would die of a leg wound, one being that you bleed out (it would take at least an hour, if I remember my basic first aid correctly, and that only with no treatment whatsoever), or you could get an infection and die of that, which is easily countered by anyone with the right training and equipment. Even if it seems unlikely that Tenma himself would be running around in the woods, it is an extremely safe bet that all the noise would draw someone down from the mansion, and that Eva would be found long before she was in any real danger of dying.

There really wasn't any risk of killing her by shooting her in the leg. On the other side it means that Eva won't be coming after him, and anyone else who arrives on the scene will be held up taking care of her. All in all it seems the best thing Roberto could have possibly done in that situation.
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Old 2004-10-07, 04:24   Link #38
avmoghe
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Cutting the main artery in the leg (Femoral artery is one of the main ones I belive) can kill a person in five minutes. If that artery is cut, Eva is dead.. no two ways about it. Hell it wouldn't even matter if Tenma was right next to her.. she'd still die. Tenma has absolutely no equipment on him to stop the bleeding.

So no, there was no guarantee whatsoever of Eva being kept alive... unless you claim that Roberto knows exactly where the artery is supposed to be and feels he can miss the artery with certainty on Eva's already skinny leg.


Roberto didn't leave because he was afraid of people coming down after hearing some noise....Roberto's leave was for one single reason - Eva wasn't going to help him anymore... thats it.

He created no more noise in shooting Eva than he did in shooting the first guard. So if he is fine with the noise in shooting the guard, he must be fine with the noise in shooting Eva. People coming down from the mansion were never his concern.

An even more unlikely solution than my original one.
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Old 2004-10-07, 13:48   Link #39
hooliganj
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No, you won't bleed out in five minutes, it takes 10-15 minutes to bleed out from a direct chest or severe neck wound, assuming that the victim doesn't go immediately into shock from the trauma, and another 2-4 minutes for the brain to die of oxygen depravation after that. And even if Tenma had no equipment at all, a stick and some strong cloth is all you need for a tourniquet.

Furthurmore, it wouldn't be hard to shoot someone in the leg and not hit the artery, at 20 feet I could probably make that shot, definately Roberto could if he's half as good as you claim he should be. At the very least, he might have shot her in the foot. given that Eva was in a wheelchair afterwards, but didn't lose the leg, I'd say the bullet probably struck and broke the bone, but didn't do much else.
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Old 2004-10-07, 19:41   Link #40
avmoghe
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...

The exact minutes are irrelevant.

Here - http://www.gallupindependent.com/09-...unsuspect.html

It specifically states that it is possible to die in five minutes after cutting the artery. Five minutes, fifteen minutes.. it doesn't really matter. The point of the matter is Eva would NOT survive for hours if she was hit along that artery. Roberto has no way of knowing if ANYONE is even coming down to help her. The simple fact of the matter is Roberto took a huge risk of Eva dying.. and there are no two ways about it. Roberto doesn't know with any sort of certainty that ANYONE will come down to help her, nor does he know whoever comes down will even care about helping Eva... nor does he know if they will even have the ability to help her.. nor does he know if they will be able to help her in time.

Are you honestly trying to tell me Roberto had any sort of control over whether Eva died? No he didn't... he left her life up in the air. Your statement about there being "no risk of Eva dying" is simply wrong. There was a very very good chance of her dying.

I would call you a liar if you claim to be able to miss Eva's artery with certainty with a handgun such as that. If Eva is someone Roberto can't afford to kill.. he is taking a monumental chance in shooting her like that. Hell.. he's taking her a huge chance even if he DOES miss the artery. He has no clue if anyone will ever come down from the mansion in an hour or so.

Shooting Eva in the leg (where he might hit the artery) and leaving her in a place where she may or may not receive medical attention for hours is FAR from an assurance of Eva's survival. Not even close... The old guy even mentions how lucky Eva was.. in being treated by Tenma.

The only real way to guarantee her survival was to not shoot her, and not put her in a position where she would need medical attention. Roberto did not do that.
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