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Old 2007-01-17, 17:05   Link #1261
Marsala
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
She didn't reject the idea. She asked why. Reread that passage if you must, but try to get the quote correct next time.
"Is he saying that I'm not attractive? That can't be!" Eri was very close to the true reason but somehow didn't actually consider the truth: that Harima loves Tenma. Since it is such an obvious conclusion to draw, I suggested that Eri was in a form of denial about the issue.

Quote:
I wasn't talking about her responses. Refer back to that first scene where Eri wavers.

From Eri's standpoint, Tenma was the one who damaged the relationship.

It really doesn't matter what any of us think "ought" to happen. Eri has wavered.
Maybe if Eri had paused before she wrote her reply, that would have been wavering. But she didn't hesitate at all and only looked sour after sending the reply. Also, Eri's pause before entering the Mercado wasn't wavering in her stance against Tenma. Approaching Harima has nothing to do with being cold to Tenma.

Quote:
Not having watched fireworks with a girl before =/= having watched fireworks with a boy before. Why don't you start out by finding out a part of the manga where it says that Eri has been out on lots of dates?
Chapter 58, page 4. Eri says that she has been on a couple of dates over the summer. She also goes on a date with a boy in chapter 93. It's clear that Eri has been on "lots" (at least relative to Tenma and Mikoto) of dates that didn't mean anything to her.
Quote:
So... what does being less timid around Harima have to do with arrogance?
Eri is being less timid not because of confidence in herself but because she doesn't want to lose to Tenma. Wanting to beat a rival is a bad reason to pursue love.
Quote:
You might want to finish off this sentence.
Harima has recently been becoming less abrupt with Eri, at least when he is not in a stressful situation. Her new approach, however, caused him to recognize that she wasn't acting like herself; Harima then asked what she wanted. Harima was disturbed by her approach, instead of being slightly charmed as in chapter 197.

Quote:
How did you decide that this would happen, again?
I'm just guessing that Harima would panic if Eri suddenly and obviously came onto him and asked him to stay the night in a flirtatious way. Of course, he might still have been too dense to get it.
Quote:
That still doesn't mean that she's doing it to get guys. There's a difference between feeling attractive and going with the intent of capturing someone's interest.
She flat out said that doing her hair was worthless if she couldn't show it off to the guys! That's definitely going with the intent of capturing their interests.

Quote:
But that scene still has nothing to do with flirting.
OK, it is off subject.
Quote:
Actually, Eri doesn't know who initiated this. She suspects Tenma, at the moment.
Then she really doesn't understand Tenma at all.
Quote:
I sense a bit of a double standard here. What about Harima's interference in Tenma's relationship with Karasuma? He's known about the relationship for nearly 200 chapters now, and all the while he's been trying to get inbetween. Perhaps you should be addressing that first?
Harima does try to interfere and usually pays the price for it, but he has also acted very unselfishly, by giving Tenma genuine advice on a birthday present for Karasuma and by giving her flowers in Karasuma's name to cheer her up. I can't imagine Eri, as she is now, unselfishly helping Harima and Tenma's relationship.
Quote:
Isn't the simplest explanation the one supported by the anime? Having Eri randomly show interest in Karasuma for a single chapter and then never talk to him again strikes me as much more convoluted of a scheme.
She also showed a bit of interest in Karasuma in her very first appearance. At the time, Eri was supposed to be very interested in flirting with all (well, most) of the boys and that was just part of her character. The anime changed that scene by having Tenma hesitate before she went for the seat and by giving Eri a different motivation.
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Old 2007-01-17, 18:52   Link #1262
OMGItsTehSARS
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Let's ask KJ what reeeallly is happening...rather than trying to justify speculations as fact

OH WAIT...we can't.
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Old 2007-01-18, 02:39   Link #1263
ichigoismyhomie
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hm.......how bout some spoiler for next chapter? i can't get enough of eri's cold shoulder for tenma. altough i feel sorry for tenma, I love how the conflict escalate between the two.
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Old 2007-01-18, 08:51   Link #1264
kenjiharima
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Quote:
Originally Posted by biomy View Post
ben affleck would be so disappointed

in america
Though Tougo looks more like Steven Seagal

Either way I don't like what's happening to Tenma and Eri's friendship. I wish the other two namely Mikoto and Akira intervine between the situation and clear up this misunderstanding. poor Tenma-chan...
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Old 2007-01-18, 11:25   Link #1265
risingstar3110
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Haha it look so lively here that i have to register an account to post something

It was quite quiet in Wannabe recentlybecause everyone agree with each other so much, have less debate for me to join in ^_^. Marsala and some others want to volunteer going there and post your opinion about chapter 208? It will ignite some cool discussion there.

I admit i am EFC so what i say in defend Eri is less weight but gotta try anyway.

Firstly i believe some people said the scene Eri recall tenma's image before enter the cafe in chapter 208 showed Eri's true attempt in winning Harima's heart is actually because her pride can't allow her to lose Tenma. Have a point there, but i do not agree. Tenma's image is Eri's motivation to enter the cafe and invite Harima to the Oyster bar, NOT her motivation to win Harima's heart. We all know that she interest in Harima when he in everyone's eyes still a single deliquent. So if you think Harima is trophy for her to prove her's seduce ability, you might think again now
Let me give out a theory that no1 mentioned before. Remember Eri said that Harima has been there at night quite a lot of time recently. Doesn't it also mean that Eri was there MANY times before when harima doing his manga? And the reason that only this time she stepped in the bar and ask him for the promise was because Tenma's image and her thought of losing the one she love to her friend?

Now let me counter the attack from those who believe Eri's pride took over her concsious for the past chapter? Because rather than that i will say this chapter (208)Eri swallowed her pride to follow her love desire.
People often think that Eri's "seduced" smile was the prove that she have to win Harima from Tenma by anyway she can. Read her thought again just before she asked him out : "At this situation, i have to be forceful no matter how it make me look". Can't you see that her angel conscious won over this time (if you read 198). She alway act cool in front of others, she couldn't even admit her love to Harima with her three best friend , but this time she openly invite Harima's out for the dinner. You still think this is her FAKE'smile compare to her normal REAL action or is it her REAL feeling for once took over the FAKE pride that she always publicly act ?

That's for Eri's defense atm, a direct attack to Odou followers now.
If you think that Eri's love to Harima contain no sacrifice like what harima did......ummm......horse battle.... Kyoto Arc and a bunches of times when she sacrificed her pride (which is always important to her) just so she can be closer to him.

For Harima's tunnel vision? Harima's eyes mostly only in Tenma from the start till now. Confirmed. Tenma is the first girl he was with and loved. Confirmed. Harima fell for Tenma because she confessed then threw him to the ground. Also Confirmed . Don't this recall you about something that mentioned in one of the first few chapters? ..."Suspension Bridge effect " .... and it actually work for almost every love at first sight's case. Love is feeling so it can be made up by your brain easily. If you are not around with girl much, the nervous and faster heart beats also can cause you to fall in love with a random girl even if she is not your type. Certainly this also may happen to Tenma and it may change her thought from Karasuma to Harima that way (like in Harima'smanga, anime season 1, chapter 26) BUT there was no mention about that before so it will rather have more chance to happen in Harima's case.

If odou is final ending: Tenma and Eri 's relationship will not be the same anymore, Tenma will be trouble because Yakumo; once loved Harima and now he is her sister's boyfriend; the whole 200+ chapters will, after so many things happen, end up the same with what people predict after reading the first few chapters.

I will surprised me if no1 come up with the new post against me later . However if you read every words in my post respectfully like i did to everyone post, even when you do not admit it loudly, you may look at Eri in a diffrent way now =P.

PS: the relationship between Eri and Tenma do not worry me even a bit. Eri is the first one Tenma turn to always, along the whole series, and like an older sister to Tenma. When respectfully, Eri was always act cool in front of Tenma, but even not directly, always worry and along with others helping Tenma when Tenma in bad situation. If you have a brother as a close friend and always fight with him, you will see this is quite normal, even for "Do whatever you want" message

EDIT:damn i post too long again, just realise

Last edited by risingstar3110; 2007-01-18 at 11:35.
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Old 2007-01-18, 13:22   Link #1266
Swampstorm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
"Is he saying that I'm not attractive? That can't be!" Eri was very close to the true reason but somehow didn't actually consider the truth: that Harima loves Tenma. Since it is such an obvious conclusion to draw, I suggested that Eri was in a form of denial about the issue.
Sometimes, certain things are more obvious to the audience than they are to the characters (also known as dramatic irony). It should be fairly clear, especially from the chapter 203 where Eri tries to imitate Tenma, that Eri recognizes that Harima is attracted to Tenma. Eri is trying to figure out why - is he attracted to her on his own, or is it something that Tenma is doing, either conciously or unconciously, to attract him? Up until Ch.207, Eri believed that it was something that Tenma was unconciously doing, which is why Eri makes that comment in 204 ("Tenma, I just don't know what to do with you - don't you know what I'm going through?"). In 208, Eri believes that it is something that Tenma is conciously doing ("I won't lose to you.")

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Maybe if Eri had paused before she wrote her reply, that would have been wavering. But she didn't hesitate at all and only looked sour after sending the reply. Also, Eri's pause before entering the Mercado wasn't wavering in her stance against Tenma. Approaching Harima has nothing to do with being cold to Tenma.
Well, you described that expression yourself as one of "great hurt". That's not the same thing as being sour. Now, if Eri didn't care, then she would have moved on immediately after sending the message. The fact is, however, that after sending it, she paused and showed that she was hurt greatly - which shows that she does care deeply about the rift that's developed.

You're right. Approaching Harima has nothing to do with her situation with Tenma. That's why the vision of Tenma, and the feelings of jitteriness that accompany it, have absolutely nothing to do with Harima and the situation in the cafe. I'm glad you can finally concede that much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Chapter 58, page 4. Eri says that she has been on a couple of dates over the summer. She also goes on a date with a boy in chapter 93. It's clear that Eri has been on "lots" (at least relative to Tenma and Mikoto) of dates that didn't mean anything to her.
Actually, Tenma herself says that she's been on two dates during the summer, on that same page.

With Eri, you need to take extra care with what she says, especially when it's something concerning her image. Do you really think that she would really tell her friends if she didn't go on any dates, especially when they are all talking about the dates that they went on?

Of course, if you want to assume that she's telling the truth here, doesn't a couple dates in four months strike you as a rather low number, for a popular girl who's in high school? Let's put aside the fact that Tenma herself has had the same amount of dates in that time. How many offers would Eri had to have turned down during that time period? What if, as with Harima (Ep.10) and the two confessions that she recieves during the flashback with Mikoto (Ep.15 S1), Eri was feeling sympathetic and wanted to find a way to let some of those guys down easily? How does this relate to whether or not she has deep or superficial relationships? We've seen how she handles her friendships and her relationship with Harima - shouldn't that settle the question rather easily?

If Eri is going on a date with a guy on Ch.93, then doesn't it strike you as rather odd that she asks the other girls to come along with her, as well? I certainly hope that you don't expect girls to completely avoid having any interactions with guys outside of dating them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Eri is being less timid not because of confidence in herself but because she doesn't want to lose to Tenma. Wanting to beat a rival is a bad reason to pursue love.
In Ch.152, we see a character called Employee B falling for a character called Employee A. Employee B isn't competing for Employee A's affections against a rival - she sees his determination and drive to satisfy his dreams in the face of adversity, and finds him attractive. It doesn't matter that Employee A is actually Harima and Employee B is actually Eri - what does matter is that it clearly demonstrates that Eri's love for Harima is not based on competition, and is not dependant on his identity as "Harima" - she loves him for the essential characteristics that make him who he is (something that's lacking in Harima's pursuit of Tenma, where he pursues Tenma because she is "Tenma", often ignoring the real girl's feelings in favour of that of the imaginary version that he's constructed in his mind).

There's no fear here that Eri is pursuing love for the sake of beating a rival. She wants to be with Harima because she loves Harima. The rivalry is relevant only insofar as it interferes with her ability to build her relationship with him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Harima has recently been becoming less abrupt with Eri, at least when he is not in a stressful situation. Her new approach, however, caused him to recognize that she wasn't acting like herself; Harima then asked what she wanted. Harima was disturbed by her approach, instead of being slightly charmed as in chapter 197.
Actually, he was surprised that she was being so nice to him. If you think back to Ch.152, he thought the same thing when they were staying at the temple for the night. Harima usually expects the worst from Eri, because they're often fighting.

If he was disturbed or otherwise repulsed by her behavior, wouldn't it make more sense for him not to tell her that he wanted to go with her to the opening?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
I'm just guessing that Harima would panic if Eri suddenly and obviously came onto him and asked him to stay the night in a flirtatious way. Of course, he might still have been too dense to get it.
You're right - you are guessing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
She flat out said that doing her hair was worthless if she couldn't show it off to the guys! That's definitely going with the intent of capturing their interests.
It would be a fairly simple concept to accept if you didn't assume that flirting is done entirely for the purpose of gaining someone's romantic interest. Often enough, flirting, and dressing up attractively, is something done for fun. Nowhere does that statement imply that Eri does her hair to get guys to date her.

It's just that scene at the pool (Ch.36), where Tenma announces to Nara that she wants to be hit on and asked out, only to promptly reject him when he actually does. Now, you might choose to characterize Tenma and Eri as being superficial for enjoying to flirt and enjoying to recieve attention from guys, but it's actually very natural behaviour. At the end of the day, both girls care deeply for their friends and are always quick to help out in times of trouble, and both girls pour their hearts and souls into their respective relationships with the guys they love.

If guys can freely socialize with girls without being considered superficial, then shouldn't the reverse also be true? Even if you take a character like Yakumo, her dialogues with the ghost suggest that her inability to socialize with guys is a weakness, rather than a sign of depth ("Do you really hate men?"). In my opinion, it is highly unfair to call either Tenma or Eri superficial, simply for showing themselves to be extroverted and for showing themselves to have social skills - especially when society tends to value those qualities over their opposites.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Then she really doesn't understand Tenma at all.
Nobody understands Tenma, with the possible exception of Karasuma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Harima does try to interfere and usually pays the price for it, but he has also acted very unselfishly, by giving Tenma genuine advice on a birthday present for Karasuma and by giving her flowers in Karasuma's name to cheer her up. I can't imagine Eri, as she is now, unselfishly helping Harima and Tenma's relationship.
Harima isn't in a relationship with Tenma, unlike Tenma, who is in a relationship with Karasuma. Note, though, that when Eri determined that Yakumo was dating Harima during the play, she walked off immediately, telling Yakumo that she had better follow through (with the kiss). Remember that this is the rival who destroyed her gift to Harima, ruined her play, and made a fool of Eri in front of the school - quite possibly the most courageous act that we've seen in the story, thus far. Harima's acts of atonement just don't measure up. Especially given that Eri didn't sabotage anything in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
She also showed a bit of interest in Karasuma in her very first appearance. At the time, Eri was supposed to be very interested in flirting with all (well, most) of the boys and that was just part of her character. The anime changed that scene by having Tenma hesitate before she went for the seat and by giving Eri a different motivation.
Ah. Greeting Karasuma as he passes by is her way of showing a romantic interest in him, you say? Wouldn't that also imply that Tenma was showing a romantic interest in Harima every time she greeted him? The same would hold true for Mikoto. Come to think of it, it looks like all the guys in School Rumble must be hit on by all the girls, every day.

That sounds about right.

Oh, and without knowing what KJ is thinking, there is little that we can say on what any given character was "supposed" to be. Oudou was "supposed to" be the correct path. Then again, so was True Oudou.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110
I admit i am EFC so what i say in defend Eri is less weight but gotta try anyway.
No, it doesn't. From what I've seen, most of the attempts to blame Eri arise from a desire to justify one of the alternate pairings (ie. Eri is evil, therefore we need not empathize with her hardships). By that standard, those comments would have less weight as well, by virtue of the people that make them. Your reasoning alone is what determines the strength of your argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110
Let me give out a theory that no1 mentioned before. Remember Eri said that Harima has been there at night quite a lot of time recently. Doesn't it also mean that Eri was there MANY times before when harima doing his manga? And the reason that only this time she stepped in the bar and ask him for the promise was because Tenma's image and her thought of losing the one she love to her friend?
Well, if that is the case, it also proves that Eri now believes that Tenma actively competing for Harima, where she didn't before. Good observation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110
People often think that Eri's "seduced" smile was the prove that she have to win Harima from Tenma by anyway she can.
Where seduction, of course, is the magical art by which you can force a person to fall in love with you against their will. I think part of the reason why that debate started about whether or not Eri spends time on her hair "just to attract guys" and whether or not Eri goes large number of dates is for this very reason - the stigma attached to "seduction". Let's re-examine some quotes:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Eri's pursuit of Harima was appealing up until now because of the great vulnerability she showed; as even Harima acknowledged, she had her cute moments, too. (Emphasis Added)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Eri's current approach to Harima is not going to work, though. She's pursuing him in the same manner that she pursued all of her previous, shallow relationships, and she is now thinking of it as a contest with Tenma.
That last quote in particular does carry a certain sense of "She's going to try to seduce him like she did all those other poor saps, but her evil plot cannot succeed!" You can't seduce others. You can only encourage them to seduce themselves - and only if they so desire. A lot of the line of discussion that followed from those quotes could have been averted simply by recognizing that girls, like guys, have every right to actively initiate romantic relationships rather than sitting around being "vulnerable" (ie. passive and helpless), as was suggested earlier.
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Last edited by Swampstorm; 2007-01-18 at 15:20.
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Old 2007-01-18, 21:43   Link #1267
Slim_Ghost
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Man, SR is getting boring. Where's the humor?I have a feeling that this manga is getting more mushy-mushy romantic than gut-bursting funnier.

The "ZOMG I ALMOST MANAGED TO CONFESS STUPID ME!"-ish 'jokes' have been done to death. I hope KJ comes up with something suprising and original this time.
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Old 2007-01-18, 23:20   Link #1268
Marsala
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Well, this is going to be a monster post, and my last one before reading 209 on Saturday (for which I will hopefully muster the willpower to stay spoiler-free). Why do I keep getting involved in shipping debates?

Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Haha it look so lively here that i have to register an account to post something

It was quite quiet in Wannabe recentlybecause everyone agree with each other so much, have less debate for me to join in ^_^. Marsala and some others want to volunteer going there and post your opinion about chapter 208? It will ignite some cool discussion there.
Thank you for the invitation, but I'm already posting at StopTazmo a little and debating on three forums at once would be too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
I admit i am EFC so what i say in defend Eri is less weight but gotta try anyway.

Firstly i believe some people said the scene Eri recall tenma's image before enter the cafe in chapter 208 showed Eri's true attempt in winning Harima's heart is actually because her pride can't allow her to lose Tenma. Have a point there, but i do not agree. Tenma's image is Eri's motivation to enter the cafe and invite Harima to the Oyster bar, NOT her motivation to win Harima's heart. We all know that she interest in Harima when he in everyone's eyes still a single deliquent. So if you think Harima is trophy for her to prove her's seduce ability, you might think again now
Let me give out a theory that no1 mentioned before. Remember Eri said that Harima has been there at night quite a lot of time recently. Doesn't it also mean that Eri was there MANY times before when harima doing his manga? And the reason that only this time she stepped in the bar and ask him for the promise was because Tenma's image and her thought of losing the one she love to her friend?
But doesn't that show that Eri is now motivated by her desire not to lose, instead of her desire to be together with Harima? She shouldn't be thinking of Tenma at all as she approaches Harima. As for Eri knowing where Harima was, well, either she's secretly stalking him or she visits the popular Mercado in the evenings frequently and thus sees him there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
Now let me counter the attack from those who believe Eri's pride took over her concsious for the past chapter? Because rather than that i will say this chapter (208)Eri swallowed her pride to follow her love desire.
People often think that Eri's "seduced" smile was the prove that she have to win Harima from Tenma by anyway she can. Read her thought again just before she asked him out : "At this situation, i have to be forceful no matter how it make me look". Can't you see that her angel conscious won over this time (if you read 198). She alway act cool in front of others, she couldn't even admit her love to Harima with her three best friend , but this time she openly invite Harima's out for the dinner. You still think this is her FAKE'smile compare to her normal REAL action or is it her REAL feeling for once took over the FAKE pride that she always publicly act ?
I think we saw Eri's real feelings in 196-198 and especially in 204 when she asked Harima to the oyster bar the first time: nervous but sincere. She swallowed her pride and took "one step forward", as the sidetext said. Now, however, Eri's approach has changed because she sees it as a battle between herself and Tenma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
That's for Eri's defense atm, a direct attack to Odou followers now.
If you think that Eri's love to Harima contain no sacrifice like what harima did......ummm......horse battle.... Kyoto Arc and a bunches of times when she sacrificed her pride (which is always important to her) just so she can be closer to him.
It has been good that Eri has sacrificed her pride to help Harima or try to get closer to him. However, her pride also has motivated her to push harder: because of her pride, she confronted Tae, dueled Yakumo figuratively and literally, and is now developing a rift with Tenma.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
For Harima's tunnel vision? Harima's eyes mostly only in Tenma from the start till now. Confirmed. Tenma is the first girl he was with and loved. Confirmed. Harima fell for Tenma because she confessed then threw him to the ground. Also Confirmed . Don't this recall you about something that mentioned in one of the first few chapters? ..."Suspension Bridge effect " .... and it actually work for almost every love at first sight's case. Love is feeling so it can be made up by your brain easily. If you are not around with girl much, the nervous and faster heart beats also can cause you to fall in love with a random girl even if she is not your type. Certainly this also may happen to Tenma and it may change her thought from Karasuma to Harima that way (like in Harima'smanga, anime season 1, chapter 26) BUT there was no mention about that before so it will rather have more chance to happen in Harima's case.
If Harima's love for Tenma was based only on the Suspension Bridge effect, it wouldn't be so strong. We have seen many instances of how similar they are in personality, and Yakumo, the person who knows both of them the best, believes in their compatibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
If odou is final ending: Tenma and Eri 's relationship will not be the same anymore, Tenma will be trouble because Yakumo; once loved Harima and now he is her sister's boyfriend; the whole 200+ chapters will, after so many things happen, end up the same with what people predict after reading the first few chapters.
If Oudou is the final ending, Tenma and Eri will resolve their differences before the end. In fact, I expect that Eri would be the one to give Harima and Tenma the last little push. Yakumo has already thrown her support behind Oudou; perhaps she may wish it could have been different deep down, but we have already seen her happy ending with Sara. Finally, Harima and Tenma winding up together would be predictable, but romantic comedies aren't supposed to be mystery stories. In most romantic comedies, it's clear from the beginning that the male and female leads will wind up with each other; the fun comes from watching how it happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
I will surprised me if no1 come up with the new post against me later . However if you read every words in my post respectfully like i did to everyone post, even when you do not admit it loudly, you may look at Eri in a diffrent way now =P.

PS: the relationship between Eri and Tenma do not worry me even a bit. Eri is the first one Tenma turn to always, along the whole series, and like an older sister to Tenma. When respectfully, Eri was always act cool in front of Tenma, but even not directly, always worry and along with others helping Tenma when Tenma in bad situation. If you have a brother as a close friend and always fight with him, you will see this is quite normal, even for "Do whatever you want" message

EDIT:damn i post too long again, just realise
I believe that Eri and Tenma will make up in the end, but the Harima issue is enormous. Even if Harima began going out with Eri immediately, I think that she would be very jealous and suspicious of all of his interactions with Tenma and even Yakumo. And then there's the issue of the manga. That would be big trouble.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Sometimes, certain things are more obvious to the audience than they are to the characters (also known as dramatic irony). It should be fairly clear, especially from the chapter 203 where Eri tries to imitate Tenma, that Eri recognizes that Harima is attracted to Tenma. Eri is trying to figure out why - is he attracted to her on his own, or is it something that Tenma is doing, either conciously or unconciously, to attract him? Up until Ch.207, Eri believed that it was something that Tenma was unconciously doing, which is why Eri makes that comment in 204 ("Tenma, I just don't know what to do with you - don't you know what I'm going through?"). In 208, Eri believes that it is something that Tenma is conciously doing ("I won't lose to you.")
I disagree. IMO, Eri thought that Harima was getting along with Tenma in a friends-only sense in 203. She was concerned with getting normal attention from Harima, not specifically romantic attention. She didn't understand the real reason that Harima and Tougou were so attentive to Tenma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Well, you described that expression yourself as one of "great hurt". That's not the same thing as being sour. Now, if Eri didn't care, then she would have moved on immediately after sending the message. The fact is, however, that after sending it, she paused and showed that she was hurt greatly - which shows that she does care deeply about the rift that's developed.
Of course Eri cares. She's a good person, and Tenma is her close friend. But that doesn't mean Eri is ready to forgive Tenma, or even considering it yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
You're right. Approaching Harima has nothing to do with her situation with Tenma. That's why the vision of Tenma, and the feelings of jitteriness that accompany it, have absolutely nothing to do with Harima and the situation in the cafe. I'm glad you can finally concede that much.
But approaching Harima triggered the vision of Tenma and the feelings of jitteriness. There is definitely a connection. However, we don't have enough information to determine exactly what Eri's train of thought was there, just as we don't have enough information to precisely state what Yakumo's true feelings for Harima are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Actually, Tenma herself says that she's been on two dates during the summer, on that same page.
She said that she followed Karasuma to a wrestling match and saw him around town. Neither of those things were really a true "date".
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
With Eri, you need to take extra care with what she says, especially when it's something concerning her image. Do you really think that she would really tell her friends if she didn't go on any dates, especially when they are all talking about the dates that they went on?
Eri then went off on a rant on how she wanted real love. I don't think she was very concerned about her image there.
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Of course, if you want to assume that she's telling the truth here, doesn't a couple dates in four months strike you as a rather low number, for a popular girl who's in high school? Let's put aside the fact that Tenma herself has had the same amount of dates in that time. How many offers would Eri had to have turned down during that time period? What if, as with Harima (Ep.10) and the two confessions that she recieves during the flashback with Mikoto (Ep.15 S1), Eri was feeling sympathetic and wanted to find a way to let some of those guys down easily? How does this relate to whether or not she has deep or superficial relationships? We've seen how she handles her friendships and her relationship with Harima - shouldn't that settle the question rather easily?
Eri definitely began dating much less even in the early volumes, but it is implied that this was a change in behavior. My impression is that she used to frequently go on dates but wouldn't accept confessions. Her line in her introduction page was, "If it's only a date then that's OK."
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
If Eri is going on a date with a guy on Ch.93, then doesn't it strike you as rather odd that she asks the other girls to come along with her, as well? I certainly hope that you don't expect girls to completely avoid having any interactions with guys outside of dating them.
That comment definitely shocked Tenma and Mikoto. Clearly Eri wasn't serious at all about the date. I also noticed a slight resemblance between the guy and Harima. However, I would still define it as a date, just as I would define Harima and Eri's trip to the oyster bar as a date even though Harima seems to still be unaware of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
In Ch.152, we see a character called Employee B falling for a character called Employee A. Employee B isn't competing for Employee A's affections against a rival - she sees his determination and drive to satisfy his dreams in the face of adversity, and finds him attractive. It doesn't matter that Employee A is actually Harima and Employee B is actually Eri - what does matter is that it clearly demonstrates that Eri's love for Harima is not based on competition, and is not dependant on his identity as "Harima" - she loves him for the essential characteristics that make him who he is (something that's lacking in Harima's pursuit of Tenma, where he pursues Tenma because she is "Tenma", often ignoring the real girl's feelings in favour of that of the imaginary version that he's constructed in his mind).

There's no fear here that Eri is pursuing love for the sake of beating a rival. She wants to be with Harima because she loves Harima. The rivalry is relevant only insofar as it interferes with her ability to build her relationship with him.
That was true up to 207. Things have changed. Eri has gone too far. Previously when she believed that Harima loved someone else, she backed off, but now, when she actually knows the truth, she has increased her efforts. When approaching Harima, she didn't think of him but of Tenma, and increased her determination with a traditional, "I won't lose to you!"
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Actually, he was surprised that she was being so nice to him. If you think back to Ch.152, he thought the same thing when they were staying at the temple for the night. Harima usually expects the worst from Eri, because they're often fighting.
Harima was suspicious, though. In 152, he thought that she might be coming on to him (which wasn't entirely inaccurate) and started to panic. In 208, he thought that Eri was behaving strangely because she wanted something from him, which was even closer to the mark.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
If he was disturbed or otherwise repulsed by her behavior, wouldn't it make more sense for him not to tell her that he wanted to go with her to the opening?
Perhaps, but Harima evidently did remember agreeing to go in 204 despite his delusional state once he was prompted, and Harima is a man of his word.
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
It would be a fairly simple concept to accept if you didn't assume that flirting is done entirely for the purpose of gaining someone's romantic interest. Often enough, flirting, and dressing up attractively, is something done for fun. Nowhere does that statement imply that Eri does her hair to get guys to date her.

It's just that scene at the pool (Ch.36), where Tenma announces to Nara that she wants to be hit on and asked out, only to promptly reject him when he actually does. Now, you might choose to characterize Tenma and Eri as being superficial for enjoying to flirt and enjoying to recieve attention from guys, but it's actually very natural behaviour. At the end of the day, both girls care deeply for their friends and are always quick to help out in times of trouble, and both girls pour their hearts and souls into their respective relationships with the guys they love.

If guys can freely socialize with girls without being considered superficial, then shouldn't the reverse also be true? Even if you take a character like Yakumo, her dialogues with the ghost suggest that her inability to socialize with guys is a weakness, rather than a sign of depth ("Do you really hate men?"). In my opinion, it is highly unfair to call either Tenma or Eri superficial, simply for showing themselves to be extroverted and for showing themselves to have social skills - especially when society tends to value those qualities over their opposites.
You mentioned guys freely socializing with girls. In School Rumble, that brings to mind Imadori and Harry McKenzie, whom I would definitely characterize as superficial in terms of relationships. While Eri was certainly never as "bad" as Imadori with his perversion and fixation on D, I do have the impression that her social behavior was once similar to his.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Harima isn't in a relationship with Tenma, unlike Tenma, who is in a relationship with Karasuma. Note, though, that when Eri determined that Yakumo was dating Harima during the play, she walked off immediately, telling Yakumo that she had better follow through (with the kiss). Remember that this is the rival who destroyed her gift to Harima, ruined her play, and made a fool of Eri in front of the school - quite possibly the most courageous act that we've seen in the story, thus far. Harima's acts of atonement just don't measure up. Especially given that Eri didn't sabotage anything in the first place.
Tenma is not in a relationship with Karasuma any more than Harima is in a relationship with Tenma. Also, the bouquet was not an act of atonement. Harima sacrificed his plan to finally confess so that he could make Tenma happy in Karasuma's name - about as close to a purely selfless act as is possible. Eri backed off to preserve her dignity after she determined that there was nothing more to be gained by fighting Yakumo.

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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
Ah. Greeting Karasuma as he passes by is her way of showing a romantic interest in him, you say? Wouldn't that also imply that Tenma was showing a romantic interest in Harima every time she greeted him? The same would hold true for Mikoto. Come to think of it, it looks like all the guys in School Rumble must be hit on by all the girls, every day.

That sounds about right.

Oh, and without knowing what KJ is thinking, there is little that we can say on what any given character was "supposed" to be. Oudou was "supposed to" be the correct path. Then again, so was True Oudou.
Eri had just mentioned how she wanted to show her hair off for the guys. She then saw Karasuma ride by and said good morning with a little heart at the end. The implication is clearly that Karasuma was a guy to whom Eri wanted to show her hair off; Tenma and Harima then blew past her and messed her hair up, giving Eri karmic punishment for her superficiality. It follows from this that Eri's next interaction with Karasuma was probably another attempt to flirt with him instead of being part of a convoluted plan to encourage Tenma. The anime likely retconned this because Eri's extreme superficiality in the earliest chapters (and it was extreme) was out of line with her later, more complex characterization.
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Originally Posted by Swampstorm View Post
That last quote in particular does carry a certain sense of "She's going to try to seduce him like she did all those other poor saps, but her evil plot cannot succeed!" You can't seduce others. You can only encourage them to seduce themselves - and only if they so desire. A lot of the line of discussion that followed from those quotes could have been averted simply by recognizing that girls, like guys, have every right to actively initiate romantic relationships rather than sitting around being "vulnerable" (ie. passive and helpless), as was suggested earlier.
Okay then. How about, "Eri's going to try to encourage Harima to seduce himself, but her evil plot will not succeed!" And really, it won't. Unless Harima has a sudden, unexpected shattering of his tunnel vision, Eri won't have any luck pursuing him in the conventional matter. Before 202, Eri was trying to build a relationship with a guy whom she thought really loved her. Now, she is trying to win over a guy whom she knows does not love her and never really did. I believe that Eri would (well, might) have backed off once again if she had discovered that Harima loved Yakumo, but her pride can't deal with Harima loving Tenma - and worse yet, a Tenma who is unaware of her own effect on him.
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Old 2007-01-19, 03:27   Link #1269
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Originally Posted by Marsala View Post
Perhaps, but Harima evidently did remember agreeing to go in 204 despite his delusional state once he was prompted, and Harima is a man of his word.
I think that more than anything prompted his response, the fact that he did agree upon going with her back in 204.


Quote:
You mentioned guys freely socializing with girls. In School Rumble, that brings to mind Imadori and Harry McKenzie, whom I would definitely characterize as superficial in terms of relationships. While Eri was certainly never as "bad" as Imadori with his perversion and fixation on D, I do have the impression that her social behavior was once similar to his.
Thats the idea, Eri was just like Imadori and Harry, but she has changed greatly, and mostly due to Harima. In addition even Imadori has changed a little, thanks to Ichijou, though it doesn't show on the outside...he will never give up on the D!


Quote:
Eri had just mentioned how she wanted to show her hair off for the guys. She then saw Karasuma ride by and said good morning with a little heart at the end. The implication is clearly that Karasuma was a guy to whom Eri wanted to show her hair off; Tenma and Harima then blew past her and messed her hair up, giving Eri karmic punishment for her superficiality. It follows from this that Eri's next interaction with Karasuma was probably another attempt to flirt with him instead of being part of a convoluted plan to encourage Tenma. The anime likely retconned this because Eri's extreme superficiality in the earliest chapters (and it was extreme) was out of line with her later, more complex characterization.
This transformation of her character is what won me over from disliking her, its a wonderful character development.


Quote:
Okay then. How about, "Eri's going to try to encourage Harima to seduce himself, but her evil plot will not succeed!" And really, it won't. Unless Harima has a sudden, unexpected shattering of his tunnel vision, Eri won't have any luck pursuing him in the conventional matter. Before 202, Eri was trying to build a relationship with a guy whom she thought really loved her. Now, she is trying to win over a guy whom she knows does not love her and never really did. I believe that Eri would (well, might) have backed off once again if she had discovered that Harima loved Yakumo, but her pride can't deal with Harima loving Tenma - and worse yet, a Tenma who is unaware of her own effect on him.
Eri's only chance i can forsee is building a friendly relationship with Harima, and going from there, but now this is being impeded by her pride. I think she is moving too fast towards a foreseeable disaster.
Though i don't believe Eri would give up completely unless she was sure Harima would never change his mind. (in both Yakumo and Tenma's case)


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Old 2007-01-19, 08:19   Link #1270
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And for the next one...
Spoiler for ch 209:


Spoiler for b47:
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Old 2007-01-19, 08:45   Link #1271
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Busied the all day so didn't have time to post till now

Before actually starting the real post, i want to edit something to my last one, about the "suspension bridge effect". Marsala mentioned that the love caused by this effect can't be that strong (like how Harima loved Tenma), .....i will say it can.Note: The sudden confession, then Harima's fall can cause same effects with the suspension bridge, which are heart beating increased, nervous and others. This make Harima immediately thought that he fall in love (for the first time). It is similar or actually the SAME with "love in first sight" case. Then what happen if someone for the first time realise that they are in love with someone ? Do things that they saw on movie, which lover do: try to get closer to that person, always look and dream after them, follow them , change your own habbits so you can have the same with that person....etc..... like Harima did. I did experienced the same things for THREE long years, even when i know this effect throught psychology lesson (with diffrent name through). Same with Harima, i also once thought that is normal love. But even when i always looking for that girl when she is around, when she is not, my mind never think about her. And when after finished the final year of high school, i do not feel even a bit regret about have to be away from that girl, and THAT make me realise the diffrent between real love and the fake psychology effect. (Note: some people actually going alone with this relationship, but when they recognise this is not their type of girl/guy, break-up is result )

OK back to SR, chapter 208 and Eri now
First about Harima and Tenma's relationship It is truth that Harima and Tenma have so many points in common, however those points is not the reason for at Harima have a crush with Tenma. Harima always after Tenma because she, in his eye, a cute girl (even when she was eatting in a weird way on the bus ). I read the series so many times before and i do not remember any other reason for Harima's love to Tenma other than that (i may forget some detail through). Her insensitive and a bit ( i say a bit) dense head angried Harima a lot of time too ( and he release the anger on the toilet's door ) and most of Tenma's character that Harima admired come from misunderstand; so maybe Odou is not the "true path " after all ^^. Hmm, another thing, Karasuma and Tenma are quite close along the story als(if you noticed in some SR season 2 chapter) so their relationship actually much better than HarimaxTenma

Before starting go back to Eri i have to be clear about some special issue that we debate over lately. Everyone have a different point of view so if we can't make it clear , we certainly can't agree with each other. For example, about the part that Eri recall Tenma's image about the cafe. Not sure about how other think but in my opinion, unless Eri after Harima only in the puspose to win Tenma so she can prove she is more attractive; then later dumped Harima when she is success, then she is really wrong. However if she enter the cafe and directly invite him out rather than "playing the tired high school game" waiting for him to confess first (like her little devil said ^^) because she can't wait, to lose Harima 's love to Tenma( which seemed to be clearer to her since 203 -207); then isn't it reasonable? Isn't that what we all waiting for, something happen which can motivate Eri to step forward and admit to everyone her love to Harima? Once again i repeat, "Afraid of losing to Tenma is the motivation for Eri to face directly and partly admit her love with Harima, rather than waiting for more chances NOT the motivation for her to win Harima by anyway possible. Even without chapter 207's incidence, Eri will still remain loving harima, and will try to win Harima by any mean. "Not gonna Losing to Tenma" just speed things up, since now she have the danger of losing her love, NOT the reason for her to after Harima. If you still think that she is wrong after all of these then the problem will only be the different between our attitude.

Eri's smile in chapter 208 was often compare with her look in chapter 204(?) when she invite Harima out for oyster bar (which was often described as her true self). However the lack in information up to chapter 208 was not enough to compare theses two. One was without much careful thought and prepare (she admit that she shouldn't say that also) another one was prepared carefully and even need "losing to Tenma" motivation that we mentioned above before she can be dare enough to step in and "forcefully do no matter how it make her look" to mention about the old promise. So both of these could be how the real Eri act, just in diffrent situation and time. The compare of these two scenes should not be discussed anymore unless you have more proofs.Still she forgot her pride and showed her true feeling for once, and i am glad of that .

Eri's number of dates often created more debate also. But depend on each person 's view date may actually mean a lot different. To Eri, the "business" dinner she have with some guy (when she paid the bill for Harima) may be considered as a date to her, which will be so much different with the romantic date that most of us or characters in SR may think about. So even Eri have tonnes of date like that, it will not show anything about Eri's character. In contrast, Eri often mess up with situation which require romantic (except in chapter 208), so just let say that she haven't been in that much or none serious date for now. Until you can give the REAL prove to either support or against, i guess we don't need to go further on this as well.

Finally about Eri's pride. Eri 's pride was not actually that great. The only case that i see her as a Ojou's style girl is when she keep refusing that she have any feeling to Hige Harima. Everyone can tell me more about the occasion that Eri's pride ruined Eri's character?

Haha you are all lucky, because i will post another 20 paragraphs if Chapter 209 didn't come out

Now what should i do, press to read the spoiler or wait for the manga @_@? *looking for a coin to toss*
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Old 2007-01-19, 10:56   Link #1272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by risingstar3110 View Post
OK back to SR, chapter 208 and Eri now
First about Harima and Tenma's relationship It is truth that Harima and Tenma have so many points in common, however those points is not the reason for at Harima have a crush with Tenma. Harima always after Tenma because she, in his eye, a cute girl (even when she was eatting in a weird way on the bus ). I read the series so many times before and i do not remember any other reason for Harima's love to Tenma other than that (i may forget some detail through). Her insensitive and a bit ( i say a bit) dense head angried Harima a lot of time too ( and he release the anger on the toilet's door ) and most of Tenma's character that Harima admired come from misunderstand; so maybe Odou is not the "true path " after all ^^. Hmm, another thing, Karasuma and Tenma are quite close along the story als(if you noticed in some SR season 2 chapter) so their relationship actually much better than HarimaxTenma
This is true as well, Harima has never really gotten to know Tenma as much as he would like to, but he isn't completely in the dark since they have had their moments time and again.
You're also right on another point, when they do interact, sometimes even Harima can lose his patience with her and take his anger out on innocent bystanding toilet doors. Even so, that doesn't mean his feelings aren't solid, but they have yet to be truly tested. You have to remember this is a plot driven by misunderstandings, SR is misunderstandings. lol



Quote:
For example, about the part that Eri recall Tenma's image about the cafe. Not sure about how other think but in my opinion, unless Eri after Harima only in the puspose to win Tenma so she can prove she is more attractive; then later dumped Harima when she is success, then she is really wrong.
Goes without saying my friend lol


Quote:
However if she enter the cafe and directly invite him out rather than "playing the tired high school game" waiting for him to confess first (like her little devil said ^^) because she can't wait, to lose Harima 's love to Tenma( which seemed to be clearer to her since 203 -207); then isn't it reasonable? Isn't that what we all waiting for, something happen which can motivate Eri to step forward and admit to everyone her love to Harima? Once again i repeat, "Afraid of losing to Tenma is the motivation for Eri to face directly and partly admit her love with Harima, rather than waiting for more chances NOT the motivation for her to win Harima by anyway possible. Even without chapter 207's incidence, Eri will still remain loving harima, and will try to win Harima by any mean. "Not gonna Losing to Tenma" just speed things up, since now she have the danger of losing her love, NOT the reason for her to after Harima. If you still think that she is wrong after all of these then the problem will only be the different between our attitude.
I can see what you're getting at here, but everything i felt on ch208 pointed towards Eri feeling like this whole thing had turned into something other than an honest pursuit of love, but a competition she could not lose. I can't shake the feeling i got from her smile.


Eri the seductress?! Where is the jittery nervous cute girl from the incident in the mansion!?

On the other hand you can also say it might be her taking this to the next level because she doesn't want to lose...him, for once she might actually feel like she could lose Harima for good since for the first time the girl she is in competition with actually has Harima's affections.



Quote:
Eri's smile in chapter 208 was often compare with her look in chapter 204(?) when she invite Harima out for oyster bar (which was often described as her true self). However the lack in information up to chapter 208 was not enough to compare theses two. One was without much careful thought and prepare (she admit that she shouldn't say that also) another one was prepared carefully and even need "losing to Tenma" motivation that we mentioned above before she can be dare enough to step in and "forcefully do no matter how it make her look" to mention about the old promise. So both of these could be how the real Eri act, just in diffrent situation and time. The compare of these two scenes should not be discussed anymore unless you have more proofs.Still she forgot her pride and showed her true feeling for once, and i am glad of that .
Where in 204 is a smile that compares to 208? Who said that? She barely smiles in 204, all she does is nervous smiles because she is still her usual nervous self around Harima. It can be used to compare the contrast between Eri in two different situations but not for similarities as there are none.


Quote:
Eri's number of dates often created more debate also. But depend on each person 's view date may actually mean a lot different. To Eri, the "business" dinner she have with some guy (when she paid the bill for Harima) may be considered as a date to her, which will be so much different with the romantic date that most of us or characters in SR may think about. So even Eri have tonnes of date like that, it will not show anything about Eri's character. In contrast, Eri often mess up with situation which require romantic (except in chapter 208), so just let say that she haven't been in that much or none serious date for now. Until you can give the REAL prove to either support or against, i guess we don't need to go further on this as well.
There hasn't been much information regarding this, but all i know is that she would go on dates but never go on second dates with the same guy. Supposedly she would go on dates with them for the hell of it, nothing romantic involved on her part. Yes, infact, she is quite inexperienced when it comes to real love.


Quote:
Finally about Eri's pride. Eri 's pride was not actually that great. The only case that i see her as a Ojou's style girl is when she keep refusing that she have any feeling to Hige Harima. Everyone can tell me more about the occasion that Eri's pride ruined Eri's character?
I still believe Eri's pride is something that she felt she had to put up as a front, being the rich daughter of an important businessman with boys all around her fawning at her every movement.


Quote:
Now what should i do, press to read the spoiler or wait for the manga @_@? *looking for a coin to toss*
Up to you, but im sure as hell waiting for the manga, it kills the buzz when i just read some plain text.
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Old 2007-01-19, 11:02   Link #1273
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clicked the spoilers...well seems the factions are getting along well
Dunno about it but I feel something is gonna happen in a few more chapters. I can give it 1 or 3 more that's when we'll get results about the misundestandings again...I think XD
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Old 2007-01-19, 11:15   Link #1274
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^ you should mark your spoilers as well, some people don't want to know anything at all (like me)
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Old 2007-01-19, 12:04   Link #1275
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Originally Posted by The Small One View Post
I'm not sure if I understand you correct: You are discussing in a RAW-Manga-only thread, but you don't want to know, what is happening in the newest raw-manga-chapters?
I was discussing 208, and even the poster of 209's material is still spoiler marked, its not that hard really. Im just asking for some common courtesy, if you don't want to mark your spoilers ill just manually avoid them... i won't discuss the matter of spoilers any further ive stated my opinion, you can take any position on it.

For the record i see your point thats why i won't say anything further on the topic lol
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Old 2007-01-19, 12:11   Link #1276
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Originally Posted by -Ajax- View Post
I was discussing 208, and even the poster of 209's material is still spoiler marked, its not that hard really. Im just asking for some common courtesy, if you don't want to mark your spoilers ill just manually avoid them... i won't discuss the matter of spoilers any further ive stated my opinion, you can take any position on it.
Except this is the manga raw discussion thread, not the translated manga discussion thread. And BTW, you may not mention translation groups either. Please read the first post

The very nature of this thread means that manga discussion doesn't need spoiler tags. The fact that hi no ken Jebus uses them when he posts a summary of the latest chapter is just a courtesy.
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Old 2007-01-19, 12:20   Link #1277
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Originally Posted by xris View Post
Except this is the manga raw discussion thread, not the translated manga discussion thread. And BTW, you may not mention translation groups either. Please read the first post

The very nature of this thread means that manga discussion doesn't need spoiler tags. The fact that hi no ken Jebus uses them when he posts a summary of the latest chapter is just a courtesy.
Yea got it, thats why i said it was a courtesy.

Though i did not know i couldn't mention you now who, better edit that post.

EDIT: Nevermind you got it
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Old 2007-01-19, 12:22   Link #1278
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Originally Posted by hi no ken Jebus View Post
Spoiler for ch 209:
Uh oh, looks like Yakumo's getting ready to throw down...

Quote:
Spoiler:
So they're placed in yet another convenient situation where it's just the two of them alone. This is it. If Eri doesn't break the tunnel vision then we're definitely headed for another reset.

Quote:
Spoiler for b47:
Even though she was joking, could this be the prelude to the upcoming Flute x Glasses war?

Quote:
Spoiler:
Niiiiice. For some reason I think Asou is better off with Sara than he was with Mikoto.
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Old 2007-01-19, 12:38   Link #1279
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Forgot these with the b chapter
Spoiler for b47:
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Old 2007-01-19, 13:29   Link #1280
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209 seems like a cute chapter - this sort of response from Harima was long overdue, given what we've been through in the past weeks. I don't care too much for the side chapter, though - it looks like Basketball was dropped suddenly for the sole purpose of reassigning Mikoto and Asou to other pairings. They both seem to have rebounded a little too easily.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Why do I keep getting involved in shipping debates?
This is can't be called a shipping debate, unless your only real reason for condemning Eri is because you want to justify another, alternate pairing. But you're more sensible than that, right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
But doesn't that show that Eri is now motivated by her desire not to lose, instead of her desire to be together with Harima? She shouldn't be thinking of Tenma at all as she approaches Harima. As for Eri knowing where Harima was, well, either she's secretly stalking him or she visits the popular Mercado in the evenings frequently and thus sees him there.
It actually shows that Eri is motivated by her desire not to lose Harima, because she enjoys being with him. The two things are not mutually exclusive - you can worry about losing the people you love. We've shown fairly strong proof that indicates that Eri loves Harima for who he is, instead of simply for the reason of "winning". If you are unable to address that issue directly, I don't see how you have a case.

Eri hangs out at Mercado - that's where she meets with her friends after school.

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Originally Posted by Marsala
I think we saw Eri's real feelings in 196-198 and especially in 204 when she asked Harima to the oyster bar the first time: nervous but sincere. She swallowed her pride and took "one step forward", as the sidetext said. Now, however, Eri's approach has changed because she sees it as a battle between herself and Tenma.
Irrelevant. Eri loves Harima, regardless of whether she is feeling secure or insecure in her relationship with him. In the absence of a rival, Eri works to build a relationship with Harima to get closer to him. In the presence of a rival, Eri works to protect her relationship with Harima. In both cases, she is genuinely interested in the relationship. If you want to support the claim that Eri has "changed her approach", then the burden of proof is on you to show that Eri has no romantic interest in Harima and that her sole reason for pursuing him to outdo Tenma. If you are unable do that, then your argument is not valid.

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Originally Posted by Marsala
It has been good that Eri has sacrificed her pride to help Harima or try to get closer to him. However, her pride also has motivated her to push harder: because of her pride, she confronted Tae, dueled Yakumo figuratively and literally, and is now developing a rift with Tenma.
Eri never really has a confrontation with Tae, who has the good sense and insight to understand Eri's situation. Tenma and Yakumo, however, have always been shielded by their lack of awareness - they're allowed to trample all over Eri's feelings, simply because they are oblivious to her plight. It's not pride that causes these conflicts in the first place - they're the result of a lack of sensitivity. Eri's pride makes the situation more difficult, and by overcoming her pride, she resolves the situation - but the root problem, found in Tenma and Yakumo's insensitivity, is never addressed, so neither of Eri's rivals actually grow, in that regard.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
If Harima's love for Tenma was based only on the Suspension Bridge effect, it wouldn't be so strong. We have seen many instances of how similar they are in personality, and Yakumo, the person who knows both of them the best, believes in their compatibility.
I disagree strongly here. I'd say that Yakumo doesn't know either of them nearly as well as she thinks she does - which is part of the problem that seems to be developing here.

In 206, we see Yakumo shaken briefly, when the girls decide to put up the Eri and Harima dolls together. She reassures herself by saying that Harima will be the same always... forever. Now, perhaps you agree with her, given the fact that Harima seems nearly unwavering in terms of his tunnel vision - in which case that scene would simply demonstrate how well she knows him. But in my mind, that statement rings of a challenge: Yakumo may desire to have her vision of Harima to be constant and unchanging - but it isn't. From what I've seen, Harima has the potential within him to grow as a character - and he's showing it more than ever as of late, in his relationship with Eri. Ch. 209 is an excellent example of how he's softening up to her.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
If Oudou is the final ending, Tenma and Eri will resolve their differences before the end. In fact, I expect that Eri would be the one to give Harima and Tenma the last little push. Yakumo has already thrown her support behind Oudou; perhaps she may wish it could have been different deep down, but we have already seen her happy ending with Sara. Finally, Harima and Tenma winding up together would be predictable, but romantic comedies aren't supposed to be mystery stories. In most romantic comedies, it's clear from the beginning that the male and female leads will wind up with each other; the fun comes from watching how it happens.
Set aside the Oudou fanfics for a second. You're right to assume that the male and female leads will end up together. But who is that male lead, and who is that female lead? Now, if you claim that the main protagonist is first main character to be introduced, then that would be Tenma - and her story is about getting together with Karasuma (who is the first main male character to be introduced). If you want to claim that the main protagonist is the character around whom the events and conflicts in the story are centred, or the character who recieves the greatest amount of character development, then that would be Eri - and her story is about getting together with Harima. You'll have an extremely hard time proving that Harima recieves more focus as a character than either of these two female leads.

Of course, your also completely ignoring the fact that Tenma wants to be with Karasuma. Eri would be doing Tenma a disservice if she tried to pair Tenma and Harima up, given that Tenma wants to be with Karasuma. It's surprising that Yakumo seems to have glossed over this point, somewhere in formulating her master plan on "How Harima should be".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
I believe that Eri and Tenma will make up in the end, but the Harima issue is enormous. Even if Harima began going out with Eri immediately, I think that she would be very jealous and suspicious of all of his interactions with Tenma and even Yakumo. And then there's the issue of the manga. That would be big trouble.
Do we really know what Harima's current manga is about? Why is this new manga big trouble?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
I disagree. IMO, Eri thought that Harima was getting along with Tenma in a friends-only sense in 203. She was concerned with getting normal attention from Harima, not specifically romantic attention. She didn't understand the real reason that Harima and Tougou were so attentive to Tenma.
I don't recall Eri using the words "friends-only" or anything that implied that idea. More script writing from you, I suppose?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
But approaching Harima triggered the vision of Tenma and the feelings of jitteriness. There is definitely a connection. However, we don't have enough information to determine exactly what Eri's train of thought was there, just as we don't have enough information to precisely state what Yakumo's true feelings for Harima are.
Actually we do have enough information to state what Yakumo's feelings for Harima are - that's what Ch.206 is all about. She tells Sara with a perfectly calm face that her feelings for Harima aren't "like that". Harima is just an idol or symbol that she is trying to preserve as it is - symbolized in part by the fact that she's working with dolls.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
She said that she followed Karasuma to a wrestling match and saw him around town. Neither of those things were really a true "date".
Oh, and what do you do on a true date? I always believed that the only requirement is that it involves a meeting of two people, be it casual or formal. I never knew that it was so restrictive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Eri then went off on a rant on how she wanted real love. I don't think she was very concerned about her image there.
Unless part of her image is to play the role of a lovestruck girl? Doesn't Mikoto laugh at the image of Eri being actually lovestruck as absurd, just before she encounters Harima confessing to Eri, early in the manga?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Eri definitely began dating much less even in the early volumes, but it is implied that this was a change in behavior. My impression is that she used to frequently go on dates but wouldn't accept confessions. Her line in her introduction page was, "If it's only a date then that's OK."
Oh? How is it implied? Care to show me?

In order for your statement to be valid, you would have to demonstrate that Eri used to frequently go on dates. You attempted to do so in your earlier reply, but I disproved that in my last post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
That comment definitely shocked Tenma and Mikoto. Clearly Eri wasn't serious at all about the date. I also noticed a slight resemblance between the guy and Harima. However, I would still define it as a date, just as I would define Harima and Eri's trip to the oyster bar as a date even though Harima seems to still be unaware of that.
Again, you didn't address the issue at stake - if Eri is going on a date, then why is she asking her friends to come along? Isn't it more likely that she was just getting a ride somewhere?

He resembles Harima in the fact that he is male and has black hair, although I hardly see how the issue is relevant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
That was true up to 207. Things have changed. Eri has gone too far. Previously when she believed that Harima loved someone else, she backed off, but now, when she actually knows the truth, she has increased her efforts. When approaching Harima, she didn't think of him but of Tenma, and increased her determination with a traditional, "I won't lose to you!"
She doesn't think that Harima is pursuing Tenma. She thinks that Tenma is pursuing Harima. That's the same situation with Yakumo - if Yakumo is pursuing Harima, then Harima is fair game. If Harima is pursuing Yakumo, then Eri demonstrated that she wants no part in it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Harima was suspicious, though. In 152, he thought that she might be coming on to him (which wasn't entirely inaccurate) and started to panic. In 208, he thought that Eri was behaving strangely because she wanted something from him, which was even closer to the mark.
In 152, Harima thought that she was blushing because she was afraid that he would take advantage of her. He didn't think that she was coming on to him - he's confused as to why she is being so nice to him, when he expects the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Marsala
Perhaps, but Harima evidently did remember agreeing to go in 204 despite his delusional state once he was prompted, and Harima is a man of his word.
Refer to Ch. 209.

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Originally Posted by Marsala
You mentioned guys freely socializing with girls. In School Rumble, that brings to mind Imadori and Harry McKenzie, whom I would definitely characterize as superficial in terms of relationships. While Eri was certainly never as "bad" as Imadori with his perversion and fixation on D, I do have the impression that her social behavior was once similar to his.
I find it strange that you seem to be unable to grasp what socializing means. Harima socializes with girls, too. As does Asou.

It's funny how you apply your prejudice to Imadori and Harry, though. After the Cultural Festival Play, Imadori turns down offers to dance when he hears Karen sing. Likewise, Harry seems to have a fairly strong friendship with Tougou, and he shows genuine concern for Lala as well. I think it's unfair to simply call them superficial, just because the stereotypes associated with being popular.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Tenma is not in a relationship with Karasuma any more than Harima is in a relationship with Tenma. Also, the bouquet was not an act of atonement. Harima sacrificed his plan to finally confess so that he could make Tenma happy in Karasuma's name - about as close to a purely selfless act as is possible. Eri backed off to preserve her dignity after she determined that there was nothing more to be gained by fighting Yakumo.
If I remember correctly, Harima asked Karasuma if he was dating Tenma, and he gave a fairly ambiguous answer. That being said, you know for a fact that Harima and Tenma are not dating. Tenma and Karasuma are keeping each other's company, having private conversations, sharing their dreams and worries, and exchanging gifts - which at least implies a very close personal relationship between the two. While we don't know the situation exactly, we do know that it isn't a bond that anyone else has a right to destroy.

He sacrificed a single attempt to confess, but it wasn't his only window of opportunity to confess - he has had plenty of opportunities before and after. In that regard, no sacrifice is made. In addition, he recieves his payback immediately - Tenma finds out right away and thanks him. Contrast this to many of Eri's efforts, such as when she pays off Harima's debts or trys to sew for him - which go unnoticed. Also, I'd feel more impressed by his act if he didn't try to destroy Karasuma's manga, thinking that it was a confession attempt to Tenma, in the very next chapter.

If Eri backed off just to preserve her dignity, then why does she tell Yakumo that she had better follow through with the kiss?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Eri had just mentioned how she wanted to show her hair off for the guys. She then saw Karasuma ride by and said good morning with a little heart at the end. The implication is clearly that Karasuma was a guy to whom Eri wanted to show her hair off; Tenma and Harima then blew past her and messed her hair up, giving Eri karmic punishment for her superficiality. It follows from this that Eri's next interaction with Karasuma was probably another attempt to flirt with him instead of being part of a convoluted plan to encourage Tenma. The anime likely retconned this because Eri's extreme superficiality in the earliest chapters (and it was extreme) was out of line with her later, more complex characterization.
I somehow suspect that if karmic punishment is involved here, it has more to do with arrogance than it does with superficiality. That being said, I'm not sure which is more remarkable - the fact that after both watching the anime and reading the manga, you still insist that Eri is flirting with Karasuma, or the fact that you consider the act of a girl greeting a guy constitutes flirting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marsala
Okay then. How about, "Eri's going to try to encourage Harima to seduce himself, but her evil plot will not succeed!" And really, it won't. Unless Harima has a sudden, unexpected shattering of his tunnel vision, Eri won't have any luck pursuing him in the conventional matter. Before 202, Eri was trying to build a relationship with a guy whom she thought really loved her. Now, she is trying to win over a guy whom she knows does not love her and never really did. I believe that Eri would (well, might) have backed off once again if she had discovered that Harima loved Yakumo, but her pride can't deal with Harima loving Tenma - and worse yet, a Tenma who is unaware of her own effect on him.
I suppose that we once again return to the Yakumo challenge of Ch.206, here - is Harima capable of developing as a character, or is he static and unchanging? I have faith in him.

Of course, if you don't care much for faith, then Ch.209 will have to suffice as proof by contradiction.

By the way, I've noticed that you've sidestepped certain issues in your reply. Aren't you going to address Tenma's conduct during the pool episode? Or do the exact same accusations that you level against Eri hold true for Tenma, as well?
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