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Old 2004-10-25, 07:17   Link #41
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mememe
Why the hell do they think I want to see a nine-year-old naked?
Obviously you didn't notice that this show wasn't made just for your own taste :P
That show seems interesting IMO and since The Triad is subbing it, it's sure is gonna be pretty interesting to watch it Now got to find a way to download it... ^_^
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Old 2004-10-25, 20:02   Link #42
NekoYousei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secca
I already took some screenshots for ep 2 and 3, but in favor of Triad release, I'm gona post it around the same time Triad release the episodes. Also not to get too far ahead of everyone watching the fansub because right now it's already aired up to episode 4. ^^
Okay! Cool! ^__^ Thank you in advance!
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Old 2004-10-26, 05:58   Link #43
Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
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I'll offer up this video if it works.

http://personal.nbnet.nb.ca/dragnfly/Nanoha-test.avi
for people who can't download the anime for some reason. Now, this was thrown together and works fine on my system. It hasn't been tested on others.

I'm a huge Nanoha fan now but looking around on message boards I see quite a few posts are downright hilarious. Like this extract:

"**** you stupid CCS bastard. Nanoha could beat her bloody before her dumb loli ass would know what's going on."
followed by
"Are you some sort of **** stupid **** wanker? Sakura would ram that ferret through Nahoha's empty brain and drink her blood!"

Honestly, I didn't expect to see stuff like this. I'm not that big of a Mahou Shoujo fan but there have been some I've liked (Pretty Sammy for one) and I find Nanoha is just doing everything better than all the others I've watched.

And as for the transformation scene, I guess I just didn't notice her nakedness. I thought the staff forming and such was pretty cool though. Pretty much every transformation scene I can think of off the top of my head has nudity or simulated nudity though. Just shrug it off. It's not like it's there to turn you on.
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Old 2004-10-26, 07:24   Link #44
bluemist
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No way. They're like comparing apples to oranges. Both are delicious but it really depends on the 'fetish' of the person.

I may be biased, but CCS is miles better. I think they need to extend Nanoha to more than 13 episodes. Watching the first episode and seeing the extremely detailed character introductions to Nanoha, her family and friends, all those descriptions will go to waste. Those kinds of long descriptions are supposed to be for long series.
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Old 2004-10-26, 14:02   Link #45
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
I'll offer up this video if it works.
Interesting watching that clip frame-by-frame. The first cut is fully CG, and the skirt and legs that are shown running are cel-shaded....at first I thought they might just be hand-airbrushed for the semi-realistic lighting, but the motion blur on the legs at times looks too real to have just been arbitrarily added in, while an easy effect in CG, plus the background in both cuts is definitely 3D, so it would be easy to match the movement of the pavement with cel-shaded legs.

The second cut shown is a CG background (for the power lines) with a hand-drawn, 24 FPS (very rare in tv anime) run cycle on Nanoha (looks about 16 frames that repeat in the cycle, so it wouldn't have taken much time at least) that has been composited in, given a little bit of "bob" to match the leg motion, and a small blur added to give a sense of her moving in and out of the focus. The 24 FPS animation looks like it was all done by a key animator, so perhaps this is also the person that did the meticulously animated "Can I keep the ferret, Mom and Dad?" sequence as it has a lot of the same kind of detailed secondary motion in it.

The animation style consistency issues seem to only have been in episode 1 so far though (I've watched through 4 of the raws). The animation seems pretty standard TV animation after this point for the most part. In some ways I kinda miss the experimental stuff, it was very good, but also a little distracting from the show itself. Maybe it will show up more later though...?
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Old 2004-10-26, 22:37   Link #46
rothgar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
And as for the transformation scene, I guess I just didn't notice her nakedness. I thought the staff forming and such was pretty cool though. Pretty much every transformation scene I can think of off the top of my head has nudity or simulated nudity though. Just shrug it off. It's not like it's there to turn you on.
The way I see it, I think in this series it is there supposedly to turn you on, it's just that you specifically aren't getting turned on. This series is a spin-off of an ero-game, and that's where the fan base is gonna come in. It's aired at midnight, when no kids are watching. Of course not all naked transformations and nudity in other series are supposed to elicit a sexual response, but in this case, I think that what the makers of this series are aiming for. It's an adult parody of CCS and SM, and should not be compared to them. Like somebody else said, apples and oranges.
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Old 2004-10-26, 23:16   Link #47
daft27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu
Interesting watching that clip frame-by-frame. The first cut is fully CG, and the skirt and legs that are shown running are cel-shaded....at first I thought they might just be hand-airbrushed for the semi-realistic lighting, but the motion blur on the legs at times looks too real to have just been arbitrarily added in, while an easy effect in CG, plus the background in both cuts is definitely 3D, so it would be easy to match the movement of the pavement with cel-shaded legs.

The second cut shown is a CG background (for the power lines) with a hand-drawn, 24 FPS (very rare in tv anime) run cycle on Nanoha (looks about 16 frames that repeat in the cycle, so it wouldn't have taken much time at least) that has been composited in, given a little bit of "bob" to match the leg motion, and a small blur added to give a sense of her moving in and out of the focus. The 24 FPS animation looks like it was all done by a key animator, so perhaps this is also the person that did the meticulously animated "Can I keep the ferret, Mom and Dad?" sequence as it has a lot of the same kind of detailed secondary motion in it.

The animation style consistency issues seem to only have been in episode 1 so far though (I've watched through 4 of the raws). The animation seems pretty standard TV animation after this point for the most part. In some ways I kinda miss the experimental stuff, it was very good, but also a little distracting from the show itself. Maybe it will show up more later though...?
Excellent analysis.
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Old 2004-10-27, 06:43   Link #48
Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
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Ayu-Ayu, that's pretty good work. I too looked over the video carefully (although I wish I had a pure source. The video is only exported at 24fps because that's what the source video was at)

That's an intelligent view, Rothgar. It's against my better judgement but I'll watch through the episodes I have (raws of this I've noticed are relatively difficult to find in comparisson) and specifically look for.... Nanoha.... *ulp* fanservice...

Christ I can't believe I just said that.

Well, in the good news I managed to get a bunch of people at work addicted to the music
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Old 2004-10-28, 09:05   Link #49
Thany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
That's an intelligent view, Rothgar. It's against my better judgement but I'll watch through the episodes I have (raws of this I've noticed are relatively difficult to find in comparisson) and specifically look for.... Nanoha.... *ulp* fanservice...
I just watched the show yesterday and all what I have to say is that this show isn't ecchi.
The transformation is just like you could see it in Sailor Moon, etc.
People who say that this is disturbing fanservice obviously didn't watch much Mahou Shoujo animes. This is just a basic transformation which might be taken badly if you are really very sensitive, but it's not like it were a show like Rizelmine :P
Of course, I just watched one episode, it could change, but I don't think it is going to be some sort of ecchi show :P
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Old 2004-10-28, 09:27   Link #50
mechazawa
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So what do you all think is the TRUE SPELLING of "Reijingu Hahto"?

a. "Raising Heart"
b. "Rising Heart" (I think this would be "Raijingu Hahto" though)
c. "Raging Heart"
d. any other one

Oh, please call Nanoha "my master," Reijingu Hahto!
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Old 2004-10-28, 11:10   Link #51
Dragosmore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mechazawa
So what do you all think is the TRUE SPELLING of "Reijingu Hahto"?

a. "Raising Heart"
b. "Rising Heart" (I think this would be "Raijingu Hahto" though)
c. "Raging Heart"
d. any other one

Oh, please call Nanoha "my master," Reijingu Hahto!
It's most definitely Raging Heart. Raging Heart is the name of Nanoha's staff which is basically that red jewel thing~ When you meet Fate in episode four, you'll find out Fate's is called Bardiche (like the type of axe)
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Old 2004-10-28, 13:29   Link #52
Ayu-ayu
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Thanks, Daft27, Dragnfly. I like to look for stuff like that in shows. It really amazes me what kind of subtle stuff folks are doing in post production on anime these days now that everything's digital instead of cel.

Regarding the ecchi factor, it is kind of interesting that people have less issue with standard direct-to-nude style henshin sequences, but by adding undergarments into the equation it suddenly becomes indecent, a virtual striptease (along the lines Go Nagai originally created the Honey "Flash" for in the first place, ironically). Thany makes a good point; while I think it is clear that the loli fanservice is added in all too arbitrarily (much like the stuff back in the Creamy Mami days with the long nude bath scenes and panchira*), it's an added and unneccessary gimick that has nothing to do with what the show's actually about. Were this an ecchi-oriented series, we'd probably get Aika-style upskirt detailed panchira in every other action shot...bleh.

As for it changing or getting worse, well the story gets more interesting, the henshin stays the same, and there is one brief pajama-changing scene in ep 3 that will probably get attributed as more loli voyeurism (but somewhat amusing at Yuno's expense). Other than that, nothing more ecchi than that in the first 4 episodes.


(*panty flashes)
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Old 2004-10-28, 14:44   Link #53
LordBrian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu
Other than that, nothing more ecchi than that in the first 4 episodes.
People will always read far too much into certain things, and disagree with you no matter how reasonable an argument you make. For example, people will take exception to the following things in the first 4 episodes, not counting the pedo changing scene: bathtime fun with father/daughter, heavy-handed incest between Kyouya/Miyuki, and bestial fondling involving Nanoha's friends and the ferret!

If someone really wants to be offended, they will search long and hard to stuff to be offended over...whether or not it actually exists in the show intentionally. ;)
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Old 2004-10-28, 17:11   Link #54
Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
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Well said, Brian.

I just don't see much different in this show from other magical girl shows assides from content.
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Old 2004-10-28, 17:40   Link #55
rothgar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
Well said, Brian.

I just don't see much different in this show from other magical girl shows assides from content.
The biggest difference is japanese target audience, which in nanoha's case is ero-game players. I don't think it's a very ecchi show, but you have to wonder about about the extra panty shots, changing scene, etc. You can't compare a show aired today to a show like Creamy Mami that aired 20 years ago. Stuff like panties and school sailor uniforms have became a lot more sexualized and "naughty" since then. In the early 80's you couldn't buy used school girl panties in vending machines like you could in Japan until it was made illegal recently. I can't think of one recent mahou shoujo series for kids right now that shows panties. The whole nekid henshin scene is almost a whole different case, as weird as that sounds. Scenes like these have become so normal, it's not considered that naughty. There are certain situations where nudity in Japanese society is acceptable. If you are not getting turned on by this series, then more power to you. I'm just saying that the intent is there. Of course this is all my humble opinion.
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Old 2004-10-28, 18:51   Link #56
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rothgar
The biggest difference is japanese target audience, which in nanoha's case is ero-game players. I don't think it's a very ecchi show, but you have to wonder about about the extra panty shots, changing scene, etc. You can't compare a show aired today to a show like Creamy Mami that aired 20 years ago. Stuff like panties and school sailor uniforms have became a lot more sexualized and "naughty" since then. In the early 80's you couldn't buy used school girl panties in vending machines like you could in Japan until it was made illegal recently. I can't think of one recent mahou shoujo series for kids right now that shows panties. The whole nekid henshin scene is almost a whole different case, as weird as that sounds. Scenes like these have become so normal, it's not considered that naughty. There are certain situations where nudity in Japanese society is acceptable. If you are not getting turned on by this series, then more power to you. I'm just saying that the intent is there. Of course this is all my humble opinion.
I agree with your main points, but disagree on the part about anime 20 years ago being more "innocent", as an anime fan back then myself, I would say that the sailor fuku and panchira were already quite sexualized for some time already even by that point (perhaps in some ways more so, I think the whole "maid" thing of recent years was meant as a surrogate after the seifuku fetish got too much flak), enough so to get made fun of in early Urusei Yatsura (around '83), and only a bit later in the early H-anime Cream Lemon Pop Chaser around '85 and then brought to a head in Project A-ko in '86 (note also the Mami parody in A-ko...of course, Moriyama worked before with Studio Pierrot). Go Nagai's 1970's Harenchi Gakuen manga (and later contemporaries) was all over seifuku fanservice, too, come to think.

The thing was, anime wasn't as diverse in the earlier 80's, and otaku choices of stuff to watch was more limited in the range of material. The staff (mostly male) on shows like Mami and later Emi took advantage of both the more permissive views then toward bath-time nudity and panchira (before a wave of PTA-related complaints) to cater to their partial male, loli, otaku audience...Emi actually made something of a production out of the panchira, IIRC. It was actually the early 80's that encouraged what was perhaps some of the first loli-themed fan-made parodies of a lot of the magical girl stuff. Heck even Daicon III features a loli-patterned schoolgirl heroine ("upgraded" in Daicon IV to Sadamoto's famous bunny girl). And actually there was enough loli-themed "service" in those old shows to get some PTA-related attention (and that's WHY you don't see that kind of stuff in kid's shows as much these days, with a few exceptions--Gakkou no Kaidan's episodic panchira--harassment?--come to mind there).

Anyway, I agree on your other points. I wonder on the ero-game thing though; Nanoha is a spin off of the non-ecchi Triangle Hearts OVA (as opposed to the earlier ecchi one)...was the game that corresponded to that more recent OVA ero though? I don't know much about the origins beyond the OVA stuff. Did Nanoha or her siblings ever appear in an H title?

One other point, and that is the Japanese (aside from a conservative minority) do not see sexuality itself with quite the same taboos and stigma as puritanical westerners (cough, Americans, cough) do...for example, Sailor Moon creator Naoko Takeuchi's first complaint upon seeing the US production was that "they removed much of the sexual imagery", knowing full well her target demographic was pre- and early adolescent girls...
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Old 2004-10-28, 19:47   Link #57
rothgar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayu-ayu
Anyway, I agree on your other points. I wonder on the ero-game thing though; Nanoha is a spin off of the non-ecchi Triangle Hearts OVA (as opposed to the earlier ecchi one)...was the game that corresponded to that more recent OVA ero though? I don't know much about the origins beyond the OVA stuff. Did Nanoha or her siblings ever appear in an H title?
From what I understand, Nanoha first appeared in the 3rd Triangle Hearts game. A spin-off fan disk featuring Mahou Shoujo Nanoha had some ero scenes with an older Nanoha.
That was an interesting read about Mami, tho. I didn't know PTAs were so vigilant back then.
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Old 2004-10-29, 00:13   Link #58
Maceart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragosmore
You all disgust me :P Just because of the transformation sequence, you're damning the series. The plot is actually quite good when you actually learn of things on whats going on come episode 2 and the art is amazingly awesome. I wouldn't throw it away so fast.
yes. nanoha seems to be a cream of the crop mahou shojo (most of the times these shows are like a train wrech waiting to happen), but i must admit this one has potential.

Of course, the best anime ever, and prolly the only mahou shojo i'll ever see, is Ojamajo doremi with it's 200+ episodes of awesomeness
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Old 2004-10-29, 01:19   Link #59
Ayu-ayu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rothgar
From what I understand, Nanoha first appeared in the 3rd Triangle Hearts game. A spin-off fan disk featuring Mahou Shoujo Nanoha had some ero scenes with an older Nanoha.
That was an interesting read about Mami, tho. I didn't know PTAs were so vigilant back then.
Ah, I see, I thought it might be something like that. Weren't her parents in the second one, or is that just a totally different continuity...?

Yeah, actually Go Nagai ran REALLY afoul with them in the late 70's (he even made them into the ultimate villians in Harenchi Gakuen, IIRC), too, and actually had his work banned from TV for quite some time due to "violent and indecent material" (that's why his stuff dried up in animation until the Devilman OVA). @_@ I don't think Mami in itself was seen as a real problem, btw, it's more that it just aired before the bout of stuff that did get attention during the time and reflects what was acceptible to show before that point.

It comes and goes...there was waves of censorship and loosening of censorship through the 90's too (TV Tokyo being the most guilty after the Pokemon incident of abusing control over the shows and a number of creators protested).
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Old 2004-10-29, 07:20   Link #60
Dragnfly@Gamefaqs
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And again Aya impresses. It's good to see there are older otaku here too.

I remember when my girlfriend and I were watching Iczillion (not exactly old-old but it was down there) and she was totally agast at the transformation scenes. I explained that kind of thing was very common in anime and only weirdos would freezeframe (on jumpy VHS) to get some joy out of it. She was a huge sailor moon fan and hadn't made it up to the final episodes yet but when she did she was pretty cool with it. I can't help but think it might have been cushioned by the earlier viewings of transformation scenes.

Oh, and I did review a few episodes of Nanoha with some of my friends. I'll just assign each a number and report their opinions.
1- 22 years old, female otaku for +\- 5 yrs. Thought it was great. Didn't seem to notice the fanservice
2-19 yrs old, male otaku for +\- 10 yrs. Thought it was great. didn't seem to notice the fan service
3-24 yrs old, male otaku for +\- 15 yrs. Thought it was great. Made it clear the loli stuff freaked him out
4-24 yrs old, male otaku for +\- 7 yrs. Thought it was great. Looked away when the panties came off and compalined about it for a long time.
5-25 yrs old, male otaku for +/- 15 yrs. Myself. Love the show. I noticed but didn't think anything of it.

Two friends were omitted because they collect Gunslinger Girl doujin and such anyway.

Although I think we broke #4 somehow as he started obsessing a bit too much on "how unrealistic it is for a 9-year-old to be built like that".

We did however learn that a lot of various groups can like Nanoha So so far my experiment is giving far from workable results
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