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Old 2004-10-15, 06:22   Link #21
MakubeX2
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
If I understand correctly, the Japanese as a culture greatly value their image, so if that's taken into consideration, their whole denial thing isn't too hard to understand.
No excuse for trying to rewrite History into their own version though.

There's no loss of face in admitting your own mistake and apologise for it.Denying the things you had done only makes you more of a sore loser and hypocrite.
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Old 2004-10-15, 07:23   Link #22
Newprimus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2
No excuse for trying to rewrite History into their own version though.

There's no loss of face in admitting your own mistake and apologise for it.Denying the things you had done only makes you more of a sore loser and hypocrite.

Well I was saying that that was why they must've done it, I wasn't saying it made them any less of sore losers.


But taking this image thing a step further, if one lived in Japan and admitted to a mistake, he or she'd be shunned from his or her part of society anyway. Anything that tarnishes a person's image, whether discovered or admitted, puts him out of the loop, so to speak either way........ that is what I could gather.


So yeah they're sore losers, but they'll lose their highly-valued social status either way..... Of course, that kind of thinking would only work if every other nation thought like the Japanese did and valued image (if we did, then we might instead commend the Japanese for not letting a little thing like history and fact tarnish their social image (yes, I'm being sarcastic))

But in reality we're different thinking people so we'd rather have them be honest and admit their mistakes. But the Japanese have always been kinda insular, if you know what I mean. Kinda shut out the rest of the world aside from what's needed, dunno. Maybe kj could elaborate.
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Old 2004-10-15, 07:57   Link #23
dreamless
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well, for anyone interested, I'll post the links to a Japanese site which contains some images from the manga here. It could have some disturbing images, but nowhere near, say, something from Berserk, GANTZ, Elfen Lied, Narutaru, etc. if you ask me... but anyway if you are extremely sensitive to that kind of things, don't look.

http://sakura777.web.infoseek.co.jp/...shuueisha.html

Japanese protest against Motomiya Hiroshi (author of Salaryman Kintaro) for "inapropriate portrayal of the Nanking Incident" in his new manga "the country is on fire" ("the country is burning") serialized on Young Jump Weekly.

And another link to a Japanese site reporting the protest

http://www.zakzak.co.jp/top/2004_10/t2004100912.html

With the protest against Motomiya Hiroshi, the descendants of the two "hundred people killers" reported by News Today back then is now seeking a lawsuit against the newspaper.

About denying or accepting the history to keep one's image, well, there are great mangakas like Tezuka Osamu (the God of Manga), Hojo Tsukasa, Murakami Motoka, and of course Motomiya Hiroshi, among many others, who have shown through their works and interviews that they are people who can really accept the truth of history and can really "get over the past".

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-15 at 08:08.
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Old 2004-10-15, 08:06   Link #24
MakubeX2
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You got the above 2 links from the link I've posted right ?

People here should take a look at that link for an in depth and emotional discussion, too bad the mod closed the thread before things could have overheat.

In case anyone miss that...here it is again.
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Old 2004-10-15, 08:53   Link #25
Akumabito
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Nanking is taught in Japanese schools, it is not completely ignored. I actually found a couple websites last updated in the 90's that show this, so it isn't as bad as some of you seem to think. That said it seems to mostly have been in the last 10 or so years that they have taught or acknowledged it, so there are still older generations in denial.

Here is a good bit on the whole treatment of the subject of Nanking

And this is a sample of some Japanese history books and how they treated the subject back in 1998 (hopefully the books have improved since then)


edit: fixed some grammar
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Old 2004-10-15, 10:45   Link #26
durrem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shinova
If I understand correctly, the Japanese as a culture greatly value their image, so if that's taken into consideration, their whole denial thing isn't too hard to understand.
I remember reading an article a while ago regarding the difference between shame and guilt cultures. Sorry I couldn't find it again, but I googled this article, which basically states the concept.
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Old 2004-10-15, 11:11   Link #27
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Who cares?

The world was saved from the evil imperialistic Japanese by the flash of a thousand suns, English isn't a SOV type language now (thank fucking God), and we have this amazing thing that allows people to believe whatever the fuck they want about whatever the fuck they want! Oh my GAWD.

The Japanese did bad things. WOooo. Lots of people did bad things. Stalin did bad things. Hitler did bad things. You've probably done bad things, though likely not on the genocide level (unless you've stepped on ant hills, you dirty, murdering bastard). If the Japanese want to make comics about it, let them. After all, we celebrate the scientists who created the weapon that murdered God knows how many of their civilians and condemned countless others to a slow death through whatever. I'm all for celebrating those guys. If I wanted to do research, I'd write a book about them, calling them the greatest heroes of western democracy (naturally the best political ideology in existance).

Yeah, seriously, fuck it. The Japanese are screwed up, but if it doesn't hurt me and doesn't really hurt anyone else (it's not), then let them do whatever the hell they want.
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Old 2004-10-15, 11:47   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewLB
Who cares?

The world was saved from the evil imperialistic Japanese by the flash of a thousand suns, English isn't a SOV type language now (thank fucking God), and we have this amazing thing that allows people to believe whatever the fuck they want about whatever the fuck they want! Oh my GAWD.

The Japanese did bad things. WOooo. Lots of people did bad things. Stalin did bad things. Hitler did bad things. You've probably done bad things, though likely not on the genocide level (unless you've stepped on ant hills, you dirty, murdering bastard). If the Japanese want to make comics about it, let them. After all, we celebrate the scientists who created the weapon that murdered God knows how many of their civilians and condemned countless others to a slow death through whatever. I'm all for celebrating those guys. If I wanted to do research, I'd write a book about them, calling them the greatest heroes of western democracy (naturally the best political ideology in existance).

Yeah, seriously, fuck it. The Japanese are screwed up, but if it doesn't hurt me and doesn't really hurt anyone else (it's not), then let them do whatever the hell they want.
let them do the hell they want?
to chinese and koreans, at least to those that have pride about their race, or any kind of sense of justice, the japanese attitude towards their actions in WW2 is unacceptable.
To put it in understanding for western white people, here's an analogy:
if post-ww2 germany denies the holocaust, or re-write their history book saying the holocaust was forced to happen because of aggression of the jews, how would the rest of the world, or the jews view post-ww2 germany? How would the victims of from the aggression of nazi germany feel when the majority of descedents of nazi germany feel no remorses for the holocaust and only apologize because they have to for economic reason?, how would the world feel when the government of modern germany still indirectly honor hitler and nazi germany? how would the world react if modern germany hold ceremony to HONOR hitler on remembrance day instead of speaking about the ill actions of its past regime?

now think about it in with the japanese now
textbooks, authorized by the government, teach a fictional version of their actions in ww2.
The right-wing extremists honor the actions of ww2 japan instead of accept apologize for the inhumane actions.
Hell, i have seen signs in japan saying :" no chinese people allow in store" for some jap shops.

We chinese and koreans arent asking the modern japanese to knee down and beg for our forgiveness, but at least publicly or officially denounce the inhumane actions of ww2 japan, such as the rape of nanjing, and teach the population about the truth.
It's not the descendent's faults for their past, but it is their fault for denying it and ignoring their responsibilities.
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Old 2004-10-15, 11:47   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewLB
Who cares?

Yeah, seriously, fuck it. The Japanese are screwed up, but if it doesn't hurt me and doesn't really hurt anyone else (it's not), then let them do whatever the hell they want.
I care, i'm sure many other people care. Whether it be for what Hitler did, or what the japanese did, but i sure care a lot more now that i've read the links provided. Just goes to show how ignorant you are saying that it will not affect us. If they don't believe that its wrong, then whos to know they won't wage another war when given the opportunity? Just because nothing has happened to YOU yet doesn't mean nothing won't happen.
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Old 2004-10-15, 12:25   Link #30
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewLB
Yeah, seriously, fuck it. The Japanese are screwed up, but if it doesn't hurt me and doesn't really hurt anyone else (it's not), then let them do whatever the hell they want.
Don't underestimate the effects of changing history records on the future, or the influence of the right wing extremism and militarism on people. Sure they seem harmless, just some escapists, idiots and psychos trying to ignore truth, change history records and say their ancestors weren't wrong in WW2. But the effects on real world is already showing. The hatred raised between peoples from different nations, things like haunterex mentioned, Japanese shops putting up signs saying "no Chinese allowed", Chinese shops putting up signs saying "No Japanese allowed", Chinese/Koreans refusing/burning Japanese products, and the Japanese government suddenly claiming Diao Yu Dao as their own, setting up flags on it and sending military ships driving away Chinese fisher ships, the escalation of tension between the countries and peoples is very real, and the signs of Japan's uprising aggressive militarism tendencies are very real, and if you think this won't hurt anyone, it will be too late by the time you are dragged into a WW3.

And US did play a big part in things leading to the current situation, like sheltering and supporting the right wing government, suppressing left wing movement in Japan, US-Japan Security Treaty, US giving Japan advanced weapons, things like that, so it's not really totally unrelated to Americans, or at least the foreign policies adopted by the US government.
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Old 2004-10-15, 13:07   Link #31
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if someone or some people dont like it, then why read it? It annoys me when people are like that and complain saying i dont like this or that, its simple just ignore it!
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Old 2004-10-15, 13:21   Link #32
dreamless
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Originally Posted by hobbsy
if someone or some people dont like it, then why read it? It annoys me when people are like that and complain saying i dont like this or that, its simple just ignore it!
because it's politics. we can't ignore some people changing history, or some people putting up signs on shops like "no Chinese allowed", or some people protesting that "Nanking Massacre never happened". It's not just a "if you don't like, ignore it" deal. back before WW2 a lot of European countries ignored Nazi Germany's political development, and? yup, WW2. It's no longer just a simple like/dislike stuff, it's about politics. why child porns are banned in most countries in the world? why racism is actively shunned by most people in the world?
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Old 2004-10-15, 13:52   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
Don't underestimate the effects of changing history records on the future, or the influence of the right wing extremism and militarism on people. Sure they seem harmless, just some escapists, idiots and psychos trying to ignore truth, change history records and say their ancestors weren't wrong in WW2. But the effects on real world is already showing. The hatred raised between peoples from different nations, things like haunterex mentioned, Japanese shops putting up signs saying "no Chinese allowed", Chinese shops putting up signs saying "No Japanese allowed", Chinese/Koreans refusing/burning Japanese products, and the Japanese government suddenly claiming Diao Yu Dao as their own, setting up flags on it and sending military ships driving away Chinese fisher ships, the escalation of tension between the countries and peoples is very real, and the signs of Japan's uprising aggressive militarism tendencies are very real, and if you think this won't hurt anyone, it will be too late by the time you are dragged into a WW3.

And US did play a big part in things leading to the current situation, like sheltering and supporting the right wing government, suppressing left wing movement in Japan, US-Japan Security Treaty, US giving Japan advanced weapons, things like that, so it's not really totally unrelated to Americans, or at least the foreign policies adopted by the US government.

If it's anything like the extreme left wing movements in North America, I'm all for it. Moore's fanboys are annoying as sin anyway.

Okay, that aside, I have never had any dreams of destroying racism. Anyone who does is either a) religious, in which case all the more power to them, or b) completely unrealistic.

Racism will ALWAYS exist. WW2 was hardly the start of it. Hell man, the world over has been screwing over people for cultural, religious, ethnic, etc. reasons since the dawn of time, and will continue to do so for ages. That's just fact. However, it's also a fact that racism, thanks to the HUGE amount of foreign investment (and thus immigration) into various countries, is also dying down slightly. Or rising, depends on the nationalistic state of the country at the time. I mean, yeah, people would be pissed about Germany denying the holocaust, but then, consider the influence that the Jewish diaspora communities HAVE on North America. Jews get any with Germany (and naturally stupidly self-righteous, uncaring generic white North Americans join suit without really knowing the issue), Germany gets angry at Jews, Chinese people feel left out because no one is pissed off at Japan. Ono!

Anyway, so what if the Japanese claim Nanking never happened? Sure, it'll get peple angry. Sure, it's denying truth. But does it REALLY have an effect on you as a person, beyond your stupid crusade against the Japanese? I mean, the Japanese are NOT going to start another war. They're in no position. Hell, if anything, they've been doing extremely well economically, why go to war? They'd be screwing themselves over. Saying "ONO ONO REVISIONIST HISTORY! BAD JAPANESE! BAD" is ignoring the kind of shit that goes down in your own country, in every fucking country in the world. Everyone has biases, just some have stronger ones than others. As I said, we celebrate the people who helped nuke Japanese civilians. I'm all for that. Japanese probably are pissed. I'm all for that too. I'm not too thrilled with the Japanese nearly killing my grandfather either.

But that really doesn't matter. What matter is the economic success of Japan now, the rising economic success of China now, the economic success of North America as a whole NOW. ETC. ETC. ETC.

Japan can say they won World War II for all I care. I know they lost (Or suspect they lost, since I wasn't there, OMG! REVISIONIST HISTORY MAY BE AT WORK HERE!!), and that's all I need. It's not like I'm going to go up to some poor Japanese guy and say "HEY MAN! YOU LOST WORLD WAR II! ADMIT IT!" I'm not a total ass, nor am I someone who is going to single some poor fool out for what his grandparents did. If he decides to approach me and single me out because, say, my grandfather helped construct ships that helped sink scores of japanese ships and kill God knows how many Japanese citizens, then I'll just ignore the bastard.

Honestly Dreamless, your belief that the rulers of countries are as stupid and petty as yourself is false. No one will sacrifice their current prosperity to settle a grudge several decades, or several centuries old. Anyway, if China wanted to start fighting, they'd have taken Taiwan back ages ago.
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Old 2004-10-15, 14:32   Link #34
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewLB
If it's anything like the extreme left wing movements in North America, I'm all for it. Moore's fanboys are annoying as sin anyway.

Okay, that aside, I have never had any dreams of destroying racism. Anyone who does is either a) religious, in which case all the more power to them, or b) completely unrealistic.

Racism will ALWAYS exist. WW2 was hardly the start of it. Hell man, the world over has been screwing over people for cultural, religious, ethnic, etc. reasons since the dawn of time, and will continue to do so for ages. That's just fact. However, it's also a fact that racism, thanks to the HUGE amount of foreign investment (and thus immigration) into various countries, is also dying down slightly. Or rising, depends on the nationalistic state of the country at the time. I mean, yeah, people would be pissed about Germany denying the holocaust, but then, consider the influence that the Jewish diaspora communities HAVE on North America. Jews get any with Germany (and naturally stupidly self-righteous, uncaring generic white North Americans join suit without really knowing the issue), Germany gets angry at Jews, Chinese people feel left out because no one is pissed off at Japan. Ono!

Anyway, so what if the Japanese claim Nanking never happened? Sure, it'll get people angry. Sure, it's denying truth. But does it REALLY have an effect on you as a person, beyond your stupid crusade against the Japanese? I mean, the Japanese are NOT going to start another war. They're in no position. Hell, if anything, they've been doing extremely well economically, why go to war? They'd be screwing themselves over. Saying "ONO ONO REVISIONIST HISTORY! BAD JAPANESE! BAD" is ignoring the kind of shit that goes down in your own country, in every fucking country in the world. Everyone has biases, just some have stronger ones than others. As I said, we celebrate the people who helped nuke Japanese civilians. I'm all for that. Japanese probably are pissed. I'm all for that too. I'm not too thrilled with the Japanese nearly killing my grandfather either.

But that really doesn't matter. What matter is the economic success of Japan now, the rising economic success of China now, the economic success of North America as a whole NOW. ETC. ETC. ETC.

Japan can say they won World War II for all I care. I know they lost (Or suspect they lost, since I wasn't there, OMG! REVISIONIST HISTORY MAY BE AT WORK HERE!!), and that's all I need. It's not like I'm going to go up to some poor Japanese guy and say "HEY MAN! YOU LOST WORLD WAR II! ADMIT IT!" I'm not a total ass, nor am I someone who is going to single some poor fool out for what his grandparents did. If he decides to approach me and single me out because, say, my grandfather helped construct ships that helped sink scores of japanese ships and kill God knows how many Japanese citizens, then I'll just ignore the bastard.

Honestly Dreamless, your belief that the rulers of countries are as stupid and petty as yourself is false. No one will sacrifice their current prosperity to settle a grudge several decades, or several centuries old. Anyway, if China wanted to start fighting, they'd have taken Taiwan back ages ago.
Then try explain Diao Yu Dao, try explain the Chinese/Koreans resisting/burning Japanese products. The problem is, this kind of situations raises more dangers to the political stability of all the countries involved. Why those wars in Middle East countries? If the hatred between peoples from different countries escalate, it's just easier for a psycho ruler like Hitler to manipulate them to start wars and massacres. Sure maybe the current rulers are wise enough, but that's not saying there won't be some future Hitlers getting into positions of power if the tension increases and peoples from different countries hate each other more and more.

no, I'm not going to single out any Japanese for what his grandfather did. But I'm going to single out those people who try to "correct" history in his own way, and try to erase anything leading to the truth of the past. I have nothing against the Japanese today, but I'm surely against any racism, right wing extremism, left wing extremism, militarism, etc. And of course Japanese right wing extremism is the topic here because it's about this incident in Japan. It's not about some shit happening in my country or any other country. If the topic of this thread is shit happening in Singapore you'll see posts about what shit is happening in Singapore. If the topic of this thread is about the Chechen terrorist incident, then you'll see posts about those Chechen terrorists. Now this thread is "CNN article about manga censorship" which is about Japanese protesting manga depicting Nanking Massacre, so you sure look at a thread full of posts about the Japanese right wing extremists. If you think online discussion forums serve no purpose then it's your problem joining one. If you think people shouldn't say their opinions and should just care about nothing in an online forum, then what's the point of an online forum? If you don't want to see people saying they dislike something, then don't come to online discussion forums is the best way.

Sure racism will never disappear, nationalism will never disappear, militarism will never disappear, right wing extremists will never disappear, left wing extremists will never disappear, terrorism will never disappear, crimes will never disappear, bad things will never disappear, but that doesn't mean you should just sit on your asses and ignore what's happening just because it doesn't directly affect you yet, that you should just stay there watching a thief stealing other people's wallets or fire burning down others' houses and ignore them just because your wallet is not being stolen or your house is not burning. Sure, it's your freedom to sit there watch bad things happen and ignore them, you can care about nothing, you can be apathetic, you can be stupid, you can be whatever you want, but if you want to tell others that they should also act like you and sit there doing nothing, if you try to stop someone else from catching the thief or putting out the fire, that's something seriously wrong with you.

and look at what yourself posted, "Anyway, so what if the Japanese claim Nanking never happened? Sure, it'll get people angry. Sure, it's denying truth", yup, and then you continue on to tell people that they shouldn't be angry? You yourself admit that'll get people angry. And yes people are indeed angry about it. If you are not angry about it, you don't tell others they shouldn't be angry about it. And when a lot of people are angry at Diao Yu Dao, a lot of people are angry at Japanese products, a lot of people are angry at the Japanese right wing extremists, this is surely a real problem, and can hurt real people, not something harmless.

oh, and while we're at it, try explain 911, try explain US invasion of Iraq, so the world is a peaceful place when the economy is good? and what do we do when the economy goes bad? start waging wars all over the world?

Also, exaggerating what others have said and putting words into others' mouths don't work at all for your arguments. Maybe you should concentrate on facts and the topic of this thread, instead of just pouring out exaggerated lines and trying to put words into others' mouths.

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-15 at 16:31.
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Old 2004-10-15, 15:07   Link #35
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Coming from a country that has gone through a genocide that is still being denied, this article makes my blood boil. The same bullshit is happening in Turkey, "oh it was wartime", "just as many turks died", "cmooon now ... it wasn't THAT many people that died ... 1.5 million? naaaaa ... way less". A bunch of politician won't apologise for any of it and still deny anything that happend, and successfully brainwash the people into thinking the same ...

Obviously there won't be any closure, if what happend is not accepted. The reason people in europe are more tolerant towards each other is because everything was apologised for and the majority is not going "oh it wasn't that bad ... you're lying"
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Old 2004-10-16, 01:12   Link #36
???
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Age: 11
Japan:

Military manpower - availability: 29,179,095 (5 October, 2004.)
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $42,488.1 million (5 October, 2004.)
Militairy Tecnology - Medium (5 October, 2004.)

China

Military manpower - availability: 379,524,688 (2004 est.) !!! OMFG !!!
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $60 billion (5 October, 2004.)
Militairy Tecnology - high (5 October, 2004.)


USA

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $370 billion !!! (5 October, 2004.)
Millitairry menpower - availability: 73,597,731 (2004 info)
Militairy Tecnology - Very high (5 October, 2004.)

Info: http://www.cia.gov/
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Old 2004-10-16, 01:57   Link #37
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before i start i saw a funny thing someone said

Quote:
Hmm... I think you are overestimating China's military prowess quite a bit while underestimating Japan's a lot. The JSDF Navy is quite strong, while China's Navy's military power mainly lies in its man power, which isn't much when the technology and equipment are so outdated compared to JSDF Navy. I think a study conducted in 2002 concluded that if there is really a war between China's Navy and JSDF Navy, JSDF Navy will more likely come out victorious as there are just too many outdated ships in China's Navy. And land troops won't be of any use if they can't even get to the land. There's no use of having 300 thousands people in the Navy in battle if they don't have proper ships and equipment, except maybe more food to the fish...
Popular Science Magazine Special edition "21st Century Soldier" (it was about the US Military) 2002/3:

there was a small article in the magazine (i still have the magazine if u want me to copy it down word by word) that said that the Chinese navy is a rival to the US (yea USA) Navy. It's Naval power is said to be a CLOSE second to the USA Navy. I believe the Chinese torpedoes are extordinary.

you also underestimate how much some countries hate Japan. If China all of a sudden decided to start attacking Japan or if Japan somehow attacks China i dout China will go alone. North Korea already has nukes pointing at Japan. (and Seoul) Japan doesnt have enough power to fight China, or North Korea. Why do u think Bush wanted to charge into Iraq but North Korea became a sensitive issue?


anyway to go back on topic

I seriously think the japanese are fscked up for changing history and honoring the same ppl that commited war crimes. japan also tried to claim an island close to Korea, and someone mentioned one tat belongs to china.
japan tries to take credit for LOT of things the Chinese and koreans made too. I remember around 1995(?) japan tried to take credit for creating KimChi... honestly, wtf?

Ppl say "let the past go, who cares?" WE care. maybe YOU dont care becuz ure not Chinese or Korean. Americans tend to say "well, my grandparent almost died" "my grandpa lost a leg" yea but Americans werent killed for fun by japanese soldiers practicing kenjutsu on them.

another thing is, if the Japanese stayed on their own land korea wouldnt be split right now would it? I think that reduces the chance of a nuclear war.
japan is just arrogrant sometimes, the previous decade showed that they believe they invented everything. it really ticked me off during the 90s when they claimed to have been the real creators of kimchi and tangjang. I wouldnt be too surprised if they also decided they invented kanji and were the true leaders of Tang.
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Old 2004-10-16, 02:01   Link #38
dreamless
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by ???
Japan:

Military manpower - availability: 29,179,095 (5 October, 2004.)
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $42,488.1 million (5 October, 2004.)
Militairy Tecnology - Medium (5 October, 2004.)

China

Military manpower - availability: 379,524,688 (2004 est.) !!! OMFG !!!
Military expenditures - dollar figure: $60 billion (5 October, 2004.)
Militairy Tecnology - high (5 October, 2004.)


USA

Military expenditures - dollar figure: $370 billion !!! (5 October, 2004.)
Millitairry menpower - availability: 73,597,731 (2004 info)
Militairy Tecnology - Very high (5 October, 2004.)

Info: http://www.cia.gov/
China supposedly has the "strongest ground troops" in the entire world, however ground troops don't do much if you want an invasion across sea, as shown in the PLA's total failure in its attempt to invade Taiwan in 1949.

For China and Japan Navy forces in 2002, from Jane's

China
manpower - estimated 300,000
ships - over 600 ships, a total of around 1,300,000 ton
no LSD, no cruiser (over 8000 ton), 19 destroyers, 33 frigates, 60 submarines, 250 airplanes, 25 helicopters.

Japan
manpower - estimated 43,800
ships - over 200 ships, a total of around 1,000,000 ton
2 LSDs, 4 cruisers (over 8000 ton each), 40 destroyers, 18 frigates, 23 submarines, 250 airplanes, 150 helicopters.

the only things China's Navy have in large amount are those countless outdated missile boats and torpedo boats... oh, and of course people, a LOT of people...

I don't know how can China's Navy be considered a close second to US Navy when it has no LSD, no cruiser, a pitiful number of destroyers, and no advanced technology like AEGIS. Unless you think their 300 or so missile boats and torpedo boats can be a serious threat to the Pacific Fleet...
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Old 2004-10-16, 02:14   Link #39
Phantom Blade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
China supposedly has the "strongest ground troops" in the entire world, however ground troops don't do much if you want an invasion across sea, as shown in the PLA's total failure in its attempt to invade Taiwan in 1949.

For China and Japan Navy forces in 2002, from Jane's

China
manpower - estimated 300,000
ships - over 600 ships, a total of around 1,300,000 ton
no LSD, no cruiser (over 8000 ton), 19 destroyers, 33 frigates, 60 submarines, 250 airplanes, 25 helicopters.

Japan
manpower - estimated 43,800
ships - over 200 ships, a total of around 1,000,000 ton
2 LSDs, 4 cruisers (over 8000 ton each), 40 destroyers, 18 frigates, 23 submarines, 250 airplanes, 150 helicopters.

the only things China's Navy have in large amount are those countless outdated missile boats and torpedo boats... oh, and of course people, a LOT of people...

exact words from the article of popular science magazine:

Quote:
The Chinese Navy

Though the United States and China maintain relatively cordial diplomatic relations, any increase in tension between the two nations would have to be regarded very seriously. With more than 1 billion citizens and a political philosophy starkly oppsed to that of America, China is a significant potential U.S. adversary

Dubbed the People's Liberation Army (PLA), the Chinese military is geared toward land-based conflict but does not neglect its navy, which is the only on in the world that rivals the U.S.'s seagoing force -- and is currently undergoing notable improvements. The PLA navy recently purchased two Russian-made Soveremenny destroyers equipped with nuclear-tipped cruise missles, and it produced four new Luhu and Luhai destroyer of its own, both of which are capable of firing cruise missles.

Yet the greatest potential threat to the United States from China's navy will most likely come from its submarine divisions. In the spring of 2001, a PLA navu Ming-class sub conducted underwater operations for more than a month before being detected by U.S. sensors. And perhaps even more unsettling to U.S. interests, the PLA navy is building new classes of attack subs (type 093) and ballistic-missle subs (type 094) that will be, in the words of a Pentagon official, "potent platforms." the Type 094 subs will be equipped with 16 long range nuclear missles.
uhm... yea.
u dont believe? i can scan the article.
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Old 2004-10-16, 02:32   Link #40
dreamless
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Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Time Warp/Future
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Blade
exact words from the article of popular science magazine:



uhm... yea.
u dont believe? i can scan the article.
umm... it's not I don't believe that you have read it from the magazine article, but it's more about this article's credibility. compared to Jane's figures, that article seems more like some casual sensational writing. I can find lots of articles from various magazines saying China's Navy is weaker than Taiwan's, but that doesn't mean they are really that weak. I'd rather trust a source which provides more details and real figures a bit more... I mean, Japan's Navy has enough of destroyers themselves, and their destroyers and cruisers have much more advanced technology. it doesn't say much when an article says that China has made/bought some new destroyers, then goes on to say it's gonna rival US Navy, unless the article can provide some more info in the comparison of data, technology, things like that.

About North Korea and China going together against Japan... I'd think that's quite unlikely considering the current political tension between China and N.Korea... Also do you think the US military would do nothing if Japan and China start a war? But then we are here mainly comparing the military power between China's Navy and Japan's Navy, not some world political/military situation prediction...

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-16 at 02:47.
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