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Old 2004-10-16, 16:40   Link #21
Enragin_Angel
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cagz: Uh oh...you opened pandora's box. You said the word matroska. Now all the matroska haters are gonna come post their complaints. I hope they don't waste their time just to get this thread closed.
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Old 2004-10-16, 16:58   Link #22
cagz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enragin_Angel
cagz: Uh oh...you opened pandora's box. You said the word matroska. Now all the matroska haters are gonna come post their complaints. I hope they don't waste their time just to get this thread closed.
Don't worry i'm prepared for a ton of hate
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Old 2004-10-16, 17:43   Link #23
exedore
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enragin_Angel
cagz: Uh oh...you opened pandora's box. You said the word matroska. Now all the matroska haters are gonna come post their complaints. I hope they don't waste their time just to get this thread closed.
Actually, I think he hit the nail right on the head - I don't like MKV because it's 1)a CPU hog, and 2)incompatible with my settop player.

To be on topic, tho, I do all my audio encoding for fansubbing in CBR (128kbit from DVD for regular stuff, higher for special projects). Of course, most of what we do is coming straight off of DVD or LD anyways, so we'd have to re-encode....AVI+AC3 = BAD.
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Old 2004-10-17, 04:48   Link #24
lamer_de
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Quote:
Originally Posted by http://www-user.tu-chemnitz.de/~noe/Video-Zeug/containers.pdf
A very common myth is that AVI canít handle variable bitrate audio streams,
and that MP3-VBR-in-AVI is a hack. Donít believe everything people claiming
other containers to be more modern are trying to tell you. Virtually every
video stream youíll find in AVI files has variable bitrate, and seeking works
fine. The same method for seeking (= frame-wise seeking) can be used on
variable bitrate audio streams, if the duration of one frame is constant, as it
is the case for MP3 or AAC (or HE-AAC).
So, now we got one document that says it's a bad hack and one it's no hack at all. I often reencode 160 or 192kbit CBR/VBR to 112kbit VBR. Anime episodes are not music video clips or movies that feature 5.1 digital surround sound (at least your usual raw doesn't). It's mostly speech and some bg music. I never ever encounted any problems when playing back vbr mp3 in avi, although I only own a windows box, but to my knowledge, basically every os including dvd-players with divx-playback compatibility can handle it flawlessly. As mentioned in the document, you might get problems when you edit the video/audio, but usually youre not supposed to do that. And if you want to, there are several tools that can handle vbr mp3 just fine. If you have vbr audio, using a simple direct stream copy in vdubmod will work without any problems. I reencode because it saves some space. If you can tell the difference between 128cbr and 112vbr, hat's off to you. I can't, so that's why I'm using it. Of course, if you encode to 233MB like all those GSD subs, reencoding audio gives so little space advance it's not worth it. If you encode to lower filesizes like 110 or 145MB, I believe it's of use though.

CU,
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Old 2004-10-17, 15:10   Link #25
SirCanealot
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Quote:
VBR mp3 in avi; is a hack pure and simple, a very bad one at that. It should never ever be used again in a legacy avi container for the reasons given in the faq. CBR is the correct way to go and to be honest there is not alot of difference if it's reencoded correctly.
Then define "hack" and "bad".
What WAS .avi designed for? It was NOT XVid and mp3.
And I think you'll find there IS different, when you 128cbr a VBR mp3 that hikes at 320kbs, you're thirding the bitrate on those areas.
And yes, the FAQ, for those too lazy to look it up, says:
Quote:
Why is using vbr mp3 in avis a bad idea?
We all discussed this issue at length in irc and Cyrius (suiryc) gave a pretty good explanation on irc which you can read here(http://virtualdubmod.sourceforge.net/?page=irclog).
To sumarize, the central problem is (imho) it works now. As soon as M$ changes the rounding function in their avi parser from ceil to something else, it will stop working.
Now, the thing that irks me about this is, is why would MS even change a setting like that in the parser, on a container they don't even develop any more?
Evil MS Programer: "Hey, let's change this parser setting!"
Other Evil MS Programmaer: "But, won't that stop VBR mp3 from working?"
Evil MS Programer: "Yes, but we're an evil mega-corp! We can do stuff like that!"
Both: *Evil laugh*

I mean, c'mon. How long has VBR mp3 in .avi been around? And it isn't broken yet. I'd put more odds on the next version of XVid not working on .avi, than VBR mp3.

Quote:
So, now we got one document that says it's a bad hack and one it's no hack at all.
Also happaned to come across this topic: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...t=VBR+MP3+.AVI
Guy seems to have some idea of what he's talking about... perhaps. Could be lieing, I guess.
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Old 2004-10-17, 18:34   Link #26
CompShrink
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Just to have more voices repeating the same, seemingly obvious statement, VBR is better. When the OP/ED or any BG music comes, the extra bitrate helps, and when there's coices, it saves space.

If the source is cbr 128, reencoding to 112vbr or whatever you choose will probably produce a noticable difference, so then it'd probably be a bad idea.

On thing though, since when do you need to use the same source for audio and video? It's really not that hard to resync audio and video... there should be only a few sync points, the begining of the episode, after the "sponsor" message if it's removed, after the commericials, etc. So just use the best audio and best video sources, they don't have to be the same... it's really not that hard... I've done this before and recieved no complaints.... plenty of people saw it, no one said the audio was out of sync.

VBR MP3 in avi plays fine everywhere I can think of... I use Linux, Windows, and occationally Mac, never had problems. I've heard even set-top boxes can support it.

As for the MKV, there's not much need of it for fansubs. The target audience needs the subs, so no reason to have them turnoff. Also, more compatable. And there's only 1 language track. So, what's the advantage of MKV for fansubs? I see none. There are cases, such as multilingual subs and DVD backups where it's useful, but not fansubs. Unless you're deadset on ogg audio I guess.
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Old 2004-10-18, 02:39   Link #27
cagz
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SirCanealot you've answered your own question with the url you supplied.

"This solution can be broken however, when your audio frames get larger than 1152 bytes, but this is very uncommon. Also, if MS would alter their AVI splitter to make the first decision instead of the second one, all AVIs with VBR MP3 would become unreadable (well, if it weren't for Gabest). I think it is for this reason that Avery Lee will never add VBR support to VDub. The guys who did the modifications of it had less problems with it."

Why would MS do this... hell if they get pissed at piracy enough one day or the movie industry bribes or gives them enough motivation to do so, why wouldn't they?

As for my terms "Hack" and "Bad" well.... hack may not be the best word for it, but it's the one most commonly used (so yes i'm being a sheep in saying it, too bad learn to live with it). I say bad because it is bad... it can cause demuxing and syncing/skew problems, yes it doesn't always, yes there are ways around it... but i still don't think it's right.

"I think you'll find there IS different, when you 128cbr a VBR mp3 that hikes at 320kbs, you're thirding the bitrate on those areas."

Anime raws do not come with hikes anywhere near 320kbit audio, your most likely going to get peaks of 192kbit MAYBE in most cases less. However there is always some exceptions.

CompShrink, you are correct with your point about changing audio streams, you'll find tho in the cases, of rarer or unpopular shows you don't have alot to choose from. Also resyncing audio from another source is a waste of time unless it's insanely bad.

Mkv... i've already covered this, but i will say it once more. It's a superior container and it supports everything you could want correctly. The only reason it's not used is because it's so cutting edge, current hardware mpeg4 players don't support it.
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Old 2004-10-18, 08:05   Link #28
SirCanealot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cagz
SirCanealot you've answered your own question with the url you supplied.
You may want to try reading futher into the post: try reading the areas which suggest it works fine, unless two very unlikely things happen.

Quote:
Why would MS do this... hell if they get pissed at piracy enough one day or the movie industry bribes or gives them enough motivation to do so, why wouldn't they?
Because that would be silly.
Okay, if you want to play it like that.
What if MS put a patch down in Windows Update which stopped XVid from working? DivX? CBR mp3? Uhuh? There's an equal chance they'll do that - eg: VERY low. MS can't just break something like that - nor would they. Why would you break something like that? Just to piss a few people off, who may be using VBR mp3 in .avi for legal or illegal purposes?
And even if they DID do that, do you think it would be permanent? I'm sure a patch would be out fairly fast; and if you're so clued in, what did that guy mean with his mention of "Gabest", hmm?
At this rate, we'd better dump windows and go back to .rm! Can't be ANY chance our shit will stop working!!


Quote:
Anime raws do not come with hikes anywhere near 320kbit audio, your most likely going to get peaks of 192kbit MAYBE in most cases less. However there is always some exceptions.
So you're telling me that a VBR mp3 with an ABR for 190+ kbs doesn't peak at 320kbs? Even if it does, that wasn't my point. My point is now you've side stepped my point. Okay, 140kbs peak; re-encoding to 128kbs = quality loss of 12kbs. Quality loss = teh sux. Happy now?
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Old 2004-10-18, 12:25   Link #29
cagz
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Happy, not really... it's turning out to be quite the vicious circle.
MS .... they do what they want, neither you or I can predict their intentions.
As for the reference made to gabest I assume he's talking about their avi split filter, which can support vbr mp3 in the avi format.

"So you're telling me that a VBR mp3 with an ABR for 190+ kbs doesn't peak at 320kbs? Even if it does, that wasn't my point. My point is now you've side stepped my point. Okay, 140kbs peak; re-encoding to 128kbs = quality loss of 12kbs. Quality loss = teh sux. Happy now?"

It MAY but it would not be for very long at all. 12kbit quality loss big deal.. the average anime fan won't notice. It's been proven even audiophiles can't tell the difference between things they claim.

It comes down to this, personal preference. Like it or lump it.
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Old 2004-10-18, 13:34   Link #30
SirCanealot
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No, my problems now is you're saying MS is randomly going to change a setting in the AVI Parser: very unlikely - why hasn't it happaned already?
And then when I mildly over exagerate about 320kbs peaks (which isn't at all uncommon, by 256kbit is more realistic), you complain, then when I under exagerate with a 140kbs peak, you complain again. What, do you want ME to strike a middle ground?

And the thing is, in my preference, your preference is leading to lower-quality audio in fansubs, so you can see why I'm not huge fan of your preference, right? :P
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Old 2004-10-18, 16:22   Link #31
JediNight
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SirCanealot: Your biggest enemy with audio quality is going to be hiss/click related. 95% of people couldn't tell the difference between 128 and 256kbit audio anyways. They use speakers which "hide" alot of the differences. I use 160kbit CBR for Fafner and it sounds good in my headphones which are very good for noticing poor audio quality. Any episodes that need it, we also filter for audio noise. Now I just need to get Koroshiya to make sure he gets me or Ikariya to filter the audio for his encodes, bc he isn't an audiophile and uses speakers so he doesn't notice ;\
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Old 2004-10-18, 18:24   Link #32
SirCanealot
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Heh, I don't know whether it's these speakers (they're just normal sattelite speakers+sub), but lately I've been able to hear how mp3 compresses the audio (especially at low bitrates), and it REALLY pisses me off, heh(I even manage to get pissed off at 320CBR and high bitrate .ogg when I've heard the originals. I swear I'm going to get an mp3 player with FLAC/WAVE support when I finally get one and screw compression :P).
I need to get some better speakers - I've heard good speakers can also help "cover" for bad audio, though I'm not sure how much truth there is to that, heh.

And, heh, I know about hiss/click. Luckily, nothing I've encoded has been very high in that department, since audio encoding/clean up has been on the "To learn" list for months, hahaha.
That's why 128cbr can be okay from DVD sources... 100% clean source = decent compression.

And yes, thank you for 160 CBR. Generally I feel like killing the person that said 128kbs is "CD Quality"; generally I find that 128kbs is simply the bitrate where someone like me will not DIE if he listens to the audio; anything above it is simple an improvement :P
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Old 2004-10-18, 18:38   Link #33
exedore
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There's another reason to set your audio to CBR, btw.

Set top players (like the increasingly popular Philips DVP-642) seem to have playback problems with VBR audio AVIs.

IMHO, 128CBR is enough for anime. It's enough that it keeps the songs nice and allows for a better use of true stereo than anything lower. That said, I encode all my audiobooks to 32kbit mono or 64kbit stereo, depending on the type (audio dramas like Dr Who get the latter).
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Old 2004-10-18, 19:27   Link #34
GarBhaD
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The main issue about this thread was re-encoding audio. It doesn't matter how much bitrate you put to it, if you re-enconde with lossy codecs you will loose a big deal of quality. That can be noticed even without headphones. In fact, the difference sounds even bigger when playing it in my TV.
Now, about quality in general... As I said before, I don't have an exigent hearing. While 128kbps is too low quality and I could tell the difference with some attention, it's not that much of a problem IF the source was pristine. In any other case (or even if the source is very good) 160 is recommended. And if you care for the filesize, then ABR or VBR is even better.
But please. don't reencode audio. If you have to add some silence for translation notes, then use appz that don't reencode and re-sync. (too much work? Then release notes on a txt! ) Anyway, very few groups add notes to the raws but most of 'em reenconde audio, which is deplorable.
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Old 2004-10-19, 19:12   Link #35
SirCanealot
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Why is 128 enough for anime?
Is anime some magic thing, like with the video, where you can pack it down to stupidly low bitrates?

What's "enough" for a show taped off American TV, then?

128 is NOT enough when the source has higher.
The only time I'd say 128 is enough, is coming from shitty DVD, with 196kbs DD2.0 ^^;;
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Old 2004-10-19, 19:49   Link #36
N-Bomb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SirCanealot
Why is 128 enough for anime?
Is anime some magic thing, like with the video, where you can pack it down to stupidly low bitrates?

What's "enough" for a show taped off American TV, then?

128 is NOT enough when the source has higher.
The only time I'd say 128 is enough, is coming from shitty DVD, with 196kbs DD2.0 ^^;;
It just is... it's good enough for something that will (usually) be replaced with a DVD at some point. 128 kbit MP3 these days it pretty good at reproducing the sound from almost anything except the guitar solo in Fade to Black...

I'd say a majority of anime sound comes from a dialogue, and you can compress that very well even at 96 kbit. The extra headroom is more than enough for the explosions or neko-nya-sounds or what have you in most shows. And the OP/ED... if you really want a good copy of those, you can jump on any P2P or anime OST irc channel and get the full versions in 192 or 320 kbit. Or hell, APE.

To quote that crazy chick, "Stop the insanity!"

--------

Err... so to answer the subject - There's really no reason to re-encode the audio unless it's in VBR. Before, I would've said "well, the audio will likely need to be normalized, at least", but there are tools now that can normalize MP3 audio without needing to re-encode. MP3 Directcut is one of those, IIRC.
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Last edited by N-Bomb; 2004-10-19 at 19:56. Reason: Forgot to address the original poster's question >.>
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Old 2004-10-19, 20:39   Link #37
JediNight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by exedore
There's another reason to set your audio to CBR, btw.

Set top players (like the increasingly popular Philips DVP-642) seem to have playback problems with VBR audio AVIs.

IMHO, 128CBR is enough for anime. It's enough that it keeps the songs nice and allows for a better use of true stereo than anything lower. That said, I encode all my audiobooks to 32kbit mono or 64kbit stereo, depending on the type (audio dramas like Dr Who get the latter).
What is the difference between normal Stereo and Joint Stereo? In my audio program there are options when encoding for Mid-Side Joint Stereo and Intensity Joint Stereo. Is it a good idea to leave these options checked or unchecked when encoding at 160kbit?

PS: Does WMP or Mediaplayer Classic decode MP3pro data at all?

EDIT: There is a thread on Doom9 -- apparently you CAN get an AVI w/mp3pro to play on WMP or MPC, but it requires some registry tweaks and other finagling to get working. So not worth the effort due to the fact the Encoder only goes up to 96kbit AFAIK, so those that don't have mp3pro would have the "tin can" effect of half the bandwidth frequency as normal.

Last edited by JediNight; 2004-10-19 at 21:06.
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Old 2004-10-19, 21:03   Link #38
N-Bomb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JediNight
What is the difference between normal Stereo and Joint Stereo? In my audio program there are options when encoding for Mid-Side Joint Stereo and Intensity Joint Stereo. Is it a good idea to leave these options checked or unchecked when encoding at 160kbit?
AFAIK, JS is a good thing as long as it's the MS and not the I flavour... I use the 'joint stereo' option in Razorlame, the 'forced joint stereo' is baaaaad. No use.

I gather it's bitrate savings = better quality at a given bitrate.
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Old 2004-10-19, 23:05   Link #39
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Joint Stereo = repeated information is saved as centre and then duplicated upon output. It works really well on low bitrate stuff (like 64kbit) but on 128+ it's better to use real stereo instead.
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Old 2004-10-19, 23:39   Link #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N-Bomb
It just is... it's good enough for something that will (usually) be replaced with a DVD at some point. 128 kbit MP3 these days it pretty good at reproducing the sound from almost anything except the guitar solo in Fade to Black...
You need better speakers/headphones then. There's a HUGE quality loss at 128, and honestly, unless you're partially deaf, it's a completely unacceptable bitrate for music. Hell, I can tell the difference between high bitrate lossy formats and .wav/.flac or cda.
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