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Old 2004-10-16, 02:47   Link #41
Phantom Blade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
umm... it's not I don't believe that you have read it from the magazine article, but it's more about this article's credibility. compared to Jane's figures, that article seems more like some casual sensational writing. I can find lots of articles from various magazines saying China's Navy is weaker than Taiwan's, but that doesn't mean they are really that weak. I'd rather trust a source which provides more details and real figures a bit more... I mean, Japan's Navy has enough of destroyers themselves, and their destroyers and cruisers have much more advanced technology. it doesn't say much when an article says that China has made/bought some new destroyers, then going on to say it's gonna rival US Navy, unless the article can provide some more info in the comparison of data, technology, and things.

About North Korea and China going together against Japan... I'd think that's quite unlikely considering the current political tension between China and N.Korea... Also do you think the US military would do nothing if Japan and China start a war? But then we are here mainly comparing the military power between China's Navy and Japan's Navy, not some world political/military situation prediction...
uhm the magazine is based on the US military. And the Ming Subs dont seem like old crap from WW2.
China's biggest weakness is mobility, which is the main reason it didnt do well in taiwan. i doubt japan would stop china if they wanted to invade japan. China's navy isnt as weak as u say it is. numbers never meant anything in war man.
there was a batallion of korean soldiers (200) who took on i believe 10,000 Viet soldiers with artillery. The only advantage korea had was terrain. they were even short on supplies, like amo.
american planes and navy was inferior to japan's in ww2... but we know wat happened. (the fighers, not the bombers)
panzers were 10 times stronger and more advanced than shermans and any other soviet tanks.
Iraq has no technology, USA has the best, guess wat's happening in IRaq right now?

hmmmmmm.... so tell me ur numbers again.

btw: it's popular science magazine, not some random crap written by a writer. It's a magazine to show the might of the US army, u think they would praise China Navy just for fun?
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Old 2004-10-16, 03:45   Link #42
dreamless
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hmm... interestingly, if you look up any Chinese military magazine, they almost always downplay their military might a lot in their articles, saying stuff like that China can't win a war against Taiwan. Yup those magazines are supposed to show the might of the PLA, but I guess they are more or less saying things to justify their military budget, and a propaganda like "we are weak, so we need to get stronger!" The same goes to US military magazine, they just want to say how dangerous the situation is, how their military power is "rivaled", propaganda to make people believe they need to spend more money to get stronger. If you can read Chinese, there are plenty articles online in both official and unofficial Chinese military websites that ridiculously downplay the Chinese military power, there are even things like "Japan's Navy can annihilate China's Navy in half an hour"

About Iraq, that shows exactly how important advanced technology is in today's warfare, where a group of Iraqi tanks fighting US tanks, and after hours of battle and all Iraqi tanks destroyed, not a single US tank got damaged. China have hundreds of missile boats and torpedo boats, but that won't serve any purpose if they can't hit any target, except maybe some big fireworks. I think only two destroyers newly bought in China's Navy have advanced FCS, and that's nowhere as advanced as what US has provided to Taiwan and Japan. those semi-outdated ships US provided to Taiwan are all more advanced than any ships in China's Navy.

Of course you may think technology and numbers don't matter, but I don't think there's any clear measurement of things other than technology and numbers. If you think China's Navy can beat Japan's easily and somehow successfully land their troops on Japan for an invasion, just because of... something like "fighting spirit" or whatever, well, you can think that way, but I doubt some fighting spirit can pierce through AEGIS defense, or increase the speed and accuracy of their outdated FCS... But then this is no longer the topic of this thread

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-16 at 04:05.
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Old 2004-10-16, 05:58   Link #43
Baba
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If you think you can judge a country's military power from a few newspaper articles or from statisitics posted on a website (especially the CIA's) I think you're badly mistaken. Moreover, when these country are two superpowers (USA and China) that aren't on such good terms with each others, I think desinformation must run high. And I certainly wouldn't beleive anything published by the CIA (....remember Irak?.....) or from a magazine that doesn't give sources.
I'm pretty sure both the US and China are trying their damnest to appear powerfull ('cause that's international status) while hiding the exact extent of this power. Anyway, when it comes to military I certainly won't believe any magazine or national agencie without some hard proof. I migh believe a UN report though.....
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Old 2004-10-16, 20:46   Link #44
Phantom Blade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
hmm... interestingly, if you look up any Chinese military magazine, they almost always downplay their military might a lot in their articles, saying stuff like that China can't win a war against Taiwan. Yup those magazines are supposed to show the might of the PLA, but I guess they are more or less saying things to justify their military budget, and a propaganda like "we are weak, so we need to get stronger!" The same goes to US military magazine, they just want to say how dangerous the situation is, how their military power is "rivaled", propaganda to make people believe they need to spend more money to get stronger. If you can read Chinese, there are plenty articles online in both official and unofficial Chinese military websites that ridiculously downplay the Chinese military power, there are even things like "Japan's Navy can annihilate China's Navy in half an hour"

About Iraq, that shows exactly how important advanced technology is in today's warfare, where a group of Iraqi tanks fighting US tanks, and after hours of battle and all Iraqi tanks destroyed, not a single US tank got damaged. China have hundreds of missile boats and torpedo boats, but that won't serve any purpose if they can't hit any target, except maybe some big fireworks. I think only two destroyers newly bought in China's Navy have advanced FCS, and that's nowhere as advanced as what US has provided to Taiwan and Japan. those semi-outdated ships US provided to Taiwan are all more advanced than any ships in China's Navy.

Of course you may think technology and numbers don't matter, but I don't think there's any clear measurement of things other than technology and numbers. If you think China's Navy can beat Japan's easily and somehow successfully land their troops on Japan for an invasion, just because of... something like "fighting spirit" or whatever, well, you can think that way, but I doubt some fighting spirit can pierce through AEGIS defense, or increase the speed and accuracy of their outdated FCS... But then this is no longer the topic of this thread

uhm... sure.

u can say things like that, but i seriously doubt the japanese navy would be able to take a full on attack by the chinese. ure saying that the chinese would never be able to land their troops on japan?
can japan can detect, attack, and destroy the Ming subs before they nuke and bomb all the japanese ships? YOu keep saying "outdated" but the subs are relatively new.

btw: can the japanese navy fight the chinese airforce? These days if you countrol the air u control the sea. Of course if u control the sea u control the war. (unless the countries are bordering each other)
once the chinese army lands, nothing much would stop them.

also i realized that the argument started with "if japan tried again, china would destroy them" all china has to do is hole up in china and even USA would be able to conquer them. i read somewhere that china has 1 million reserve soldiers ready to fight. I dont know if it's still true, but China used guerilla warfare even when they overwhelmed the Americans in the Korean war. american bombers were useless against the chinese soldiers who technically dodged those bombs.

yea, but im using something else to defend against ur arguments of a weak chinese army. I just read several places that even USA wouldnt be able to conquer china at this point. and although i doubt it, many ppl also claim that China would be stronger than USA in 10 yrs. Their mobility sucks, but it's probably true that by sheer power alone china would out do USA.

but wasnt this topic about a manga? and then how messed up the japanese are.
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Old 2004-10-16, 21:00   Link #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Blade
also i realized that the argument started with "if japan tried again, china would destroy them" all china has to do is hole up in china and even USA would be able to conquer them. i read somewhere that china has 1 million reserve soldiers ready to fight. I dont know if it's still true, but China used guerilla warfare even when they overwhelmed the Americans in the Korean war. american bombers were useless against the chinese soldiers who technically dodged those bombs.
Don't want to be picky but shouldn't it be WOULDN'T for it make sense? I'm confused after reading it.
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Old 2004-10-16, 23:54   Link #46
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US, and Japan are so against china re-unifying taiwan is because taiwan is a very good strategic point for launching attacks in Asia.
Say a war breaks out between China vs US/Japan, taiwan would be served as a stepping stone to launch attack against china, china will basically have to face 3 waves of attacks from taiwan, japan, and south korea to defend its whole coast line.
But if taiwan is captured by china, china would have the upper hand. Japan and South korea would be "cornered" to attack on northern/ northwest china.


About the Nanjing issue, If you read my germany/jew analogy, hopefully you will understand why chinese people still think of the japanese with hatred and so uptight about the ww2 issue.

Again, you wouldn't feel very comfortable with a country that honors its world criminals and teaches its youth generations with lies of their inhumane actions in the past.
Just think if Modern germany, after all these years, still denies their past war crime, changes the actions of nazi germany in textbooks, and with its politic leaders visit and honor hitler's grave in a public ceremony every year.
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Old 2004-10-17, 00:42   Link #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndrewLB
If it's anything like the extreme left wing movements in North America, I'm all for it. Moore's fanboys are annoying as sin anyway.

Okay, that aside, I have never had any dreams of destroying racism. Anyone who does is either a) religious, in which case all the more power to them, or b) completely unrealistic.
[snip some crap]
Honestly Dreamless, your belief that the rulers of countries are as stupid and petty as yourself is false. No one will sacrifice their current prosperity to settle a grudge several decades, or several centuries old. Anyway, if China wanted to start fighting, they'd have taken Taiwan back ages ago.
I think its kind of obvious you haven't been following much in the way of any news in the area. The various countries hatred of Japan extends into so much. One of the reasons why China always wants to create its own technical standards is because they don't want to use Japanese-created standards. The fact that some Chinese engineers are going to be nationalist like that, is just kind of amazing to me, more amazing to me then all those riots and near-riots caused by Japan winning the soccer championship in China (since soccer fans are apt to do that regardless).

Which personally if I was Chinese I would be satisified by Japan's policy of pacifism, even if its not directly admiting fault, its pretty close. Germany (also a pretty strong pacifist nation) is pretty unique in how its come to terms to its war crimes, I understand from Germans I've talked to that its really highlighted in their educational system. Japan's method of literally putting them in a foot note is closer to the norm. The book Lies Your Teacher Told You is a great book on American textbooks, I guess American war crimes have never been on the same scale as the Japanese, but we always seem surprised to hear about them.

And as far as a general war breaking out over Taiwan... that's not going to happen. If China invaded Taiwan tomorrow, I bet our first response would be to withdraw any navy we have in the area. And then calling sanctions on China, kicking them out of WTO and leading to a general depression in China (and perhaps another recession here). Which is why China wouldn't outright invade Taiwan. One advantage of the global economy is that any nation thats part of it can't attack anyone in the global economy without essentially attacking themself.

Though you never can tell, I was arguing in 2000 with a high school peer of mine who was enlisting in the National Guard telling me how he didn't have to worry about going to war.
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Old 2004-10-17, 04:14   Link #48
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Blade
uhm... sure.

u can say things like that, but i seriously doubt the japanese navy would be able to take a full on attack by the chinese. ure saying that the chinese would never be able to land their troops on japan?
can japan can detect, attack, and destroy the Ming subs before they nuke and bomb all the japanese ships? YOu keep saying "outdated" but the subs are relatively new.

btw: can the japanese navy fight the chinese airforce? These days if you countrol the air u control the sea. Of course if u control the sea u control the war. (unless the countries are bordering each other)
once the chinese army lands, nothing much would stop them.

also i realized that the argument started with "if japan tried again, china would destroy them" all china has to do is hole up in china and even USA would be able to conquer them. i read somewhere that china has 1 million reserve soldiers ready to fight. I dont know if it's still true, but China used guerilla warfare even when they overwhelmed the Americans in the Korean war. american bombers were useless against the chinese soldiers who technically dodged those bombs.

yea, but im using something else to defend against ur arguments of a weak chinese army. I just read several places that even USA wouldnt be able to conquer china at this point. and although i doubt it, many ppl also claim that China would be stronger than USA in 10 yrs. Their mobility sucks, but it's probably true that by sheer power alone china would out do USA.

but wasnt this topic about a manga? and then how messed up the japanese are.
no the question is not that Japan or US can or cannot conquer China. I already said that China supposedly has the "strongest ground troops" in the entire world, invading into mainland China is out of the question. I never said China has a weak army, just a relatively weak Navy (no carrier, no cruiser, no LSD, few destroyers, lots of outdated missile boats and torpedo boats). Of course if China decides to use nukes, Japan won't last, but unless China really goes psycho, the chance of nukes being used in a conflict is zero. And if China goes psycho and uses nukes on Japan, it'll pretty much start WW3 and the end of China itself. And you are exaggerating the importance of subs, sure they are hard to detect, but that's true to all subs, China won't be able to detect Japan subs and US subs easily neither (considering their subs are technologically superior, they are even harder to detect). And are you saying the destroyers, cruisers, helicopters, etc. etc. are useless against subs in a war?

the Chinese has no LSD, has no ships that suitable for a landing operation to invade Japan, all the ships are made for a landing operation on Taiwan, which is far different from crossing the sea to land in Japan. You are just believing in what you are told by a magazine, at least get some numbers and facts and decide for yourself, instead of being lead by an article. Else I guess you'll think China's Navy can't fight Taiwan's after reading some articles from chinese military magazines.

For China's airforce, currently it's horrible. US has straightly told Taiwan that the current China's airforce is inferior to Taiwan's. Most of their fighters are at Mig-19 and Mig-21 level, or even worse. It's going to change in another 5-6 years, since now they are buying and manufacturing new fighters fast, and some analysis predicts that after year 2010 China's airforce can take out Taiwan's airforce easily.

Also in Korean War the Chinese suffered huge loss, they were not technically dodging the bombs, they were killed in large numbers by the bombs. Don't say something ridiculous like "they technically dodged the bombs", that just shows you don't know the facts. During the Korean War, US suffered a total loss of around 160K (around 50K death), while the Chinese side suffered at least 300K death (that is, reported by the Chinese government after the war, the UN estimated much more) and a total loss of around 900K. And that is ground battle, where the Chinese army excels best at.

Next time read some articles with some real facts instead of just ridiculous things like "China's Navy can rival US Navy", "Chinese technically dodged the bombs during Korean War" kind of stuff. If China's Navy is so strong and Japan's Navy is so weak, does that mean the Japanese government are all suicidal psychos to claim Diao Yu Dao as theirs and setting military ships there?

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-17 at 15:29.
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Old 2004-10-17, 13:46   Link #49
hooliganj
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While I have no doubt that many countries tend to sweep their mistakes under the rug, that isn't really what's going on with the manga in question. ANN posted pretty good clarification/summary of the issue. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/article.php?id=5578

Quote:
Originally Posted by ANN
The point of contention is that the uniform in the photograph is not the uniform worn by members of the Japanese army during the 2nd Sino-Japanese war, and the Pacific War. However, when it was used in Kuni ga Moeru, Motomiya redrew the photo so that the soldier is wearing the correct uniform.

The Japanese Protestors cite 4 greviences with respect to the manga:
1. That the Nanking Atrocities require academic study to determine what happened.
2. That the photo, attributed to the Japanese army, is a Chinese falsification.
3. That Young Jump misrepresented history and unfairly influenced youth via use of the false photograph.
4. That the presentation is hurtful to those involved at the time, as well as their families, and thus the manga cannot be excused.
So it's not that the protesters are denying that it happened, it's that they question the sources. If someone produced a picture of a soldier in a confederate uniform performing such acts on an Indian woman and tried to claim that it was the true cause of Little Big Horn, I'd be suspicious too, and would probably condemn someone who retouched the photo with the proper uniform and published it.
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Old 2004-10-17, 14:39   Link #50
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Thanks for the ANN article, its a lot more informative then the CNN one.

Point 2 and point 3 (which is really just point 2 again) seem to be valid, though really more of a mistake and not terribly important. But making point 1 about requiring more academic study is the kind of thing they'll fine you for in France or Germany in regards to the holocaust. I've never read much doubt about what happened at Nanking.

Point 4 obviously I would need to read it, but it wouldn't surprise me if a manga in Young Jump was insensitive.
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Old 2004-10-18, 00:36   Link #51
Phantom Blade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
no the question is not that Japan or US can or cannot conquer China. I already said that China supposedly has the "strongest ground troops" in the entire world, invading into mainland China is out of the question. I never said China has a weak army, just a relatively weak Navy (no carrier, no cruiser, no LSD, few destroyers, lots of outdated missile boats and torpedo boats). Of course if China decides to use nukes, Japan won't last, but unless China really goes psycho, the chance of nukes being used in a conflict is zero. And if China goes psycho and uses nukes on Japan, it'll pretty much start WW3 and the end of China itself. And you are exaggerating the importance of subs, sure they are hard to detect, but that's true to all subs, China won't be able to detect Japan subs and US subs easily neither (considering their subs are technologically superior, they are even harder to detect). And are you saying the destroyers, cruisers, helicopters, etc. etc. are useless against subs in a war?
ok first: u replied to a quote where the person says "of course if japan tried that again china would just kill them" in other words if japan tried to invade and genocide the chinese. uhm yea, so that was the original topic in which u replied with the navy.

Quote:
the Chinese has no LSD, has no ships that suitable for a landing operation to invade Japan, all the ships are made for a landing operation on Taiwan, which is far different from crossing the sea to land in Japan. You are just believing in what you are told by a magazine, at least get some numbers and facts and decide for yourself, instead of being lead by an article. Else I guess you'll think China's Navy can't fight Taiwan's after reading some articles from chinese military magazines.
wat are u doing? reading some stats off a website and getting it from magazines too. of course, everything a website says is true, they know everything. The chinese magazines are controlled by the government no? as u have said propganda is ovbious. US magazines? although it's possible that the government influences it, but they certaintly do not control it.
im not talking about any magazine either, this magazine is the same magazine that said that china's mobility is weak. If they were trying to get more money for the US by propaganda why would they make the chinese ground army, what u say is the strongest in the world, look so weak?
so if china is so weak, i mean without a good navy u cant invade anyone, why does everyone consider it to be a fearful enemy? cuz of nukes? no one's afraid of the french.


Quote:
For China's airforce, currently it's horrible. US has straightly told Taiwan that the current China's airforce is inferior to Taiwan's. Most of their fighters are at Mig-19 and Mig-21 level, or even worse. It's going to change in another 5-6 years, since now they are buying and manufacturing new fighters fast, and some analysis predicts that after year 2010 China's airforce can take out Taiwan's airforce easily.
is japan even allowed to have an airforce?

Quote:
Also in Korean War the Chinese suffered huge loss, they were not technically dodging the bombs, they were killed in large numbers by the bombs. Don't say something ridiculous like "they technically dodged the bombs", that just shows you don't know the facts. During the Korean War, US suffered a total loss of around 160K (around 50K death), while the Chinese side suffered at least 300K death (that is, reported by the Chinese government after the war, the UN estimated much more) and a total loss of around 900K. And that is ground battle, where the Chinese army excels best at.
uhm my little military mistake book. (meaning the mistakes made in war) says that the total amount of chinese soldiers were 300k. it wasnt a huge wave of men running around as many ppl, including historians, believed it was. Maybe the book is mistaken, but they claim the chinese only sent 300k total soldiers.

Quote:
Next time read some articles with some real facts instead of just ridiculous things like "China's Navy can rival US Navy", "Chinese technically dodged the bombs during Korean War" kind of stuff. If China's Navy is so strong and Japan's Navy is so weak, does that mean the Japanese government are all suicidal psychos to claim Diao Yu Dao as theirs and setting military ships there?
yes, popular science is likely to be a bunch of crap becuz im guess all the writers there knows 3 times more than u. and a military scholar is inferior to u, very likely.


as for Diao Yu Dao, that's like saying....

were the koreans retarded to fight agaisnt a japanese army that outnumbered them by at least 3 times?

were the native americans stupid to shoot arrows at muskets?

is iraq so retarted to actually lift their guns to fight the US army?


u cant say "japanese navy is strong because they dared to oppose CHina"
wat is China to do? open fire on the japanese navy? wat are they going to say to USA? or to the UN?
(i actually havent heard about this thing, wat happened?)
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Old 2004-10-18, 01:15   Link #52
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I'm not really well-versed in the topic, so I suppose I'll be brief and hopefully not too incorrect in my facts.

I think this subject IS quite sensitive, and I'm not surprised that the press pulled the plug on the project.. I think there are a lot of reasons, the reactionary Japanese government is only part of it. Call me wrong if you can (and please do if you would), but I am going to call the Holocaust and the German attempt to "cleanse" their society a unique case. The Nazi retained massive amount of records detailing the specific procedures, timetables, etc., etc., of the mass extermination of various people based on their ethnicity, religion, sexual orientation, etc., etc. This is quite unthinkable why anybody would ever, put down undeniable proof of their "wrong doings", and then let people find it. (I found Himmler's capture quite amusing as well. ) I imagine that the Japanese did not keep such clean records, or that the records were destroyed one way or the other; so that the only proofs, other than the word of mouth from the victims of these atrocities, are nonexistant. (I don't know if this is true, but from all the accounts I've read of Nanking and others do not contain anything concrete from the Japanese, any Japanese).

Secondly, the rage and fury from the Chinese, Korean, Vietnamese, etc., etc. is positively astounding. If you go on any Chinese forum dealing with politics, more often than not you will find one thread or two dealing with the topics of Nanking and the Japanese Occupation (and quasi-colonialism which started way before 1937); and the sentiments expressed there are shocking. It's not just about banning Japanese cars or not watching anime, there are some who will say things on the level of "an eye for an eye" on the Japanese today. Are they serious?

If you had witnessed China from 1950 to 1976, you would have called it a mad scene. The country was led by people with no education but an iron fist of authority. Everybody believed what the "great leaders" told him, and everybody who doesn't agree gets cast out if not executed for having different ideas. Why did the US and other countries fear Communism? Communism is like Democracy, multiplied a hundred-fold, where the voice of the so-called "people" becomes the law itself. And most of the Chinese leaders today, being brought up during these times, have very deep imprints of the "party slogans" and "party ideologies" from those times.

Which is why now, half a century past the Japanese Occupation, there is still a lot of blistering rage directed at the "Japanese people", and I would not be surprised if there is going to be a riot or two in East Asia should this comic get published. What's worse, the Chinese, Korean and other EA governments may even get the idea to again ask for an apology from the Japanese government (while the Koizumi thing still isn't settled). It's really no surprise here, and I wouldn't be surprised if the order came from up above.
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Old 2004-10-18, 03:12   Link #53
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Blade
ok first: u replied to a quote where the person says "of course if japan tried that again china would just kill them" in other words if japan tried to invade and genocide the chinese. uhm yea, so that was the original topic in which u replied with the navy.


is japan even allowed to have an airforce?



uhm my little military mistake book. (meaning the mistakes made in war) says that the total amount of chinese soldiers were 300k. it wasnt a huge wave of men running around as many ppl, including historians, believed it was. Maybe the book is mistaken, but they claim the chinese only sent 300k total soldiers.



yes, popular science is likely to be a bunch of crap becuz im guess all the writers there knows 3 times more than u. and a military scholar is inferior to u, very likely.
You need to read more carefully, I was original replying to a statement that "They [Japan's military] wouldn't last a hour if China ever decides to invade." Of course I took what he meant by "decides to invade" as using conventional military forces, not "nuke the hell out of Japan".

Yup, Japan has an air force, JASDF, armed with modern advanced fighters instead of those J-6/J-7s in China's airforce which has only sight-range combat capaibilities.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...apan/jasdf.htm

heh, Chinese only put 300K people into Korean War? That is when the Chinese themselves already admitted that death toll is over 300K?

Chinese site :
http://www.chinataiwan.org/web/webpo...213/A4433.html
2.79 million soldiers goes to Korea, 380K death, total casualty 528K

US site :
http://www.turnerlearning.com/cnn/co.../kore_r14.html
total casualty 900K

British site :
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/korea.htm
total casualty 900K

Also fighting off against an invasion with no other choice is different from showing off your military might by claiming islands belonging to other countries. In those situations you described, they are invaded by others, to them they are fighting off invaders with no other choice. It's not like that Native Americans tried to cross the ocean and attack and take over European countries =.="

Well, if your popular science is just some random articles in some random magazines, then yup, they may well be total crap. Next time read some articles from some real military scholars and reliable source, for example Jane's. Or do you think people at Jane's know less about military than your "military scholars" and "popular science writers" of some popular science magazine?

And judging from the things you have posted here (presumably from your "popular science magazines") like "China's Navy can rival US Navy", "Chinese technically dodged bombs", "total amount of Chinese soldiers in Korean war is 300K", and the fact that you even question the existence of JASDF, I have to say, yup, your popular science magazine sounds not that reliable, and the writers sounds like they don't know jack about military. You should try to subscribe to Jane's (http://www.janes.com/) or read some articles by real military scholars like from West Point or somewhere. Not some nameless "military scholar writers" in some popular science mags.

============================

About anti-Japanese sentiments, yup it's very high, it's not uncommon to see in some chinese forums that people saying stuffs like "we should do a Rape of Tokyo", "kill all Japanese males and make all Japanese females slaves", "nuke the entire Japan", etc. etc. albeit I think most of them are just venting off instead of really trying to start a real war... And even titles like Grave of Fireflies are like taboos to discuss in chinese anime forums...

Also there are evidences in Japanese about the massacres, like some news report written by Japanese journalists on Japanese newspaper (that's why the descendants are trying to sue a Japanese newspaper). There are also Japanese soldiers' and journalists' diaries detailing the massacres. There are some brave Japanese people even now who are actively trying to pass the truth out to the public with plenty evidences in Japanese. If you are willing to look for them, there are enough evidences in Japanese records about those atrocities.

Hmm... comics or not, I don't think the governments of those Asian countries have ever stopped their efforts in getting a formal apology from the Japanese government anyway. What's the significance of one or two new comics, when they have whole museums built to show the atrocities commited by the Japanese in WW2? This is just one more brave and respectable Japanese mangaka showing the truth of history to the public. And the suspension of the manga just seems to stir up more trouble as far as I see, as it has practically put the manga in the spotlight, which few people outside of Japan know of before this incident... and it just reinforces the "Japanese government doesn't repent" image...

Last edited by dreamless; 2004-10-18 at 09:38.
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Old 2004-10-18, 05:27   Link #54
mememe
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hmm k only read the first page and about how j-ppl will deny it cause of history text book but has any of u stop to think what your own countries did that hasn't been written in the history books cause of shame, ours can also not be taken on face value, a lot of stuff that happened in WWI and WWII have been cut out cause the historian or the govement didn't want it in there. So we really can't blame japan 4 there reaction cause ours would be the same!
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Old 2004-10-18, 14:36   Link #55
eean
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Originally Posted by mememe
hmm k only read the first page and about how j-ppl will deny it cause of history text book but has any of u stop to think what your own countries did that hasn't been written in the history books cause of shame, ours can also not be taken on face value, a lot of stuff that happened in WWI and WWII have been cut out cause the historian or the govement didn't want it in there. So we really can't blame japan 4 there reaction cause ours would be the same!
Yes, this is kind of what I've been saying. Germans certainly have come to terms with their abuses, but that is the exception to the rule. At the same time though, denial is different from ignoring. We might ignore US abuses, but we'll only outright deny the most recent ones (and then probably only a minority will deny them, for instance with Vietnam). It's distribing that some Japanese apparently believe that more academic work needs to be done on Nanking before determining what happened. The kind of people who would deny Vietnam abuses in the US are the kind of people who wouldn't demand more academic work, since they're going to believe what they want to believe regardless.

And to Phantom Blade who said they weren't sure if Japan was even allowed an airforce: . And repeat after me "I don't have to look like a dumb ass, Google is my friend." The statement does show a basic ignorance of history (we didn't saddle the Japanese with treaty restrictions like we did the Germans in WWI for obvious reasons), but thats OK, however there's no reason in this day and age to remind other folks of it given the ease of access to information.
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Old 2004-10-18, 15:33   Link #56
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Originally Posted by eean
(we didn't saddle the Japanese with treaty restrictions like we did the Germans in WWI for obvious reasons)
Aside from forcing them into a democracy (probably our most successful regime change ) and that whole bit about how they can't start a conflict of any kind on foreign soil for any reason or they are instantly guilty of breaking the treaty, and several war crimes charges as well. That's why they don't have an 'army', 'navy' or 'air force', rather they have the 'self defense force', 'naval defense forse' and 'air defense force'. Furthermore, any planes possessed by the Japanese military are severely restricted in range capabilities.

All because of the insanely restrictive treaty we imposed upon them after WWII, although, admitedly, it wasn't nearly as bad as the one the allies forced on Germany after WWI.
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Old 2004-10-18, 16:46   Link #57
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I'm an Asian, so the Nanking Massacre is quite a relevant issue to me.

I don't like the Japanese censors equivocating on the cold facts of the event, but nor do I approve the Chinese government parading their history-fueled hostility as frequently as they do.

It's almost laughable to see a country that censors news and freedom of speech attacking another country on its lack of factual integrity.

What's really distressing is the kind of national tension this event produces 50 years on. I was reading about the open conflict between the Chinese and Japanese sports fans, and I just think the whole thing is pathetic. I'm positive that this feud won't escalate into another Gaza Strip, but we might just get the next worst thing.

I empathise with the Chinese. They got bullied, humiliated and hurt, they have every right to be pissed off. But really, 50+ years is a long enough time to feel vindictive in my book.
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Old 2004-10-18, 19:31   Link #58
The Yellow Dwarf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
What's the significance of one or two new comics, when they have whole museums built to show the atrocities commited by the Japanese in WW2? This is just one more brave and respectable Japanese mangaka showing the truth of history to the public. And the suspension of the manga just seems to stir up more trouble as far as I see, as it has practically put the manga in the spotlight, which few people outside of Japan know of before this incident... and it just reinforces the "Japanese government doesn't repent" image...
Don't underestimate the power of any artistic narrative. The difference between reading about Nanking in a history textbook, and reading it in a comic, about a person, or a group of persons caught up in story, is that there is much much more context and intimacy involved in the tale, no matter in which form it is presented. And comics, being widely-read by adults and children alike, and the fact that it is a wildly popular medium in the rest of the East Asian countries, means that it's going to create a huge response in the young minds of East Asia, who may have been daydreaming in class when that particular chapter of the textbook is being taught. (Let's face it, even the Chinese textbooks don't contain more than one or two pages on Nanking.)
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Old 2004-10-19, 00:01   Link #59
Phantom Blade
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamless
You need to read more carefully, I was original replying to a statement that "They [Japan's military] wouldn't last a hour if China ever decides to invade." Of course I took what he meant by "decides to invade" as using conventional military forces, not "nuke the hell out of Japan".
Quote:
LOL... I'm pretty sure they know that waging war is not such a good idea and besides Japan's constitution will never let that happen. Ever wonder why Japan still want America's military around. That's because Japan's military forces is really weak against any sort of attack. Their military is mainly for defensive purposes. They wouldn't last a hour if China ever decides to invade.
that's the quote u replied to. I dont see anything about china deciding to take boats to land troops as the only way to invade. China has long distance missles. I believe there really isnt a rule or a definition to "invading" that says u must land ur troops only by completely destroying the enemy's navy.

Quote:
Yup, Japan has an air force, JASDF, armed with modern advanced fighters instead of those J-6/J-7s in China's airforce which has only sight-range combat capaibilities.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...apan/jasdf.htm
the site itself claims they rely on the americans.


Quote:
heh, Chinese only put 300K people into Korean War? That is when the Chinese themselves already admitted that death toll is over 300K?

Chinese site :
http://www.chinataiwan.org/web/webpo...213/A4433.html
2.79 million soldiers goes to Korea, 380K death, total casualty 528K

US site :
http://www.turnerlearning.com/cnn/co.../kore_r14.html
total casualty 900K

British site :
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/korea.htm
total casualty 900K
i read the book wrong on this. however, it still says that bombers didnt bother them.

Quote:
Also fighting off against an invasion with no other choice is different from showing off your military might by claiming islands belonging to other countries. In those situations you described, they are invaded by others, to them they are fighting off invaders with no other choice. It's not like that Native Americans tried to cross the ocean and attack and take over European countries =.="
Korea was already invaded by the japanese when they decided to rebel.
Native Americans also attacked peaceful villages.


Quote:
Well, if your popular science is just some random articles in some random magazines, then yup, they may well be total crap. Next time read some articles from some real military scholars and reliable source, for example Jane's. Or do you think people at Jane's know less about military than your "military scholars" and "popular science writers" of some popular science magazine?
random? the whole magazine was a special on the US army with several other countries used as comparison.

Quote:
And judging from the things you have posted here (presumably from your "popular science magazines") like "China's Navy can rival US Navy", "Chinese technically dodged bombs", "total amount of Chinese soldiers in Korean war is 300K", and the fact that you even question the existence of JASDF, I have to say, yup, your popular science magazine sounds not that reliable, and the writers sounds like they don't know jack about military. You should try to subscribe to Jane's (http://www.janes.com/) or read some articles by real military scholars like from West Point or somewhere. Not some nameless "military scholar writers" in some popular science mags.
does Major Steve Eden, U.S. Army sound like hed be a bored writer?


really tho, this is just going off topic. u have ure opinions, i have mine. Unless the two go to war we dont know wat will happen.
btw: u said moral and spirit doesnt matter in war? psh, proven many times such a small thing as yelling in war makes an army stronger.
here's a small example of stats vs real. a computer simulated the World Cup games of 2002, this computer is said to have used stats from the best sources and is 90% acurate. The computer printed out that Korea would be out in the first round. i forgot about japan. Japan didnt do as good that year, but korea made asian record by going to the semifinals. it's a small example tat requires the less space to explain.




back on topic

Quote:
I empathise with the Chinese. They got bullied, humiliated and hurt, they have every right to be pissed off. But really, 50+ years is a long enough time to feel vindictive in my book.
if the japanese at least admitted it then maybe. Worse is the fact that they honor the "war heroes" Someone said it before, how would everyone feel if Germany had an Adolf Hitler day?

japan did something bad, more than once. in war they've always killed for fun, and they thought themselves a superior race. China and korea always fought them off and sent them back to their island, until they got modern weapons. They massacred more ppl after that.

I believe Germany formally apologized for the holocaust? and the USA government did the same over slavery and the japanese concentration camps. the japanese who were sent to the camps were even given money. how hard is it for the japanese to say "yea we did it, sorry" they go as far as to say "wat? that never happened.... CHINESE pROPAGANDA!"

japanese americans ive met (no not all, just the assholes) think it's funny to say to chinese ppl "Nanking" and say stupid things like "korea got invaded~"
and when HIroshima is brought up they act like innocent victims tat was brtually attacked. As if centuries of their failed attempts to conquer china and korea was justified
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Old 2004-10-19, 00:39   Link #60
dreamless
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom Blade
that's the quote u replied to. I dont see anything about china deciding to take boats to land troops as the only way to invade. China has long distance missles. I believe there really isnt a rule or a definition to "invading" that says u must land ur troops only by completely destroying the enemy's navy.

the site itself claims they rely on the americans.

i read the book wrong on this. however, it still says that bombers didnt bother them.

Korea was already invaded by the japanese when they decided to rebel.
Native Americans also attacked peaceful villages.

random? the whole magazine was a special on the US army with several other countries used as comparison.

does Major Steve Eden, U.S. Army sound like hed be a bored writer?

really tho, this is just going off topic. u have ure opinions, i have mine. Unless the two go to war we dont know wat will happen.
btw: u said moral and spirit doesnt matter in war? psh, proven many times such a small thing as yelling in war makes an army stronger.
here's a small example of stats vs real. a computer simulated the World Cup games of 2002, this computer is said to have used stats from the best sources and is 90% acurate. The computer printed out that Korea would be out in the first round. i forgot about japan. Japan didnt do as good that year, but korea made asian record by going to the semifinals. it's a small example tat requires the less space to explain.

back on topic

if the japanese at least admitted it then maybe. Worse is the fact that they honor the "war heroes" Someone said it before, how would everyone feel if Germany had an Adolf Hitler day?

japan did something bad, more than once. in war they've always killed for fun, and they thought themselves a superior race. China and korea always fought them off and sent them back to their island, until they got modern weapons. They massacred more ppl after that.

I believe Germany formally apologized for the holocaust? and the USA government did the same over slavery and the japanese concentration camps. the japanese who were sent to the camps were even given money. how hard is it for the japanese to say "yea we did it, sorry" they go as far as to say "wat? that never happened.... CHINESE pROPAGANDA!"

japanese americans ive met (no not all, just the assholes) think it's funny to say to chinese ppl "Nanking" and say stupid things like "korea got invaded~"
and when HIroshima is brought up they act like innocent victims tat was brtually attacked. As if centuries of their failed attempts to conquer china and korea was justified
well, if you say that if China decides to nuke the hell out of Japan, then Japan won't last an hour... that might be true, although I don't think that's even a remote possibility unless China goes completely psycho and suicidal...

Of course they rely on the Americans, since American airforce is even more superior than theirs. In China's case, they can't rely on Americans, and they have an inferior airforce. But that's gonna change fast for sure.

Hmm... so what's the name of your magazine? is it more reliable and professional than things like Jane's?

I never said moral and spirit don't matter, however it's impossible to measure moral and spirit and make predictions on that. That's why during World Cup 2002 the Korean team has very high odds in result bets. Few people thought they could win, as the moral and spirit and other unpredictable factors are hard to measure. How much moral and spirit do China's Navy have? How much influence can they have on the result of a battle? It's impossible to measure and impossible to predict IMO.

I agree it's definitely not some isolated case that Germany apologized to the world. Actually it's really an isolated case for Japan who lost a war and signed an unconditional surrender to deny its well-recorded atrocities in war. Considering even US, who has won the war against the Native Americans, admitted their atrocities, not to mention it seems there are enough US people who admit the invasion to Iraq is wrong or even illegal, or at least those people don't get attacked immediately by some extremists and told to shut their mouths. If anything, Japan is a really unique case, and actually US played a big role in it.

Quote:
Don't underestimate the power of any artistic narrative. The difference between reading about Nanking in a history textbook, and reading it in a comic, about a person, or a group of persons caught up in story, is that there is much much more context and intimacy involved in the tale, no matter in which form it is presented. And comics, being widely-read by adults and children alike, and the fact that it is a wildly popular medium in the rest of the East Asian countries, means that it's going to create a huge response in the young minds of East Asia, who may have been daydreaming in class when that particular chapter of the textbook is being taught. (Let's face it, even the Chinese textbooks don't contain more than one or two pages on Nanking.)
I don't think anyone in China don't know about Nanking, and I doubt anyone in East Asia who is educated enough to read manga don't know Japanese atrocities in WW2 beforehand. It's more or less a common knowledge already, not something need to be taught in school. I learned of the Japanese invasion and their atrocities way before they are taught in school. And I think this incident will just make this manga and the Nanking issue much more well-known than before anyway, even to those who never read manga.
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