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Old 2011-09-08, 10:30   Link #421
Akiyoshi
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
You really don't want to make that argument since that would make Lutecia's mastering of device construction being difficult even less likely. Since using that argument means that aside from intricate hardware knowledge, she also needs intricate programming knowledge. That adds one more thing to the list of things she miraculously mastered in a short time while studying other things in the meantime.

An easy way around this is to just download a program template and tweak it.
Probably, still is demonstrated that Lu-chan is a smart and dedicated girl, affirming that any lazy kid with instructions can make a device as good as Brunzel is a bit exaggerated.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Of course its praised. We also praise the guy who builds us our computer. And of course there's a difference in skill between the girl who builds one device and the girl who does it as a hobby, but that again doesn't mean jack for the difficulty. And well paid? Source where?
Well, Shari and Mariel works for the military and make devices aimed to function in real combat scenarios and i bet she don't do that for free xDU

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Something had to be easier to master in a short time than others, and I'm placing my money on the one thing we've seen other kids do before.

Will someone with more experience make a better quality device? Yes. Practice makes perfect in anything you do in life. Does that mean that making an intelligent device is impossible for people who haven't spend three years studying? No.



None that we've ever heard of, so unless they pop up it's safe to assume she didn't have any help.
You're dancing between accepting fiction and comparing it with real life. History research is different for Mid-childans, while not as useful as Yuuno's scrying spells, the people on TSAB's worlds have numerous searching tools that make studying history a lot easier task than for an earthling student. Also, if you put effort and have interest you can become quite good in a reasonable short amount of time(also, is not like Lutecia knows everything about history, when she gives Einhart the info she needed to go back and make a little research to get the info, when the plot points her as "good in history" i think they refering Lutecia is a good researcher ...which is also a required ability to improve good Device Meister skills in all itself). You're talking about history and architecture as if they were completely separated subjects from device makeshifting when those three can actually be related. And that's why i think Lutecia is better than your common "kid with instructions" meister. She not only knows the basics but have the research skills and historical and structural knowledge to develop better quality devices.



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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... Helping the mage is pretty much a standard feature for an ID. I don't see how that makes Raising Hearth high quality.
Just comparing it with Bardiche makes RH a high-quality device. If not for RH Nanoha would be near fatally injured(if not outright killed) by Fate. Back at that point Nanoha was just a noob holding a really good sentinent weapon fighting an all-range expert like Fate armed with a state-of-the-art(for that time) ID called Bardiche. Raising Heart somehow managed to allow Nanoha to get out alive(if a bit bruised) of that first encounter and, as you said, ID's have the chance to develop, Nanoha and RH evolved at an astonishing speed over the course of a single month(from learning to just shield and sealing jewel seed to a full fledged aerial mage able to pull off a humongous bombardement spell like SLB). Then the Wolkenritter entered the scene and both undergo further evolution, the delicate device that Amy tought wouldn't stand the cartridge system accompanies Nanoha in a fight against a Godlike being adn then against an Eldritch abomination. Plus, even when Nanoha's powers are A or A+ at first that also is nothing to sneeze at it. Most mages and devices never reach that stage in all of their operational lives, Raising Heart had that level by default.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
It's been stated they SD's are preferred because of the whole "working with AI makes people nervous" thing. Not so much them being complicated. Heck, the DVD booklets pretty much say that the only difference between a storage and intelligent device is that the intelligent device has an AI. The difference is in the software, not the hardware. (which makes it really easy when you think about it. Download program template, install, done).
I think the Hardware has something to do. So far we haven't seen Storage Devices perform multi-tasking or taking a variety of different forms(i know Armed Devices are similar but they're slightly superior in terms of AI, which is probably what allows the variable modes). So yeah, i think the hardware also counts. There's still no canon example of an storage device transforming besides it's "standby mode".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Are we going to play that game again? *sigh* fine. Okay, we know she build the device, and we have zero evidence of someone helping her, so until someone appears who says he or she helped her she build it on her own.

There, happy?
Yay!
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Old 2011-09-08, 14:37   Link #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Probably, still is demonstrated that Lu-chan is a smart and dedicated girl, affirming that any lazy kid with instructions can make a device as good as Brunzel is a bit exaggerated.
I don't deny that Lutecia is a smart and dedicated girl. What we've seen of her clearly shows otherwise. All I'm arguing is that it is far from impossible for someone who hasn't spend years of studying to make a device on their own, even an intelligent one.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Well, Shari and Mariel works for the military and make devices aimed to function in real combat scenarios and i bet she don't do that for free xDU
There are also people who build computers for money. Again, things being a paying job does not make the job difficult.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
You're dancing between accepting fiction and comparing it with real life. History research is different for Mid-childans, while not as useful as Yuuno's scrying spells, the people on TSAB's worlds have numerous searching tools that make studying history a lot easier task than for an earthling student.
So far, all we've seen is the Mid equivalent of wikipedia. Which is certainly helpful in finding what you seek, but doesn't lessen the time it takes to study. Heck, Mid still uses physical books too, and Lutecia has a sizable library. And since Yuuno's scrying spells are Yuuno's, she'd have been doing her learning from those books the old fashioned way.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
You're talking about history and architecture as if they were completely separated subjects from device makeshifting when those three can actually be related.
... because they are? Minor comparisons might be made, but someone who knows how to design and build a house inside out doesn't automatically know the history of the European continent, and vice versa. Device mastery is yet another different beast.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
And that's why i think Lutecia is better than your common "kid with instructions" meister. She not only knows the basics but have the research skills and historical and structural knowledge to develop better quality devices.
Oh, I don't deny that Lutecia is more skilled than someone who's building their first device. I'm arguing that its possible for someone without study to build an intelligent device by doing research a-la computer building.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Just comparing it with Bardiche makes RH a high-quality device. If not for RH Nanoha would be near fatally injured(if not outright killed) by Fate. Back at that point Nanoha was just a noob holding a really good sentinent weapon fighting an all-range expert like Fate armed with a state-of-the-art(for that time) ID called Bardiche. Raising Heart somehow managed to allow Nanoha to get out alive(if a bit bruised) of that first encounter
Yes, that is again a standard function if ID's. Any ID can do this.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
and, as you said, ID's have the chance to develop, Nanoha and RH evolved at an astonishing speed over the course of a single month(from learning to just shield and sealing jewel seed to a full fledged aerial mage able to pull off a humongous bombardement spell like SLB). Then the Wolkenritter entered the scene and both undergo further evolution, the delicate device that Amy tought wouldn't stand the cartridge system accompanies Nanoha in a fight against a Godlike being adn then against an Eldritch abomination. Plus, even when Nanoha's powers are A or A+ at first that also is nothing to sneeze at it. Most mages and devices never reach that stage in all of their operational lives, Raising Heart had that level by default.
... Now you are attributing Nanoha's accomplishments to Raising Heart.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
I think the Hardware has something to do. So far we haven't seen Storage Devices perform multi-tasking or taking a variety of different forms(i know Armed Devices are similar but they're slightly superior in terms of AI, which is probably what allows the variable modes). So yeah, i think the hardware also counts. There's still no canon example of an storage device transforming besides it's "standby mode".
I'd like to know how you figure armed devices are 'slightly superior in terms of AI.'

Kerykeion grew wings, does that count?
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Old 2011-09-08, 15:17   Link #423
Akiyoshi
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Yeee-haww!!! the rodeo continues xD!

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I don't deny that Lutecia is a smart and dedicated girl. What we've seen of her clearly shows otherwise. All I'm arguing is that it is far from impossible for someone who hasn't spend years of studying to make a device on their own, even an intelligent one.
This sounds slightly different from what you're talked about before but i bet that this is sign that we're close to reach a middle ground on this. I don't deny the cances of someone with enough support and correct turorials to be an amateur meister, what i'm talking about is that making really good devices is not something as easy as get a tutorial and start working on it aimlessly.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
There are also people who build computers for money. Again, things being a paying job does not make the job difficult.
Still there's a humongous difference between someone who build computers as a hobby or in a small shop and someone who works for the military building and developing the more advanced systems that commoners like us wont see until 5 or 8 years. Both are paid, yes. But the level and overall quality of their jobs is cosmically different. Sure, as genius as she is, i don't think Lutecia is on the same league as Mariel and Shari but i bet she's on a middle ground above of those who simply follow manuals.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
So far, all we've seen is the Mid equivalent of wikipedia. Which is certainly helpful in finding what you seek, but doesn't lessen the time it takes to study. Heck, Mid still uses physical books too, and Lutecia has a sizable library. And since Yuuno's scrying spells are Yuuno's, she'd have been doing her learning from those books the old fashioned way.
Still, just because is said that Lutecia is good at History doen't mean it actually refers to her having enormous knowledge, a kid being good at History it probably refers to his interest and skills regarding history research and interpretation. This is fair ground until canon defines something.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... because they are? Minor comparisons might be made, but someone who knows how to design and build a house inside out doesn't automatically know the history of the European continent, and vice versa. Device mastery is yet another different beast.
And you're saying it was very easy a few posts before. It's hard to buy that Lutecia is just that good? And even if we opt to ignore that. Architecture and History are multidisciplinary subjects able to blend with other abilities or knowledge. Brunzel it's a pretty well designed device asthetic-wise, exploring ancient belkan history could give Lutecia lots of good ideas for devices while watching past war heroes, Architecture can be a good excersice for her mind when it come to proportions and forms. As good as Lutecia is on those subjects she wasn't going to a school so she can administrate her time the way she wants(under Megane's guidance i guess), maybe she started to work on devices after learning how to give maintenance to Asclepus and find that interesting thus turning it into a hobby, and then the mental excersice she does with History and Architecture(and all the subjects and skills involved into study those) helped her to understand device makeshifting a bit more easily, obtaining an edge over your common device meister.

...being friends with a real Unison Device, an Ancient Belkan swordswoman and her equally ancient belkan-related family also helps xD.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh, I don't deny that Lutecia is more skilled than someone who's building their first device. I'm arguing that its possible for someone without study to build an intelligent device by doing research a-la computer building.
Repeated and already answered above xDU

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Yes, that is again a standard function if ID's. Any ID can do this.
Then Fate must suck because after all the training and having and equally(if not more) powerfull device as her noobish opponent she constantly have problems with her.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
... Now you are attributing Nanoha's accomplishments to Raising Heart.
No i'm attributing the accomplishement to both of them, a great mage meets a great device and a new legend is born. Denying Raising Heart of the great accomplishments and risks she taked with hardcore resolve is not fair. Nanoha isn't the only one fighting RH has been with her in all those battles(part of my dissapointment at the Strike Cannon xDU).

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'd like to know how you figure armed devices are 'slightly superior in terms of AI.'
Let's say is a common believe shared by many.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Kerykeion grew wings, does that count?
Huh?
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Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2011-09-08 at 15:29.
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Old 2011-09-08, 15:48   Link #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
This sounds slightly different from what you're talked about before but i bet that this is sign that we're close to reach a middle ground on this. I don't deny the cances of someone with enough support and correct turorials to be an amateur meister, what i'm talking about is that making really good devices is not something as easy as get a tutorial and start working on it aimlessly.
My argument has never been "Lutecia is untalented" it's always been "building a device isn't as hard as some seem to think." Lutecia was merely caught in the crossfire when she was used as an example.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Still, just because is said that Lutecia is good at History doen't mean it actually refers to her having enormous knowledge, a kid being good at History it probably refers to his interest and skills regarding history research and interpretation. This is fair ground until canon defines something.
Accepted. This does not change the fact that such an interest would still consume vast amounts of time though.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
And you're saying it was very easy a few posts before.
Indeed, I should have phrased that differently. My point was that skills in different areas rarely overlap to the point where no training in the specific areas is required.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
It's hard to buy that Lutecia is just that good?
Can I buy Lutecia being talented? Sure, I already said as much. Will I buy that for the sole reason of making device construction something super difficult? No. We've seen kids building devices before, Lutecia is just one more. One with considerably more motivation and experience (as shown by the difference in performance between Teana and Subaru's "youtube devices" and Lutecia's Brunzel), but still not some genius who mysteriously mastered the super difficult art of device construction.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Then Fate must suck because after all the training and having and equally(if not more) powerfull device as her noobish opponent she constantly have problems with her.
Just as the wolkies lost against the both of them despite being veterans of countless warfields. Nanoha's power of friendship overcomes logic.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
No i'm attributing the accomplishement to both of them, a great mage meets a great device and a new legend is born. Denying Raising Heart of the great accomplishments and risks she taked with hardcore resolve is not fair. Nanoha isn't the only one fighting RH has been with her in all those battles(part of my dissapointment at the Strike Cannon xDU).
The only thing you could truly attribute to Raising Heart is her protecting Nanoha during her newbie days and her sustaining the cartridge upgrade. But things like "even when Nanoha's powers are A or A+ at first that also is nothing to sneeze at it"? No, that's purely Nanoha.

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Let's say is a common believe shared by many.
That is not an answer to my question. How do you figure armed devices have a more sophisticated AI compared to storage devices?

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Originally Posted by Akiyoshi View Post
Huh?
Oh, didn't you know? Caro's device is a storage device optimized for support.
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Old 2011-09-08, 16:44   Link #425
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Well, it looks like this is soon coming to an end, unless someone else intervenes xD

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
My argument has never been "Lutecia is untalented" it's always been "building a device isn't as hard as some seem to think." Lutecia was merely caught in the crossfire when she was used as an example.
Agreed

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Accepted. This does not change the fact that such an interest would still consume vast amounts of time though.
It depends, there are people who only need to read something once to get the knowledge, i meet some people like that during my middle and high school years.


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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Indeed, I should have phrased that differently. My point was that skills in different areas rarely overlap to the point where no training in the specific areas is required.
I'm not saying Lutecia achieve that without practice(altough i don't have concrete proof) she didn't reacted like a newbie or someoone saying "i will do what i can" to Corona, she's pridefull about her meister capabilities so i guess she has some practice and has already made some intelligent devices before Brunzel.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Can I buy Lutecia being talented? Sure, I already said as much. Will I buy that for the sole reason of making device construction something super difficult? No. We've seen kids building devices before, Lutecia is just one more. One with considerably more motivation and experience (as shown by the difference in performance between Teana and Subaru's "youtube devices" and Lutecia's Brunzel), but still not some genius who mysteriously mastered the super difficult art of device construction.
Apparently this is the middle ground i was talking about, i think i can agree with this.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Just as the wolkies lost against the both of them despite being veterans of countless warfields. Nanoha's power of friendship overcomes logic.
Yeah, no. The Wolkenritter never got properly "defeated" by Nanoha and Fate(they got utterly screwed by the Lieze Twins, tough) and in fact they held back most of the time(i said "most of the time" because i really doubt Vita was holding back when she delivered that savage beating to Nanoha). I'm not making this up, it's there on the Sound Stages.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
The only thing you could truly attribute to Raising Heart is her protecting Nanoha during her newbie days and her sustaining the cartridge upgrade. But things like "even when Nanoha's powers are A or A+ at first that also is nothing to sneeze at it"? No, that's purely Nanoha.
Which is no small feat, Fate is a very skilled mage assisted by a very powerfull(at that point in history) intelligent device. It's true that Nanoha grew up more after their first couple encounters but Raising Heart allowed her to reach said progress and keep her safe during said encounters against such a formidable opponent. I'm pretty sure Bardiche would be able to rip a new one to a a less qualified device at that point(that is, in the hands of a newbie). Nanoha's growth is also an accomplishement shared between her and Raising Heart. I'm pretty sure that Nanoha herself will adress that.

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That is not an answer to my question. How do you figure armed devices have a more sophisticated AI compared to storage devices?
I don't have a solid answer but also there's no solid assumption to think the contrary. The closest thing to an evidence is Laevatein and Graf Eisen Hot-Bloodeness(specially Eisen's). While not as expressive as RH and Bardiche, both have showed pride and will to support their masters, in the case of Laevatein, the belkan sword even chat with Signum and made compliments to Fate and Bardiche. Which is a far more expressive behavior than what Storage Devices have shown up to present. Still, they're on the middle because, even if they can question their master's actions like ID's do, they cannot refuse or act on their own in regards of their masters descicions.

Those are more or less the "reasons" for why they're considered in the middle between Storage and Intelligent Devices AI-wise.

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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Oh, didn't you know? Caro's device is a storage device optimized for support.
That explains a lot for it's lack of personality xDU

By the way you're making unfair comparissions here. Raising Heart and Bardiche are damn good devices at their time. StrikerS have a 10-year timeskip. Naturally technollogy rapidly advanced in such a large gap and common devices catched up tu RH's level as also being blessed by other benefits(safest mid-usable cartridge system, more advanced AI's, easier cooperation between ID's and SD's, Modern Armed Devices, etc...). The fact that Raising Heart and Bardiche remain usefull and among the best weapons even after all those years is enough proof of the great quality they have.
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Old 2011-09-08, 16:49   Link #426
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I can't help but feel the "Magic and Technology of MGLN" is a better thread for all of that.
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Old 2011-09-08, 16:52   Link #427
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Quote:
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My argument has never been "Lutecia is untalented" it's always been "building a device isn't as hard as some seem to think." Lutecia was merely caught in the crossfire when she was used as an example.
Why was "the difficulty of creating Intelligent Devices" considered an important point again?

What pet theory or interpretation was relying on it?

We can all agree that combat-grade Devices are more expensive because of the stronger parts required, giving a Device an Intelligence is also more expensive than mere Storage.

I think we all agree that they are unpopular because of their potential willfulness.

Those factors combined should be plenty enough to make combat-grade Intelligent Devices rare, and something of a major investment.


(But probably, an expert like Mari or Shari was needed to give the Caliburs the ability to auto-cast an IS like Wind Road.)


Quote:
That is not an answer to my question. How do you figure armed devices have a more sophisticated AI compared to storage devices?
They're capable of exchanging dialogue with their masters in response to their master's mood.

When it seemed like Signum might have hesistated, Laevantein called her on it. I think Vita and Graf Eisen had a similar exchange when they stormed the Saint's Cradle.

Clearly, these are more than mere programmed vocal responses, like Durandal's "Okay, Boss."


Quote:
Oh, didn't you know? Caro's device is a storage device optimized for support.
Something about how it forsakes most of the functions other Devices have* in order to focus entirely on boosting/adding to Caro's magical power-output.

* Like being reinforced to work as a melee weapon, or having various transformations, like Strada or even Klarwint.
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Old 2011-09-08, 16:58   Link #428
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Why was "the difficulty of creating Intelligent Devices" considered an important point again?

What pet theory or interpretation was relying on it?
I believe it spawned from a debate regarding the origins of Raising Heart.

Also, I must correct myself. Kerykeion is not a storage device, it is a boost device. It is still, however, noted to have a personality.
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Old 2011-09-08, 18:07   Link #429
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Building a car nowadays isn't hard. Go back a few hundred years, and it would be difficult.

In other words, because of the technology base present and the greater knowledge that can be obtained, constructing a device might not be too difficult to one who has the motivation to learn to do so. However, given the costs involved, which are generally reflective of both parts and labor involved, a good device would be fairly difficult to do.

Teana and Subaru made their own, too, and they were a far cry from the devices the mains have used. If we're going to bring Lu in as an example, then Teana and Subaru can be brought in as counter-examples. If making a device was so easy, Teana and Subaru should have made better ones.
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Old 2011-09-08, 18:39   Link #430
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Teana and Subaru made their own, too, and they were a far cry from the devices the mains have used. If we're going to bring Lu in as an example, then Teana and Subaru can be brought in as counter-examples. If making a device was so easy, Teana and Subaru should have made better ones.
I'd think not- Lu seems to have access to more money, as well as more time to do it seriously.

Subaru inherited her device, and Teana didn't seem to have the necessary money and down time to really work on hers.
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Old 2011-09-08, 18:41   Link #431
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Subaru inherited her device
We're talking about her old skates, not Revolver Knuckle.
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Old 2011-09-09, 01:37   Link #432
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Teana and Subaru made their own, too, and they were a far cry from the devices the mains have used. If we're going to bring Lu in as an example, then Teana and Subaru can be brought in as counter-examples. If making a device was so easy, Teana and Subaru should have made better ones.
Hence my PC building analogy. Teana and Subaru's devices were an example of "my first custom PC" whereas Lutecia is an example of "I do this stuff as a hobby and I know what I'm doing."
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Old 2011-12-05, 11:53   Link #433
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Assuming that Yuuno did get the TSAB's permission to go to Earth, as the movie manga presents it, do you suppose that the Bureau only gave the Scrya Clan permission to send ONE mage?
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Old 2011-12-05, 15:05   Link #434
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I imagine yuuno was the only one that asked
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Old 2011-12-05, 15:07   Link #435
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If they're really a clan of Archelogist it's not rare to think that the rest of the Scrya clan is busy with their own travels and investigations in other places of the cosmos xD.
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Old 2011-12-05, 15:11   Link #436
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We don't even know if the Scrya clan has more mages.
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Old 2011-12-05, 15:21   Link #437
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I didn't matter that much, we know it's a clan of archeologists and we know investigator =/= mage necessary. Being a magic user is a good advantage but with enough intellect, resources and determination everyone can be an investigator xD.

...just like someone without any magic at all can rise in ranks until becoming a General in the army of a Magical Society, isn't that right Regius?
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Old 2011-12-05, 15:51   Link #438
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We don't even know if the Scrya clan has more mages.
The Scrya standing around Yuuno in the flashback are all wearing barrier jackets strongly resembling Yuuno's own armor.

Besides, SOMEONE had to be teaching him, especially if the Clan spent most of their time searching and excavating away from inhabitated areas.

Also, why else would Yuuno's family let him go alone when they could help? Powerful Mage or not, even the Mid-Childans believe in supervising children doing dangerous tasks, especially away from home or hospitals.

And if their society still considers children too young to raise other children, they wouldn't let them waltz around an unadiminsteredmplanet when it's forbidden to reveal magic to the natives.
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Old 2011-12-05, 15:53   Link #439
itanshi1
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Plot makes no sense by itself eh
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Old 2011-12-05, 16:01   Link #440
Akiyoshi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by itanshi1 View Post
Plot makes no sense by itself eh
Yup, that's the sad-but-true answer, Season One was made on a whim and have a LOT of plot holes. When A's came out alot of inconsistencies staerted to rise and by the time StrikerS appeaed it becomes painfully obvious that Tsuzuki originally wasn't intended for the story to go past Nanoha and Fate tearjerking farewell at the bay.
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Last edited by Akiyoshi; 2011-12-05 at 16:40.
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